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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's biggest tank battle

 
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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 3:11:48 PM   
RangerJoe


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I agree, however the debate in the video goes beyond the military aspects. I would state that he was great but also personally petty. Some of the complaints such as house arrest would be more like today's probation with an ankle GPS monitor where the person can't go beyond a certain distance from the receiver without setting off an alarm.

Just think, what he was trying for to a certain extent has come to fruition. A peaceful Europe where France is not militarily threatened by its neighbors and with trading agreements. Of course, he did not want the UK involved and except for Ireland, that will come to pass.

edited for clarity.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 7/22/2019 3:14:56 PM >


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Post #: 121
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 6:04:36 PM   
Capitaine

 

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Whenever it comes to Napoleon, I discount *everything* said or written by the British. Their visceral hatred of the man prevents all objectivity. I don't know who did Warspite's video, or what it claims, but if it's British or "modern" I have no interest in revisiting the topic with them. I spend and have spent much of my personal reading on Napoleon and have a good feeling about what his strengths and weaknesses were. I doubt a video is going to be more informed than I am.

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Post #: 122
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 7:52:05 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Whenever it comes to Napoleon, I discount *everything* said or written by the British. Their visceral hatred of the man prevents all objectivity. I don't know who did Warspite's video, or what it claims, but if it's British or "modern" I have no interest in revisiting the topic with them. I spend and have spent much of my personal reading on Napoleon and have a good feeling about what his strengths and weaknesses were. I doubt a video is going to be more informed than I am.

Do you really believe this?

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Post #: 123
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 8:08:18 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Whenever it comes to Napoleon, I discount *everything* said or written by the British. Their visceral hatred of the man prevents all objectivity. I don't know who did Warspite's video, or what it claims, but if it's British or "modern" I have no interest in revisiting the topic with them. I spend and have spent much of my personal reading on Napoleon and have a good feeling about what his strengths and weaknesses were. I doubt a video is going to be more informed than I am.
warspite1

The limitation of that view is laid bare by the very video you reject the chance to watch. So through your own bias (Re your perception of 'the British' and Napoleon) you refuse to watch a video that, had you watched it, would have confirmed your view is so wrong!

One of the most well known historians of the present age argues forcefully that Napoleon should be considered great... his nationality? British....

But then you refused to listen to a Southampton University study on the sea worthiness of HMS Queen Mary vs a contemporary German battlecruiser because you couldn't believe the university boffins could be objective; as though all British speak with one voice, all Germans, all French etc.etc. So essentially the only historical view worth listening to is, for example, a German commenting on a Briton or an American commenting on a Spaniard Because a Briton or Spaniard couldn't be trusted to speak badly of their countryman/woman... whoever they may be???? Bizarre. Try getting any two Americans to have the same view of FDR or two Britons to have the same view of Cromwell for further proof that your notion needs serious revision.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/23/2019 5:25:56 AM >


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Post #: 124
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 8:44:19 PM   
Capitaine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Whenever it comes to Napoleon, I discount *everything* said or written by the British. Their visceral hatred of the man prevents all objectivity. I don't know who did Warspite's video, or what it claims, but if it's British or "modern" I have no interest in revisiting the topic with them. I spend and have spent much of my personal reading on Napoleon and have a good feeling about what his strengths and weaknesses were. I doubt a video is going to be more informed than I am.
warspite1

The limitation of that view is laid bare by the very video you reject the chance to watch. So through your own bias (Re your perception of 'the British' and Napoleon) you refuse to watch a video that, had you watched it, would have confirmed your view is so wrong!

One of the most well know historians of the present age argues forcefully that Napoleon should be considered great... his nationality? British....

But then you refused to listen to a Southampton University study on the sea worthiness of HMS Queen Mary vs a contemporary German battlecruiser because you couldn't believe the university boffins could be objective; as though all British speak with one voice, all Germans, all French etc.etc. So essentially the only historical view worth listening to is, for example, a German commenting on a Briton or an American commenting on a Spaniard Because a Briton or Spaniard couldn't be trusted to speak badly of their countryman/woman... whoever they may be???? Bizarre. Try getting any two Americans to have the same view of FDR or two Britons to have the same view of Cromwell for further proof that your notion needs serious revision.


Well that is some new information you've imparted there Warspite. While my observations about the British and Napoleon remain intact, as a lawyer I know of the added credibility of a "witness" who makes a statement against [his own] interest. According, if you have a British opinion on Napoleon that is not a reflexively hostile one, I will watch your video with heightened interest. Wish you'd have said that to begin with.

Anyway, there's a reason my forum name isn't "Captain" or "Hauptman" or other nation's term. *wink

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Post #: 125
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 8:52:27 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Whenever it comes to Napoleon, I discount *everything* said or written by the British. Their visceral hatred of the man prevents all objectivity. I don't know who did Warspite's video, or what it claims, but if it's British or "modern" I have no interest in revisiting the topic with them. I spend and have spent much of my personal reading on Napoleon and have a good feeling about what his strengths and weaknesses were. I doubt a video is going to be more informed than I am.
warspite1

The limitation of that view is laid bare by the very video you reject the chance to watch. So through your own bias (Re your perception of 'the British' and Napoleon) you refuse to watch a video that, had you watched it, would have confirmed your view is so wrong!

One of the most well know historians of the present age argues forcefully that Napoleon should be considered great... his nationality? British....

But then you refused to listen to a Southampton University study on the sea worthiness of HMS Queen Mary vs a contemporary German battlecruiser because you couldn't believe the university boffins could be objective; as though all British speak with one voice, all Germans, all French etc.etc. So essentially the only historical view worth listening to is, for example, a German commenting on a Briton or an American commenting on a Spaniard Because a Briton or Spaniard couldn't be trusted to speak badly of their countryman/woman... whoever they may be???? Bizarre. Try getting any two Americans to have the same view of FDR or two Britons to have the same view of Cromwell for further proof that your notion needs serious revision.


Well that is some new information you've imparted there Warspite. While my observations about the British and Napoleon remain intact, as a lawyer I know of the added credibility of a "witness" who makes a statement against [his own] interest. According, if you have a British opinion on Napoleon that is not a reflexively hostile one, I will watch your video with heightened interest. Wish you'd have said that to begin with.

Anyway, there's a reason my forum name isn't "Captain" or "Hauptman" or other nation's term. *wink
warspite1

And 57% of the audience (presumably mostly British) voted that he was indeed worthy of the epithet great.

Your views are your views and that's fine. But I would hope you can see that your actions (refusing to open up to anything 'the British' have to say on any given subject because you 'know' what they will say) simply reinforces bias because even if they behave differently to what you expect, you would never know and so the biased opinion continues as a self fulfilling prophesy.





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Post #: 126
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 9:03:46 PM   
danlongman

 

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Warspite and Capitaine Credits to both of you gentlemen for engaging in some civil discussion of
a matter many find contentious. Boney was a warrior and may have been "great" but he wasn't great
in the eyes of the various monarchs and marshals he was in the habit of humiliating.

Anyway I was wondering about the petshop and if Rachel Pilson has been around. My daughter went
over to Japan on the airplane and said she was not there. I even gave her a picture so she would
know how humid Rachel would look in the hollywood mash-up.


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Post #: 127
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 9:10:15 PM   
ncc1701e


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Napoleon won at Kursk, world's biggest horse battle in history. Period. Anyone saying the contrary is against reality.

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Post #: 128
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 9:11:15 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: danlongman

Anyway I was wondering about the petshop and if Rachel Pilson has been around. My daughter went
over to Japan on the airplane and said she was not there. I even gave her a picture so she would
know how humid Rachel would look in the hollywood mash-up.

soojan

danlongmanaman he BacK exciting for all! danlongmanman is friends. sad news to for danlongmanam. rachel pilsem us was taken in mystery van machin by bowler hat man he wear pink knee boots like landsers but don't tell stalin Bad for rachel if hollywood mash-up bad for boots but bowler hat man just make bad smells and pet ship closed with saw dust for kitchen units. poor! Mr wilkes close dpwm mR wilkes is my friends to much friends.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/22/2019 9:55:38 PM >


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Post #: 129
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 9:17:51 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Napoleon won at Kursk, world's biggest horse battle in history. Period. Anyone saying the contrary is against reality.
warspite1

No! Napoleon won at Thirsk. The short-arse was riding the mare 'Little Corporal' in the 3:15 and came home by a nose. He did really well though as his piles were playing havoc with his concentration from the halfway mark.

You see, to suggest people from these islands are biased toward Napoleon is totally false. I am from England and yet I think Napoleon was an over-rated, short-arsed, corpulent failure. and I'm not even biased.








< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/22/2019 9:25:25 PM >


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Post #: 130
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 9:19:17 PM   
Capitaine

 

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I have watched the first 20 minutes or so of the video and do appreciate the first scholar's remarks about the "Greatness of Napoleon". All true. I will go back to watch the rest when I have more time but what I heard of the second gentleman's thesis was that "there was so much more Napoleon could have done, but didn't." Well, isn't that grand? To judge men on theoretical nonaccomplishments instead of what they actually did accomplish. As the first scholar said, Napoleon was defeated. Many great men are defeated at some point. But to contest whether Napoleon was "great" is a truly modern exercise that I decline to characterize politically.

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Post #: 131
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 9:26:38 PM   
danlongman

 

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I am more sad to hear of Mister van Machine than anything.
It was so windy when that happened that I ate a curry.
Then the wind turned bad, very bad and my eyes had tears
so big. Where us Rachel Pilsen going to be now?
It is a summer line up tomorrow! You bet!
Cheers Warspite! I go now to look far.

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Post #: 132
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 9:29:41 PM   
warspite1


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Do you realise danlongman, that all that nonsense was all of 5 years ago! My how time flies

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 9:38:45 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

"On their own", they already did the hardest part: with the big prize, the annihilation of a whole German Army



Where did the Soviets get their military technology from?
warspite1

Guatemala and Peru



No gentleman, it was Brazil and its peanut brittle

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 7/22/2019 9:43:13 PM >


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Post #: 134
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 9:45:06 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

"On their own", they already did the hardest part: with the big prize, the annihilation of a whole German Army



Where did the Soviets get their military technology from?
warspite1

Guatemala and Peru



No gentleman, it was Brazil and its peanut brittle
warspite1

There's always one. There we were having a high-brow, cerebral conversation when........


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Post #: 135
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 9:48:08 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I can't see why I'm not allowed to mention the greatest revolution of all.



Thank you for mentioning the Industrial Revolution.



Nope. Gordon Childe's Neolithic revolution is the one I mentioned.

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Post #: 136
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 10:03:41 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

"On their own", they already did the hardest part: with the big prize, the annihilation of a whole German Army



Where did the Soviets get their military technology from?
warspite1

Guatemala and Peru



No gentleman, it was Brazil and its peanut brittle
warspite1

There's always one. There we were having a high-brow, cerebral conversation when........



Read most of it, got too weighty for my current mood, so..... there

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 10:08:29 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 40083
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

"On their own", they already did the hardest part: with the big prize, the annihilation of a whole German Army



Where did the Soviets get their military technology from?
warspite1

Guatemala and Peru



No gentleman, it was Brazil and its peanut brittle
warspite1

There's always one. There we were having a high-brow, cerebral conversation when........



Read most of it, got too weighty for my current mood, so..... there
warspite1

Too weighty? Yes I can understand why trying to understand how Guatemala gave lend-lease aid to the USA during WWII would have had you desperate for the comparative sense that is the life and times of Mr Wilkes (and his pet shop), bowler hat man (and his bad smells) and Rachel Pilsem (and her Landser influenced pink knee-length boots). The latter at least makes sense....

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Post #: 138
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 10:52:53 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Your hysterical laugh says a lot about you.

So the Guatemalan and Peruvian inputs that the US needed were a big f*cking laugh eh?

While the Soviets must say thanks for all the manufactures and raw materials.

I know, who cares about these worthless untermenschen.

There's something even funnier, the hilarious fact that you
are going down as a civilisation.

Capitalism is currently migrating to the east, leaving behind ruins and impoverished working and middle classes. It's happening as we speak.

That's funny too? You're gunna love it!



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Post #: 139
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 11:03:35 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Capitalism is currently migrating to the east, leaving behind ruins and impoverished working and middle classes. It's happening as we speak.


Is this a seasonal migration? If so when will it be coming back?

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Post #: 140
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 3:45:18 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Your hysterical laugh says a lot about you.

warspite1

Er...okay.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

So the Guatemalan and Peruvian inputs that the US needed were a big f*cking laugh eh?

While the Soviets must say thanks for all the manufactures and raw materials.

warspite1

You made a comparison between suppliers to the US and suppliers to third parties under a lend-lease type arrangement. They are in no way the same thing. I gave you an opportunity to explain what you meant but you declined - and instead simply made some deflecting comment about gold-laden destroyers to South Africa (which you also refused to explain). Please, I ask you once again to explain why you think these are the same. How much of the lend-lease goods sent to the USSR were repaid? As I said, US imports from countries such as Peru and Guatemala were nothing to do with lend-lease and were paid for as a commercial agreement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I know, who cares about these worthless untermenschen.

warspite1

This is simply more deflection and is a comment totally without merit. I have explained time and time again on this and other forums (we were largely on the same side in a debate on the WITP-AE forum not so long ago) that the Soviet peoples sacrifice in WWII needs to be recognised. Interestingly you have brought up the U-word. You only have to read my post 5 here (not to mention the others) to understand why your comment is in rather poor taste and of course, totally false.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

There's something even funnier, the hilarious fact that you
are going down as a civilisation.

Capitalism is currently migrating to the east, leaving behind ruins and impoverished working and middle classes. It's happening as we speak.

That's funny too? You're gunna love it!

warspite1

I am not sure who 'you' is but this whole section of your post is your opinion on a modern day political matter - so has no place on this forum.







< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/23/2019 3:50:35 AM >


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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 11:02:41 AM   
Aurelian

 

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NVM

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 7/23/2019 1:45:03 PM >


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Post #: 142
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 12:49:46 PM   
Capitaine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
And 57% of the audience (presumably mostly British) voted that he was indeed worthy of the epithet great.

I can't believe you cite this as evidence that Britain isn't reflexively biased against Napoleon. The 57% FOR Napoleon being "great" isn't an approval or admiration poll. It's raw greatness. That means 43% of the British audience didn't even consider him a "great man", whether friend or foe. That proves my point. As does the second debater whose main line of attack on Napoleon was character assassination -- the time honored method of British argument.

In fact, only in Britain would the premise of the debate even be entertained -- Whether Napoleon was even a great man. Just a pathetic exercise only a fan of the Peninsular War could appreciate.

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Post #: 143
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 2:49:46 PM   
Lobster


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How great was he when he lost the entire French fleet and abandoned his army in Egypt? And then again when he led his army into Russia and the weather turned against him? He abandoned his army in Russia. It seems as long as he did not have to contend with the sea or the weather he was great. Throw either of those into the mix and he is a failure. I'm not saying this for a nay or yea. I'm simply stating the facts. Sure he did great in Western Europe. Elsewhere he was mediocre. Not even mentioning the final gutting of the French overseas holdings.

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 3:01:20 PM   
Orm


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How great was any one of the 'great' when you scrutinize their actions?

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 3:04:03 PM   
Orm


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Thank you, Zorch, for sharing.

Although I get dubious when I read "On 5 July 1943 German forces launched a massive surprise attack...". A surprise attack?! I have always thought it was anything but a surprise attack.

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 4:27:37 PM   
Yogi the Great


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He must have been great. Here we are in 2019 discussing what happened in 1943 yet feeling the need to argue about Napoleon.

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Post #: 147
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 4:43:03 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

He must have been great. Here we are in 2019 discussing what happened in 1943 yet feeling the need to argue about Napoleon.


HA! Good point.

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Post #: 148
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 5:17:25 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
And 57% of the audience (presumably mostly British) voted that he was indeed worthy of the epithet great.

I can't believe you cite this as evidence that Britain isn't reflexively biased against Napoleon. The 57% FOR Napoleon being "great" isn't an approval or admiration poll. It's raw greatness. That means 43% of the British audience didn't even consider him a "great man", whether friend or foe. That proves my point. As does the second debater whose main line of attack on Napoleon was character assassination -- the time honored method of British argument.

In fact, only in Britain would the premise of the debate even be entertained -- Whether Napoleon was even a great man. Just a pathetic exercise only a fan of the Peninsular War could appreciate.

warspite1

So let me make sure I have this straight. Despite every post confirming otherwise, TulliusDetritus (what I’ve said is in black and white, how can you simply ignore that???) continues to accuse me of stating the very opposite of what I’ve posted. And now this……

quote:

I can't believe you cite this as evidence that Britain isn't reflexively biased against Napoleon. The 57% FOR Napoleon being "great" isn't an approval or admiration poll. It's raw greatness. That means 43% of the British audience didn't even consider him a "great man", whether friend or foe. That proves my point. As does the second debater whose main line of attack on Napoleon was character assassination -- the time honored method of British argument.

In fact, only in Britain would the premise of the debate even be entertained -- Whether Napoleon was even a great man. Just a pathetic exercise only a fan of the Peninsular War could appreciate.


So what have I said to bring this on?

I first mentioned Napoleon in post 119. I simply referred to a debate that I watched and that I found interesting. I did not pass any judgement or make any comment on the contents, just hoped that my fellow forumites might find this of interest.

In response to this Capitaine posted:

quote:

I discount *everything* said or written by the British. Their visceral hatred of the man prevents all objectivity. I don't know who did Warspite's video, or what it claims, but if it's British or "modern" I have no interest in revisiting the topic with them.


I then answered that the video, did not support capitaine's view (that ‘the British’ are visceral in their hatred of Napoleon) i.e. here was a well known, historian who happens to be British defending Napoleon – and indeed going further by stating he should be classed in the Great category.

I further posted that 57% of a, presumably, largely British audience agreed with him.

And that is what I said.

So, if you took the time to read what you wrote and what I responded with, I was simply making the point that ‘the British’, whoever this uniform-unthinking, yet like-minded mass you like to talk about is are not, to a man, anti-Napoleon, they are not, to a man, filled with hatred, visceral or otherwise when hearing his very name.

But you, like TulliusDetritus, do not appear happy with what I’ve said, you have to falsify it and make it into something its not. What I said suddenly turned into “cit(ing) this as evidence that Britain* isn't reflexively biased against Napoleon". You continue with "The 57% FOR Napoleon being "great" isn't an approval or admiration poll".

* I ask again who is this mass of people who all think and act the same way????

But please tell me where I attempted to cite any ‘evidence’ that ‘the British’ (whoever they are) are not “reflexively biased against Napoleon” or that I advertised the 57% as an approval or admiration poll??

I have attempted nothing of the sort, I simply sought to prove your unwillingness to listen to anything and everything by a Briton (because you know ‘the British’ all hate Napoleon) to be wrong.

As for the rest of it. You have your opinion, you are passionate about Napoleon, which I respect, and you are fully entitled to that opinion. I would simply ask that you respect mine (not that I’ve even given an opinion here) and not put words in my mouth.



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/23/2019 5:43:38 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Capitaine)
Post #: 149
RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/23/2019 6:14:11 PM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1046
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline
You're one of the most nationally partisan people on this board, Warspite. If you can't understand my points, coming from a lawyer, the problem is with you my friend. You're just throwing things out there to divert the real charges, and I typically have no interest in further debate with someone who does that.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 150
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