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BRM-1/1K in AB? - 7/5/2019 2:34:37 PM   
exsonic01

 

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Was this unit discussed before? I think we did, but I can't recall correctly.

I think Russians in this game really need this recon unit. BRM-1/1K have IR (gunner's thermal sight only but better than nothing) Tall Mike battlefield radar (not sure which wavelength), and laser rangefinder, so it should have really good chance to spot something from further distance, if the target is in LoS. Maybe it would be better to give BRM good LOS. And because it has radar and IR together, its LOS should be less influenced by weather conditions.

One think I'm not sure is, was BRM-1/1K the battalion recon? Or regimental/brigade/divisional recon? This should influence the price of BRM-1/1K. But anyway, vehicle with good spotting ability would be really helpful for Red army in AB. Also, Wikipedia says Polish army also used BRM-1, so I guess DDR had it too? I'm not sure about this though,

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 7/5/2019 2:36:19 PM >
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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 7/6/2019 4:39:23 PM   
nikolas93TS


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As far as I am aware, only Soviet vehicle produced with thermals in 1980s was PRP-4, and possibly a very limited number of battalion level command T-80UK. As I understand, PRP-4 (and earlier PRP-3 which used illumination flare projectors instead of thermals) is an artillery fire control vehicles. It was planned to be introduced by DDR, but fall of Berlin wall put an end to that. A 50 element thermal imager Agava-1 was available in 1983 for use on the T-80BV but the Soviet Army decided to wait for a 128 element detector that would become Agava-2. Since they didn't have bulk production of the semi-conductor needed to make those detectors at the time, it delayed the introduction of a tank thermal sight by almost a decade.

As far as BRM-1, I think one vehicle was assigned to each recce company of a motorized rifle, tank or artillery unit. In Warsaw Pact, it seems it was not so common, for example I have noted that Czechoslovakia and DDR had only 15 vehicles each. In any case, it is not in game because we haven't modeled ground radars. In my mind, ground radars could identify enemy units with yellow NATO symbols similar or identical in manner that you have at game start, but it would give significant advantage to player and I guess maybe nothing for AI, but I might be wrong on that.

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 7/6/2019 7:05:53 PM   
exsonic01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nikolas93TS

As far as I am aware, only Soviet vehicle produced with thermals in 1980s was PRP-4, and possibly a very limited number of battalion level command T-80UK. As I understand, PRP-4 (and earlier PRP-3 which used illumination flare projectors instead of thermals) is an artillery fire control vehicles. It was planned to be introduced by DDR, but fall of Berlin wall put an end to that. A 50 element thermal imager Agava-1 was available in 1983 for use on the T-80BV but the Soviet Army decided to wait for a 128 element detector that would become Agava-2. Since they didn't have bulk production of the semi-conductor needed to make those detectors at the time, it delayed the introduction of a tank thermal sight by almost a decade.

As far as BRM-1, I think one vehicle was assigned to each recce company of a motorized rifle, tank or artillery unit. In Warsaw Pact, it seems it was not so common, for example I have noted that Czechoslovakia and DDR had only 15 vehicles each. In any case, it is not in game because we haven't modeled ground radars. In my mind, ground radars could identify enemy units with yellow NATO symbols similar or identical in manner that you have at game start, but it would give significant advantage to player and I guess maybe nothing for AI, but I might be wrong on that.

Thank you for your answer.

Regarding radar, it cannot show the yellow icon of "all units" on all over the map. It is ground based radar, and electromagnetic wave from radar cannot be bent (unless there is Black hole or super heavy gravity), so mountains, buildings, any other obstacles can block the radar signal and reflected signal, just like current IR and visible wavelength signals blocked by all obstacles. In other words, radar signal is also "light" just in different wavelength.

So, you can just regard radar signal as the same with IR or visible light, which can be blocked by various obstacle of the map, just like optics and IR blocked. However, for radar, maximum possible range for "seeing" unit should be increased when compared to visible light optics. But you should looking for any maximum / effective range of Tall Mike radar from any literature. I think it should have better detection range for vehicles than infantry. Also, resolution is also important for decision of effective range for observation.

Also, radar signal might be able to see through the smoke and fog. But now this requires some information about Tall Mike radar. As far as I know Tall Mike is not using millimeter wave signal (I'm not sure). So the degree of "seeing through fog and smoke" depends on which wavelength it is using, and how strong the signal is. For AB, I think it would be OK to assume that Tall Mike radar signal only suffers very small interference due to bad weather or smoke. (like 10~15% only, maybe?) But, based on fact that heavy thunderstorm condition can interfere almost all possible wavelength, really bad weather like thunderstorm should also interfere with Tall Mike radar and millimeter wave radar.



One other important aspect is resolution. You studied thermal imaging system of cold war for this game, and we all know 1st gen thermals had bad resolution. If the unit is too far, at least gunners can see some bright thermal signals on the screen, but they can't tell what is that, or any detail of the target. (But from my experience of SB Pro, I think even 1st gen thermals is OK-ish to tell the detail and recognize the tank, up to 2000m~2500m)

For tall mike radar, I don't know about its resolution. But seeing the size of radar dish is not that big (resolution of any telescope depends on diameter of lens, including radio telescope) I guess the tall mike radar's resolution would not be in good level. From pictures, I think radar dish has dimension of about 1m in lateral direction.

I think, it would be good to detect moving target, especially the faster the better. But if the target is stationary, radar operator couldn't tell what is the reflected signal. It would be hard to distinguish rocks, houses or buildings, or tank or vehicle if the target is not moving at all. So, if AB game system allows, please give different spotting chance to stationary target and moving target.

Because of this resolution issue, practical maximum range would be much shorter than theoretical maximum range of detection for Tall Mike radar. From my guess, for Tall Mike radar in AB, it would be OK to give detection range of 6~7km against the vehicle, and 1/3 against infantry, and give less interference factor due to smoke or weather than visible light. But this is just purely my guess. In short, I think Tall Mike radar would be very close to "slightly better or comparable to thermal sight" in current AB sight/spotting system.

If Soviets had one BRM-1 vehicle in recce company per unit (I guess battalion in this case? or brigade?), than it should moderate price for Russians. But if DDR and Czech had only a few, then BRM-1 should be very expensive for those nations. May I ask about Polish?


< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 7/6/2019 7:12:02 PM >

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 7/6/2019 9:47:44 PM   
nikolas93TS


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Motorized or tank regiment. There was one BRM-1 as company headquarters, one tracked platoon with 3 vehicles (usually BMP-1 or BMP-2, PT-76 for second line formations), wheeled platoon with 4x BRDM-2 and motorcycle section with 3x M-72/K-750V/Ural-3 motorcycles.

Poles purchased 22 BWR-1D (BRM-1K) in 1987, and they still use them and had recently modernized them. Czechs started producing their own variant, BPzV, but I am not sure if those 15 pieces (data is from 1988) I mentioned are domestic production or a batch of original Soviet vehicles (likely latter), as they apparently have made quite a large number of BPzV. I think Hungarians possesed 12 BRM-1K .

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 7/7/2019 1:07:03 AM   
exsonic01

 

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Thanks to share the data. I also guess Czech data might be the Soviet vehicles.

For BRM-1, I guess USSR should have relatively cheap or moderate price. But for other PACT nations, it should be expensive, 12~22 vehicle means they would be mostly army / corp asset, division asset at maximum but very unlikely. But I really have no idea.

However, for the game balance factor, maybe you could decrease the BRM-1 price, just a little bit, for other PACT nations? This depends on how you guys think about BRM-1 and recon balance :)

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 7/7/2019 2:29:36 AM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

For BRM-1, I guess USSR should have relatively cheap or moderate price. But for other PACT nations, it should be expensive, 12~22 vehicle means they would be mostly army / corp asset, division asset at maximum but very unlikely. But I really have no idea.

22 BRM-1 for Poland is about 1 per 70 BMP-1. A mechanized infantry regiment has 90 BMP-1 in mechanized companies alone.

That would be enough for every recce company, I think.

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 7/7/2019 3:20:01 AM   
exsonic01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

For BRM-1, I guess USSR should have relatively cheap or moderate price. But for other PACT nations, it should be expensive, 12~22 vehicle means they would be mostly army / corp asset, division asset at maximum but very unlikely. But I really have no idea.

22 BRM-1 for Poland is about 1 per 70 BMP-1. A mechanized infantry regiment has 90 BMP-1 in mechanized companies alone.

That would be enough for every recce company, I think.

Oh, this is fresh & reasonable approach. But I don't know how many mechanized infantry and armored brigade were there for cold war Poland army. Do you have any data?

From what I know, most of PACT followed Soviet army model, so it is mostly safe to guess they also followed the Soviet model for deployment of vehicles.

But, isn't it typical to leave several vehicles in behind, for the maintenance purpose?

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 7/7/2019 4:24:19 PM   
nikolas93TS


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Soviets would have additional 3x BRM-1/BRM-1K in divisional reconnaissance battalion, which would give 7 vehicles per division in total. Czechs seem to have based BPzV on BMP-1K, rather than licencing BRM-1K from Soviets, and have probably produced around 200 from 1988 to 1990 (so 15 vehicles for 1988 report makes sense). We might never know, but maybe Soviets asked to much money per unit, so other WP nations bought just a token quantity.

Also, "Командирская боевая разведывательная машина БРМ-1К. Техническое описание и инструкция по эксплуатации. Часть 1 (1979 г.)" (user manual) give performance as:

Minimum detection and tracking distance of moving targets with direct radar visibility:

Minimum: 200m
Maximum:
1) individual soldier with radial velocity of more than 2 km/h (when working with a sound indicator) and radial velocity of 4 km/h (when working with an CRT indicator): 3-4 km;
2) vehicles with a radial velocity ranging from 2 km/h to 60 km/h (when working with an sound indicator) and at a velocity of 4km/h to 80 km/h (when working with an CRT indicator): 8-10 km.

However, some interesting points are raised at this thread: http://community.battlefront.com/topic/121643-brm-1k-and-brm-3k/

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 7/7/2019 7:04:10 PM   
exsonic01

 

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Huh, my guess was quite close!

Battlefront link's panzersakura is telling very similar things with what I wrote above. BMP-1 and Tall Mike is ground radar, not something like airborne EW radar. So many things can block and interfere signal. Radar signal output is not something intuitive like optical or thermal vision output, so operators need to be nicely trained and experienced to tell which signal is target and which one is not. And I agree BRM was a part of more larger information gathering and recon scheme of Soviet army. It could tell something is moving, but it requires other eyes like UAV or recons to validate the observation.

So, maybe you could depict Tall Mike radar something can see further away, but only show yellow icons. And LoS of BRM-1 should be the same like IR or visual optics, it should be blocked by tree, house, mountains and hills and etc. But range of radar should be bigger than optics, and might be a bit better than IR? I'm not sure if 8~10km was really practical, because one cannot escape from resolution issue. Oh, and it should be only detect moving targets, not stationary targets. Maybe it would be possible to give yellow dashed circle (like muzzle flash) for small or slow moving target or target in further distance (5km+), and give yellow icon for big or fast moving target or target in closer distance (5km-), or something similar.

Also, give good chance to print out false yellow dashed circle or false yellow icon around "real" yellow detection. Speaking of false signal, it would be good to include very low chance of printing random false signal in middle of nowhere, like current yellow dashed circle for muzzle flash. which vanishses temporarily (1~2min later) In games like Harpoon and CMANO, almost all cold war radars couldn't escape from false signal. I guess Tall Mike GSR would be the same.


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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 7/7/2019 8:57:28 PM   
nikolas93TS


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I don't think implementing LoS based radar would be too hard, although Veitikka should have the last word on that (also because we must analyse how it will influence gameplay and AI). I guess it should be less influenced by vegetation, for example. However, this would also require adding EW warfare set, which could be set to Light, Medium and Strong (degrading radar performance accordingly) with appropriate additions outside of radar feature.

Also, it would require some changes to database editor. Ground radar parameter ON/OFF, and that should somehow open maybe a pop-up screen with additional features like emplacement time, minimal range, max vs infantry, max vs vehicles (for start). We should also make an additional research on Western counterparts like AN/PPS-5, RASIT etc.

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 7/7/2019 11:27:49 PM   
exsonic01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nikolas93TS
I don't think implementing LoS based radar would be too hard, although Veitikka should have the last word on that (also because we must analyse how it will influence gameplay and AI). I guess it should be less influenced by vegetation, for example. However, this would also require adding EW warfare set, which could be set to Light, Medium and Strong (degrading radar performance accordingly) with appropriate additions outside of radar feature.

Also, it would require some changes to database editor. Ground radar parameter ON/OFF, and that should somehow open maybe a pop-up screen with additional features like emplacement time, minimal range, max vs infantry, max vs vehicles (for start). We should also make an additional research on Western counterparts like AN/PPS-5, RASIT etc.

Sounds like a great plan!

But I'm curious about the part of vegetation influence on GSR, if you guys could share any source that would be great. But sounds like it is plausible, moving target among trees and woods might be noticeable from radar operator, but I think this feature should be depend on depth of unit from tree line boundary, i.e., how deep the unit lies in.

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 7/7/2019 11:28:41 PM >

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 7/13/2019 11:00:59 PM   
nikolas93TS


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Weren't ground radars deployed in the first place in order to detect enemy troops in dense foliage of Vietnam?

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 7/14/2019 12:08:41 AM   
exsonic01

 

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Tall Mike radar
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/brm-1.htm
https://www.armedconflicts.com/SOV-PSNR-5-1RL133-kod-NATO-Tall-Mike-t37930#614737

AN/PPS-4
http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/11.ancient/karte116.en.html

AN/PPS-5 and 6
http://www.nf6x.net/2006/05/radar-set-anpps-6/
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/PPS-5
http://www.ichiban1.org/html/cs_radar.htm

About frequency and band, IEEE and NATO
https://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Radar/Radar_Bands_Wavelengths.htm

If you check those data, Tallmike and AN/PPS-5 are all NATO I-band (IEEE X-band) radar. X-band has been , and still is widely used in military applications. Check this link about X-band and other band radars:
http://gsp.humboldt.edu/olm_2015/Courses/GSP_216_Online/lesson7-2/interpreting-radar.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_band
https://radenso.com/blogs/radar-university/what-are-the-differences-between-ka-k-and-x-bands
http://www.valentine1.com/V1Info/whatyoushouldknowradar.asp

X-band radar use shorter wavelength (around 3cm) which is in realm of microwave spectrum. Short wavelength brings clear advantages
1) Can use in almost any weather condition.
2) Accuracy of detecting target location is better in relatively "short" distance. Depending on the power, it can detect further distance (that is why sea-based X-band radars are really huge). But due to power and size limit, it cannot be increased infinitely, use of X-band for early warning purpose is not a good idea.
3) Due to short wavelength, radar dish size can be reduced to order of one meter, not huge ones like AEW radar.

Depending on the band, detection distance can be much increased but this sacrifices the accuracy, or vise versa. Low frequency bands (like S-band, L-band, and UHF...) are used in early warning radar for AEGIS or E-3. Those are good at detect object very far, but accuracy is sacrificed. In opposite, high frequency bands (Ku-band or X-band) can bring higher precision in detection, so they are used in tracking radar or missile seekers. But those high frequency radar is not that great to use in long range search.

http://gsp.humboldt.edu/olm_2015/Courses/GSP_216_Online/lesson7-2/interpreting-radar.html
As you can see, X-band is not that great for foliage penetration. Low wavelength bands can do that better, but they will bring much lower resolution so location of target will be not that accurate. I guess GSRs during cold war were more targeted to detect the movement of enemy vehicles and infantry within "short (like less than 10km)" distance with relatively good accuracy, not for the long range search neither for foliage penetration.

Not sure about other models like AN/PPS-15 or later variants though.

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 7/15/2019 5:15:43 AM >

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 9/15/2019 11:07:35 AM   
nikolas93TS


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Something like this would be perfect to model battlefield surveillance radar in operation.

Biggest obstacle however would be teaching AI how to use it properly and gain benefit from such information. That is not as easy as it might seem.

< Message edited by nikolas93TS -- 9/15/2019 11:08:47 AM >

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 9/18/2019 1:18:02 PM   
exsonic01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nikolas93TS



Something like this would be perfect to model battlefield surveillance radar in operation.

Biggest obstacle however would be teaching AI how to use it properly and gain benefit from such information. That is not as easy as it might seem.

I can't see the picture... Can you reupload the pic again?

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 9/18/2019 1:26:13 PM   
nikolas93TS


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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 9/18/2019 1:43:33 PM   
exsonic01

 

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Thanks. This looks good!! I guess yellow diagram shows radar coverage or radar track mode? Anyway, looks promising. I guess radar detected that vehicle through buildings because it is in higher ground, so radar signal flied over buildings, right?

But yeah, AI issue would be a problem. Frankly, it is not easy thing for humans to pick the best location of such ground radar unit. It should have good LoS over battlefield, but it should be placed in safe place. It should be in front line as a recon element, but it might be dangerous if such radar is too close to enemy front line. I think it would be helpful to check FMs about formation and operations of recon units during cold war.

Some special algorithm for radar units might be helpful. Place radar unit in
a) well covered tile with good cover / concealment value
b) have direct LoS of radar over at least 2 (or 1) VPs and possible opponent approaching route to corresponding VP
c) Open field or road should be near, to help faster relocation
Something like this? Sound like a place condition for ATGM units :(

Anyway, I wish you guys found some good idea about this.

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 9/20/2019 7:03:20 PM   
nikolas93TS


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I think it should be based on existing LoS system with a certain scan rate, automatically tracking moving ground vehicles, walking troops, and possibly helicopters. Yellow zone would indicate which range/azimuth sector is containing the enemy and the target type. Yellow zone would be updated periodically, and direction could be determined by updated sector following previous slowly waning. There would be a random chance of bogie.

I am aware some modern GRS can also detect and accurately locate artillery shell bursts, but for the time being we should keep that feature as separate, as artillery reconnaissance vehicles (whenever Cold War or modern) would require a lot of additional work.

I am not that much worried about a specific position algorithm as I am how AI could use that data. The field commander who knows the enemy’s location and the types of forces being deployed enjoys a great tactical advantage. I think that currently AI would be able to use this feature for directing artillery strikes and illumination flares on suspected enemy position, but it wouldn't be able to use it for a bigger scheme planning in the same manner as human can.

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 9/21/2019 3:07:59 AM   
exsonic01

 

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quote:


I am aware some modern GRS can also detect and accurately locate artillery shell bursts

I think counter battery radar can be abstracted with artillery units, isn't it? Counter battery radar was deployed and used from Vietnam war. But modeling of CB radar sounds like a good idea.

quote:


I am not that much worried about a specific position algorithm as I am how AI could use that data. The field commander who knows the enemy’s location and the types of forces being deployed enjoys a great tactical advantage. I think that currently AI would be able to use this feature for directing artillery strikes and illumination flares on suspected enemy position, but it wouldn't be able to use it for a bigger scheme planning in the same manner as human can.

I agree, and that seems like not an easy problem... but well, players also 'mostly' use such information to guide artillery, aren't we? One of the tactics I'm using when I assault to AI-defending position is, field good number of dismounted recons, play patiently and slowly, wait until they reach positions and get coordinate, and call artillery. I think reaction of artillery or FASCAM AI to radar signal is also important. But "grand tactics" type AI might not be easy.



< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 9/21/2019 3:08:21 AM >

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RE: BRM-1/1K in AB? - 9/21/2019 3:47:43 AM   
lancer

 

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Hi,

Perhaps a simple way around the AI's lack of big picture tactical thinking would be to price the unit, eg. selection at game start, at a premium for a human player to reflect the added benefits that they'd receive from such information.

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