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7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987

 
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7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/5/2019 12:56:42 AM   
miller7219

 

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Thanks to Whicker for his help with knowledge of LUA and help programming the AI, scoring, and playbalancing.

The scenario is complete and ready for formal playtesting.

Feedback welcome.

Next scenario in the works: 7th Fleet #2 - Blockading the Philippines







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< Message edited by miller7219 -- 7/10/2019 1:55:18 AM >
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/6/2019 3:01:48 AM   
Whicker

 

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looks interesting. Seems like a suicide mission for the USSR supply ship convoy, but maybe I am selling it short.

what would the scoring be? I don't have the game so I have no idea what victory would be - rescuing the survivors and destroying the USSR supply ship? how much losses could the US side take and still be victorious?

(in reply to miller7219)
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/6/2019 3:39:11 AM   
TheOriginalOverlord

 

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1 of the F4 squadrons had converted to F-4G wild weasel...at least in real life they did.

_____________________________

Semper Fi!

Jeremy


(in reply to Whicker)
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/6/2019 6:11:07 AM   
miller7219

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whicker

looks interesting. Seems like a suicide mission for the USSR supply ship convoy, but maybe I am selling it short.

what would the scoring be? I don't have the game so I have no idea what victory would be - rescuing the survivors and destroying the USSR supply ship? how much losses could the US side take and still be victorious?


Here's the scoring system:

The Soviet player gains and loses VPs:

Easy Conversion to CMANO:

+15 BB Missouri Sunk
+6 Each US CG Sunk
+4 Each US DD Sunk
+3 Each US FF Sunk
+3 If Soviet Player Picks up downed US aviators
-3 Each Soviet CG/DD Sunk
-1 Each Soviet FF/FFL Sunk

Not so easy to convert:

+6 For Each undamaged SC that reaches Paluan
+4 For Each damaged SC that reaches Paluan
+2 For Each US INT Destroyed
-1 For Each Soviet or Vietnamese BMB or INT destroyed

The Fleet Series combines multiple convoy ships into a single unit called a "SC" (Slow Convoy). Each SC = @3=4 ships. CMANO represents individual ships. In the actual scenario there are 2x SC units for a maximum of +12 VPs is they both reach Paluan undamaged. Not sure translate to individual convoy ships?

The Fleet Series groups air units into general categories:

INT = F4E, Mig-23, and MiG-21
BMB = Tu-16G

It also doesn't scale each individual aircraft, rather it is at squadron/regiment scale. US has 2x F-4E for a possible 4VPs is both are destroyed. The Soviets/Vietnamese have 2x MiG-21, 1x MiG-23, and 1x Tu-16G for a possible -4VPs if all destroyed. Not sure how to translate that into individual plane losses in CMANO.

No VP gain/loss for RCN and EW losses (Tu-16E, Tu-16D, P-3C Orion, and F-4G).

Compare Soviet VP to Result Table:

+15 or more Decisive Soviet Victory
+9 to +14 Substantial Soviet Victory
+3 to +8 Marginal Soviet Victory
-3 to +2 Marginal US Victory
-9 to -4 Substantial US Victory
-10 or less Decisive US Victory

(in reply to Whicker)
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/6/2019 6:14:13 AM   
miller7219

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheOriginalOverlord

1 of the F4 squadrons had converted to F-4G wild weasel...at least in real life they did.


My error, the F-4E EW's are actually F-4G Wild Weasels! 2x F-4E Phantom II and 1x F-4G Wild Weasel squadrons at Clark Field.

(in reply to TheOriginalOverlord)
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/6/2019 6:49:00 AM   
miller7219

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whicker

looks interesting. Seems like a suicide mission for the USSR supply ship convoy, but maybe I am selling it short.


Well, If the Missouri TG + Sterrett TF + the F-4 squadrons combine then, yeah the supply convoy is toast! A couple of variables though:

1. The Missouri TG has a long haul to NE Cay to pick up the survivors (it's primary mission). Depending upon the randomness of how long it takes to locate the survivors once they arrive at NE Cay they may not be able to make it west in time. They will run straight over the Soviet FF/FFL TF at Cam Ranh Bay that's racing them to NE Cay...they simply serve as "missile wasters" to the Missouri TF that could be better served to save them for the supply group...assuming they can make it West in time to help. I feel a gun battle coming on here!

2. Even if they quickly locate and pick up the survivors at NE Cay with enough time to spare to assist with intervening the Soviet supply group, and survive the Tu-16's, their SAM stores are likely to be heavily depleted (or gone) from fighting off the Tu-16 strike. It would be suicide to take on the CGs and DD in the Soviet supply group with no SAMs, but if they conserve their SSMs (go guns against the FF/FFL TF), keep ship losses small, and stay undetected they may be able to aid in the destruction of the supply group from a safe distance regardless.

3. The Sterrett TF alone will get pummeled by the Soviets (they have a fair number of SSMs of good quality), but if coordinated with the F-4s providing CAP and dropping LGBs and with a little luck they may together kill the supply group without any aid from the Missouri TF....but it's definitely not a sure thing. The fate and aid of the Missouri TF is a big unknown.

Ultimately both sides need to gain air superiority over the central South China Sea (over NE Cay) first to succeed. Hunting the other's recon units is a priority to keep their TG/TF's hidden for as long as possible. The battle tends to unfold:

1. A nice big Cold War furball over NE Cay and central South China Sea, with the winner gaining a huge advantage to the ASuW battles to come. Losses in the air battle will aid or hinder the US's ability to deal with the supply group...if the F-4 take substantial losses there may not be enough left for an effective strike on the supply group.

2. Establish Recon as far East/West as possible to locate the others' surface units.

3. Battle around NE Cay, both a surface battle and an Air to Surface battle. Pick up Survivors and hightail it West to get that Supply Group if practical (assuming the TG survives the Tu-16s!).

4. Air to Sea strike (coordinated with the Sterrett TF) by the F-4s on the supply group...maybe or maybe not with the aid of the Missouri TG.

Although it's probably not tactically wise (the Mig-23's don't have the range for escort), if the Soviet's Tu-16s are able to successfully and quickly dispose of the Missouri TG they have the range to hit Clark Field and knock'em out before they strike the supply group.

The Missouri TG has some Tomahawks...could they take out some of the Soviet Tu-16 and Mig-23's on the ground at Tuy Hoa? There likely isn't enough to have chance to do any damage, but if they get lucky that could change the US's fate.

There're definitely opportunities for some tough choices, tension, and twists in this scenario if the Soviet AI can be properly programmed, appropriate SAM/AAA and radar defenses added to both sides' air bases, scoring system tweaked, air base munitions fine tuned, and randomness to the survivor pick up can be all come together.

< Message edited by miller7219 -- 7/6/2019 6:58:59 AM >

(in reply to Whicker)
Post #: 6
RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/6/2019 11:17:27 AM   
Gunner98

 

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quote:

+6 For Each undamaged SC that reaches Paluan
+4 For Each damaged SC that reaches Paluan


Aside from this one distinction the scoring is easy to do using basic events.

e.g:
First you set up a trigger: Unit destroyed, US, CG
Then an action: Points, Soviet +6
Event: repeatable, trigger & action

for the SC arrival, set up a box of RPs and use the 'Unit arrives in' trigger with those RPs

The basic events are very powerful and easy to use, you don't need to script anything in Lua for the basic stuff and that is all you need here.

Sounds like an interesting scenario, I'll try to check it out when I have a chance.

B

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(in reply to miller7219)
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/6/2019 3:14:46 PM   
Whicker

 

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I've setup a basic way to rescue the downed crew for both sides, it is slightly variable for the US side but not for the USSR. Not sure how variable it really should be. Do we know where they are exactly? in 1987 how much of a locator would they have? your notes said they were on land which would narrow it down a lot but there is no actual land in the RP area so I put them in a lifeboat. Seems like the US side should have some helo's, but that may make it too easy to pick them up?

I added some minor AA/SAM stuff to the Vietnamese bases - it can kill some of the CMs but not all, and there aren't that many anyways, but like you say you could get lucky and get a kill on the right facility and take out something. Could use some recon that is stale to provide a little clue as to which hangers may have units, and which base has what air defenses.

What about picking up the P3 crew - what scoring is that? for both losing it and getting them.

I'll work on it some more later this afternoon.

I currently have the USSR TF that is going for the downed crew as Engage Opportunities: yes which means they have a tendency to kill the downed pilots, I changed some WRA to see if i could fix that but haven't tested it.

I don't think the scoring needs to be exactly the same, you just need to translate it to what victory would mean. Only weird part seems the AC.

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(in reply to Gunner98)
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/6/2019 4:26:03 PM   
TheOriginalOverlord

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: miller7219


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheOriginalOverlord

1 of the F4 squadrons had converted to F-4G wild weasel...at least in real life they did.


My error, the F-4E EW's are actually F-4G Wild Weasels! 2x F-4E Phantom II and 1x F-4G Wild Weasel squadrons at Clark Field.


Here is what you are looking for:

90th Tactical Fighter Squadron (16 September 1974 – 16 December 1991)F-4E/G Converted to "Wild Weasel" role in 1979 when converting to F-4G.
3d Tactical Fighter Squadron (1 December 1975 – 16 December 1991) F-4E
26th Aggressor Squadron (2 January 1976 – 21 February 1990) (T-38/F-5E)

_____________________________

Semper Fi!

Jeremy


(in reply to miller7219)
Post #: 9
RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/7/2019 1:39:41 AM   
miller7219

 

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Joined: 4/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whicker

I've setup a basic way to rescue the downed crew for both sides, it is slightly variable for the US side but not for the USSR. Not sure how variable it really should be. Do we know where they are exactly? in 1987 how much of a locator would they have? your notes said they were on land which would narrow it down a lot but there is no actual land in the RP area so I put them in a lifeboat. Seems like the US side should have some helo's, but that may make it too easy to pick them up?

I added some minor AA/SAM stuff to the Vietnamese bases - it can kill some of the CMs but not all, and there aren't that many anyways, but like you say you could get lucky and get a kill on the right facility and take out something. Could use some recon that is stale to provide a little clue as to which hangers may have units, and which base has what air defenses.

What about picking up the P3 crew - what scoring is that? for both losing it and getting them.

I'll work on it some more later this afternoon.

I currently have the USSR TF that is going for the downed crew as Engage Opportunities: yes which means they have a tendency to kill the downed pilots, I changed some WRA to see if i could fix that but haven't tested it.

I don't think the scoring needs to be exactly the same, you just need to translate it to what victory would mean. Only weird part seems the AC.


Thanks! Looked at the events/triggers you created. Not sure what they do or what variable are in there, but seems like it will work.

Added a basic scoring system (not for the supply ships getting to paluan..still thinking of how). not sure if it will give the desired results, but it's there.

Added helos (can someone check them and their ship assignment for accuracy?). Not sure what relevancy they may have other than giving the US a "standoff" vehicle to rescue the aviators and maybe some recon. Not sure how to use the Soviet AI with them.

Major work on the AI missions. I'm no expert, so if someone want's to take a look and edit, please have at it. You can run through and see what I'm trying to create...a major air strike @300 west of NE Cay. This needs more of an expert's touch.

Added a "No Fly Zone" for the US player to give them a guide and ensure the furball occurs.

No work on the supply convoy, yet...working on the air superiority part, rescue of downed aviators, and Soviet strike on the Missouri TG.

"7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987-3" attached (it's a .rar that I changed the extension to .zip, since the forum doesn't accept .rar file. Hope it opens for you!).

Consider this scenario open. I'm not a scenario designer by any measure, so feel free to make changes and attach updated files.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Whicker)
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/7/2019 4:24:27 AM   
Whicker

 

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I'll take a look at what you have done, here is my latest.

No scoring, lots of AI mission work. I have only played it on auto more or less with just the BB task force going to get the survivors, but I have some missions setup for most of it as best I could do with the limited range of the enemy side. I could re-arm the badgers and have them ready for round 2, that is probably what is next but I'm not sure there is much time.

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(in reply to miller7219)
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/7/2019 5:32:59 AM   
Whicker

 

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your strike was fairly effective, didn't kill anything but did take almost all the SAMs the group had I think. While my strike was a lot more complex to setup I think about the only difference may be how many more AA escorts I had which soaked up more SAMs and then allowed some ships to get sunk. I tried to make it a little variable - the main strike can come from different directions, not just straight out from the base (though to see that you have to constantly remember to change the Event for Setup back to Active each time). One big difference between our attacks is yours is based on distance and mine is more based on time. Mine could be taken advantage of somewhat. The player could take the BB SAG and attack the supply ships rather than rescue the survivors first, which would whack my attack timing. I could have the survivors die after xx hours to make sure they attempt to get them first. Or rethink how I did it. Or do it your way.

Your scoring is the reverse? why is it going down for the US side when they kill something?

Your northern fleet needs to have engage opportunities: yes in order for it to actually shoot at something. That or it needs to be on a mission of some sort.

the helos for the US side would add a lot of recon ability if needed, as well as that is probably what would pickup the survivors? which would be a bit of a game changer. On the russian side they may not be as important. There is enough AC recon that maybe you should skip it. Makes the survivor pickup harder and I think there is enough going on as is.

Not sure I like the idea of the no fly zone - though I only see the RPs - is there an actual no-nav zone? you're trying to make it so the US side doesn't have air cover during the survivor search? that doesn't seem fair. Pretty sure you need it to get thru it with anything much. I'd say lower the number of US AC to make it more difficult to choose where to put them.

(in reply to Whicker)
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/7/2019 9:18:50 PM   
miller7219

 

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Both the rescue of the aviators and the supply group should work. Still not sure of the scoring, but I've run it through 3 times and the results seem reasonable. Situational overview/orders writing and some spruce up of the various pop ups will come last.

Try this - NE Cay Area:

1. Send the Missouri TG to NE Cay at flank speed.
2. Get some CAP over NE cay as the TG nears the the area. You'll need some air superiority and help with the Soviet's surprise!
3. Target the Tomahawk strike.
4. Rescue the Aviators.
5. Hightail it west to blockade Paluan and ready to take on the Soviet Supply Group.

North - Supply Group:

1. Find them.
2. Strike them with the F-4's. Should you wait and arm the 2nd squadron that is currently tasked with AA duties supporting the NE Cay area? Your call...you may need them to get through the Supply Groups defenses.
3. How do you use the Sterrett TF?

Curious on feedback on the AI programming and scoring outcomes, and of course buggy weird things that occur.

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(in reply to Whicker)
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/7/2019 11:34:45 PM   
Whicker

 

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I'll give that a shot later.

Here is my latest. I added scoring using lua as it keeps it all one place for each side, easier to modify if you want.
I also moved the supply ships a little closer, i am not sure they can make it on time as it was.

I changed the main ASuW attack quite a bit, no longer time based.

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< Message edited by Whicker -- 7/8/2019 4:37:07 AM >

(in reply to miller7219)
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/8/2019 4:40:20 AM   
Whicker

 

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I updated the one above to version 15.
Added some points for the supply ships, set Triumph at 90(?) which would mean you need to sink all the supply ships (and escorts), recover the P3 survivors and not loose anything - or sink the FFls and shoot down a bunch of AC.

I find the supply convoy to be easy pickings.

(in reply to Whicker)
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/9/2019 3:37:37 AM   
miller7219

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whicker

I updated the one above to version 15.
Added some points for the supply ships, set Triumph at 90(?) which would mean you need to sink all the supply ships (and escorts), recover the P3 survivors and not loose anything - or sink the FFls and shoot down a bunch of AC.

I find the supply convoy to be easy pickings.


I like v15. Nice job! let's use I updated to v16 and copied over the scenario overview from 7th Fleet and inserted the standard MGELLIS orders template (I like the standard format he uses for all his scenario orders), but I didn't fill it in specifically for this scenario. Anyone care to fill it in for this specific scenario? I'm not a terribly creative writer, but if not I'll butcher it!

A couple of loose ends:

1. Should I add the helos to all surface ships?

2. The Shilka AAA unit at Tuy Hoa is pretty powerful! Too powerful? 2 hits on Tuy Hoa out of 6 runs of the strikes. Nha Trang's air defenses feel right.

3. The MiG-21's flying CAP over the airbases won't engage the Tomahawks. The Tomahawks fly lower then their AA missile's minimum engagement envelope, but I would think they could (would) engage with guns...but they don't? By design or is there an engagement flag that needs to be set somewhere to enable gun engagement?

Next scenario: 7th Fleet #2 - Blockading the Philippines (takes place following the events of this scenario. It's a US Amphib Op with a Soviets submarine interdiction of it)

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(in reply to Whicker)
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/9/2019 4:15:46 AM   
Whicker

 

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What score did you get?

1) I wouldn't bother, people would want to pickup the survivors with the helos and that would be too easy?

2) take it out? though the real problem is the lack of QTY of TLAMs I would think. USA is already OP in my opinion.

3) I noticed that too, it looked like a combo of their altitude was too high and they needed to use guns. You could try turning on Allow Strafing on their patrol and see if that works. They are also basically useless.

If you do another and would like me to help you can use the Starter Scenario I created, it is in this forum (Mods) and would make my life a bit easier.

I'm not a writer, I'll stick to tech support!

< Message edited by Whicker -- 7/9/2019 4:16:34 AM >

(in reply to miller7219)
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RE: 7th Fleet #1 - Civil War in the Philippines,1987 - 7/15/2019 8:58:08 PM   
Primarchx


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Pretty fun. Lost a couple of Phantoms but sank everything and punched some TLAMs into the Sov airbase, destroying something like 30 Tu-16s!

(in reply to Whicker)
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