Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

The Iron Ore

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> The Iron Ore Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
The Iron Ore - 7/4/2019 8:21:41 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2009
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline
The Iron Ore

A What if Option (maybe for MWIF house rules...)

[Designer’s Note and background. Germanies war industry had a problem, insufficient domestic supply of iron ore (used in the production of steel). In peace time, large quantities of iron ore were imported from French (mines in in Lorraine province) but when WW2 broke out, this supply was no longer available. Sweden was one of the larger supplier to Germany and the iron ore was essential for the production of panzers, submarines, ships, rail cars, engins, artillery, trucks and other implements of war.
The Iron ore from Sweden came by ship from the Swedish port of Luleå in the northern part of the Baltic Sea, the Gulf of Bothnia. But it was frozen in winter, so during that period each year sweden shipped most of their iron ore by rail through the ice-free port of Narvik, in the far north of Norway. On avrage 80% of the iron ore was exported through Narvik during the winter.




The Iron ore shipping from Narvik traveled inside Norwegian territorial waters and was just of reach for the British navy. While Norway remained neutral, there was very little the British could do to stop this trade without violating that neutrality. To the Allies, stopping the shipping and thus starving German industry was critical.
The last 20% of the iron ore was sent on a long rail journey to Oxelösund on the Baltic Sea, south of Stockholm, which was ice free. Calcualtion by both Commonwealth and Germany suggested that Oxelösund could ship only one fifth of the weight Germany required. But they had partly calculated wrong, missing the important action of stockpiling. During the Narvik campaign the Narvik port and shipping capabilites was badly damged and it was for a very long time not possible to sent Ore over Narvik. Instead Sweden compensated Germany and tried to honor the trade agremment by combination of actions; more ore from the southerns parts, the use of stockpaling and sending even largre quantites during the sommer months. But since both sides made the same misstake the both fought hard for Narvik.]


5.1 Trade agreements
Whichever major power controls Narvik receives one resource each turn [the 4th Swedish resource, removed from the printed map for game balance, traded to other nations?!].

US entry options

39. Mining Norwegian coast (Ge/It -1) – Once per game, provided the USA and Norway are both neutral and Paris is Allied controlled, then at the start of any Commonwealth naval action (see 10.1) the CW may turn face-down any face-up CW SCS in the 0 section of the Norwegian Sea sea and announce that they are mining the Norwegian Coast. The Norwegian coast is mined. From now on if the last impulse of the two following turn is blizzard or snow in the Arctic weather zone, Germany may only ship the resource trough the Norwegian Sea and the North Sea else the resources are lost. After the period has passed the cost are cleared of mines by the Norwegians. This US Entry action can be taken multiple times, after the effect clears.

[Designer’s Note: Winston Churchill. examined the idea of laying a minefield in the Norwegian coast. The minefield was designed to force cargo ships out of Norwegian territorial waters and into international waters, where the Royal Navy could seize ships heading to Germany. The actual operation was carried out successfully in the early morning of 8 April the mines were laid, but the action stop due to the German invasion of Norway.
The Scandinavians was first warned by then the British Foreign Secretary, that the minefield was about to be laid. Unsurprisingly both Norway and Sweden protested strongly. And had the the mining of the leads continued the likly senarios its that both Sweden and Norway would have fought hard to keep the appearance of neutrality and removed the unvanted mining of the leads].

40 Commonwealth Occupy Narvik (Ge/It -2) - In any future turn after which USSR and Finland are at war the Commonwealth may declare control of the Narvik during any Debark land units at sea step provided Norway is neutral. Instead of declaring war, you do this by simply a debark a land unit into Narvik. From now on if the last impulse of any turn is blizzard or snow in the Arctic weather zone, Germany may not ship the Swedish resources (see 5.1).
Germany may align a Norway during any Axis declaration of war step after CW has occiped Narvik. No more than 1 Norway unit may ever be outside Norway from now on (immediately place any excess (owner’s choice) on the production spiral to arrive as reinforcements in 2 turns). Any Commonwealth units in Narvik remains in the hex even if Norway is aligned to either side.

[Designer’s Note: this represents the first part of Plan R 4 in which the Allies had devised a plan to use the USSR 1939 attack on Finland as a cover for seizing both the Swedish ore fields in the north, and the Narvik harbout. The plan was to get Norwegian and Swedish permission to send an expeditionary force to Finland across by rail to help the Finns. Once in place they were to proceed to take control of Swedish harbours and mines, occupying Luleå and shutting down German access to Swedish ore.
The Scandinavian reluctance to allow Allied troops on their territory halted the original Allied plan for using aid to Finland as a pretext for moving in troops, but on 12 March the Allies decided to try a "semi-peaceful" invasion nevertheless. Troops were to be landed in Norway, and proceed into Sweden to capture the Swedish mines. However, if serious military resistance was encountered they were not to press the issue. The first ship with Allied troops were to start the journey when the plan had to be abandomed because the German Operation Weserübung had beat them to it with a just few hours.]

41 Occupy Swedish iron ore mining districts (Ge/It -6) - In any future impulse after which Commonwealth has Occupied Narvik and USSR and Finland are at war, the Commonwealth may declare control of the Swedish iron ore mining district if Sweden is neutral. Instead of declaring war, you do this by simply a move land unit into any Swedish railway hexes from Narvik to Luelå or by depark a land unit into Luelå. From now all Swedish railway hexes from Narvik to Luelå now become CW controlled. From now on Sweden can’t send any resource to Germany until they are Swedish controlled again.
Germany may align a Sweden during any Axis declaration of war step after Commonwealth has Occupied Swedish iron ore mining districts.
No more than 1 Swedish unit may ever be outside Sweden from now on (immediately place any excess (owner’s choice) on the production spiral to arrive as reinforcements in 2 turns);
Any Commonwealth units in the Swedish iron ore mining district remains in the hex even if Sweden is aligned to either side.

[Designer’s Note: this represents the second part of Plan R 4 in which the Allies had devised a plan to use the USSR 1939 attack on Finland as a cover for seizing both the Swedish ore fields in the north, and the Narvik harbour. Se 40]


42 Germany demands fulfilment of Iron Ore trade agreement (Ge/It 1) - In any turn after Narvik is occupied by the Western Allies and Sweden is still Neutral, Germany may demand that Sweden fulfil its Iron ore trade agreement with Germany. If the rout over Narvik is blocked from now on, Sweden compensate each occurrence by sending 2 extra resources to Germany during May\Jun turns and if necessary, also Jun\Jul turns. Germany needs to have 2 extra convoy points out to transport them. By Jan/Feb 1943 the effect is cancelled and Sweden does not compensate any lost resources.

[Designer’s Note: this represents the Swedish willing to try honor trade agreements with both the Western allies and Germany, to fullfill the appearance of neutrality.]

------------------------------------------------

[Designer’s Goal. In many MWIF (WIF) games, Norway sees only a little action. Mostly because of the fact that the military profit is small and / or that the opponent risks winning more. Histrorically, during WW II, the Iron Ore in Sweden was one of the reasons that Norway was drawn into the war.
With "The Iron Ore" I want to change so that Norway in MWIF becomes more interesting.]


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 7/4/2019 8:38:11 PM >


_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
Post #: 1
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/5/2019 10:10:21 AM   
Centuur


Posts: 8242
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
To be honest, I believe these rules to be too much in favour of the Allies. Some balancing seems to be necessary.

Let's consider this for a moment. The Norwegian economy depended heavily on sea transport and fishing. Roads were almost non existant up north and the effect of laying mines into Norwegian waters would mean that Norwegian villages there would simply starve, due to lack of fuel and food.
There's no way that the Norwegian government would simply stand aside if the British would have laid mines in their territorial waters. Even when they were warned. I simply don't believe that public opinion in Norway would have avoided joining the war on the Axis side in the long run. The public opinion wouldn't stand a continuous blockade causing starvation of part of the population.
So, the Norwegian navy would of course immediately sail to clear the minefields if they were in their territorial waters. Even if the British fleet would be guarding the minefields, the Norwegians would sail there and simply stated: if you fire on us, we are at war with the British.

To reflect this, the effect should only last the turn it is chosen. This reflects that the Norwegians did clear the minefields. The British can choose this option in other turns again if they want to. But, than they again suffer the effects of US entry.
I would also add a die roll for the possibility of Germany being able to align Norway. The first time the CW uses this option, there's one die roll, which gives a 10% chance of allowing Germany to align Norway in a future impulse. This effect increases by another 10% every time the British mine the Norwegian territorial waters. (So the second time, there is a 20% change that Germany can align Norway in a future impulse, the third time it's 30% and on).

Than, there's the next option of moving a unit into Narvik. I would first state that the British can only choose this option, if they have chosen option 39 earlier in the game. Second, they should only be able to choose this option if Norway is neutral. Third: they can only execute this option, if the USSR is at war with Finland or has claimed the Finnish Borderlands. With no Soviet actions against Finland the excuse of sending in British (or French) troops to Norway to try to aid the Finns isn't available for the Allies. This would make it very hard for Churchill to explain to the British people why troops would be send to the Northpole, instead of France.

On option 41, I would also allow the British to do this, if the Soviets have claimed the Borderlands.

Finally I would state that Norwegian and Swedish units can only enter hexes in Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Karelia, Estonia and 4 hexes inside the USSR (outside of Karelia) and let the general rule be applied to them. I can imagine if Sweden goes to war with the Allies, that they will try to give aid to the Finns against the Soviets, or will help the Norwegians in their defense against the Wallies. There were close ties between the Scandinavian countries and Estonia, making it perfectly alright for Scandinavian forces to move into those countries, if they were fighting on the same side. This rule also reflects the fact that Swedish volunteers fought with the Finns against the USSR.

< Message edited by Centuur -- 7/5/2019 10:14:21 AM >


_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 2
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/5/2019 4:36:48 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 40250
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

warspite1

I've only read these two posts briefly - and will give these a closer look before commenting fully. However I just wanted to make an initial couple of comments

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Let's consider this for a moment. The Norwegian economy depended heavily on sea transport and fishing. Roads were almost non existant up north and the effect of laying mines into Norwegian waters would mean that Norwegian villages there would simply starve, due to lack of fuel and food.

warspite1

This seems far to extreme. For what you suggest, the minefields would need to be placed randomly all along the coast. The mines were not placed in this fashion and did not need to be. Minefields needed to be placed in specific localised areas that would mean the German merchants would leave territorial waters to avoid the mines and so be fair game for aircraft/subs/surface ships. Wholesale loss of life through starvation was just not something that would result from such a policy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I simply don't believe that public opinion in Norway would have avoided joining the war on the Axis side in the long run.

warspite1

This would very much depend on what actually happened, how events unfolded etc. and of course, once a shooting war starts its hard to put the genie back in the bottle. But I think it would take a pretty extraordinary turn of events for the Norwegians to decide to get into bed with the Germans. And of course, the longer the war continues before Norwegian involvement, there is progressively less chance of the Norwegians being so rash. Once again there is plenty of historical context - Vichy and Spain to name perhaps the two most obvious.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

....they can only execute this option, if the USSR is at war with Finland or has claimed the Finnish Borderlands. With no Soviet actions against Finland the excuse of sending in British (or French) troops to Norway to try to aid the Finns isn't available for the Allies. This would make it very hard for Churchill to explain to the British people why troops would be send to the Northpole, instead of France.

warspite1

I think this is a false premise for two main reasons. Firstly, by the time the decision was made to put R4/Wilfred into operation, the Finnish War was over. That excuse was long since unavailable to the Allies - but they went ahead anyway. So from an historical perspective this doesn't fit.

Secondly, and this is more to do with the French (but frankly what suited the French (by and large) suited the British) and this is the fact that the Allied Governments would have no difficulty in selling a campaign in Norway to the populace. The French Government, understandably after the horrors of WWI, were absolutely desperate for the war to be fought anywhere but on French soil - Gamelin and his spiffing wheeze to bomb the Caucasus oil fields anyone..... - Norway was perfect for them a) its away from France and b) it's a British led operation so if it goes tits up then the French can't be blamed (and yes that was the level of thinking in the British and French war cabinets in the early months of WWII).


But plenty to ponder on - fascinating subject.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/5/2019 4:40:22 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 3
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/5/2019 5:51:52 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8242
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
I don't believe that the Norwegians would simply accept that they cannot move supplies anymore along the south coast and had to use the raillines in the south instead. Even with the railroads in southern Norway in place, the Norwegians shipped most fuel and supplies by ship. There simply wasn't enough railroad material available to supply cities along the southern coast.

Also, the Norwegian government had to balance a knife-edge to stay neutral.

No, the Norwegians would have sailed to clear those minefields away. If only to say to the world and to Berlin: "we do not accept this act of aggression by the British and simply let them lay mines in our waters. And thank you for offering, Mr. von Ribbentrop, but we don't need the support of the Kriegsmarine to clean our territorial waters". Don't forget: the British were not well liked in Norway before the war. Having said that: the Germans were not liked in Norway also.

On Narvik. I don't think the Allies would have made those plans if the Soviet's didn't put pressure on the Finns. So that is a prerequisite to me. Notice that I don't say that Finland has to be at war with the USSR. I only say that there was aggression there (the claim of the borderlands had to be made or there had (or has) to be a state of war between Finland and the USSR). Don't forget: at that moment it looked to the CW that the Soviets were supporting the Germans due to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact in full action. And if the Finns are on the Axis side at this stage, capturing Norway would put pressure on Helsinki too, aiding the Allied cause.
One of the reasons for operation Wilfred was the possibility that the Soviets might again attack the Finns, so an Allied presence was deemed to be necessary in Norway to send a message to Moscow: "don't mess with Finland again".

The diplomatic actions which took place between Oslo, London, Stockholm and Berlin are really fascinating in 1939 and 1940. Germany stating: "if you don't prevent this, we'll ...". And Britain stating: "If you don't prevent this, we'll ..." And that was the sea the Norwegians finally drowned in. To be honest: both sides were very, very aggressive against Norway. So it was only a matter of time before they would join the Allied or the Axis side. It was only a couple of days which finally made the difference for them.



< Message edited by Centuur -- 7/5/2019 5:57:21 PM >


_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 4
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/6/2019 1:19:49 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3022
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
First idea I had would be to try and sync this up with the new WiF8 rules, which would be do-able with a few work-arounds on which Norwegian units could do what, where, when after one side or the other issued a DOW to make the Norwegian units (and resource hex) active at least, without allowing full entry in a normal state of war, as per the new "Mining" table result. Though the new rules also change the rule for Allied access to the Baltic, which then results in no immediate need for the Germans to attack Denmark in 1939 and has implications via that table as well.

Second idea would be to consider a different way of looking at the economic impact on Germany. WiF has 2 essential problems around that - all non-Oil resources are the same, first. Second is that what Sweden supplied to Germany (a certain quality grade of ore) also soon became available to Germany from elsewhere - Lorraine.

But neither side in history could really expect that to happen so quickly in the new war. Lorraine is where Metz is - safely tucked away behind the Maginot line, and expected to remain in French control. But in the game, we know that is not going to be a concern for very deep into 1940. So if each side had refrained from activity in Scandinavia until after the French collapse, I could see both sides reaching the conclusion that the Swedish ore was helpful to Germany, but not critical, and would have left Norway alone just as does happen in many games of World in Flames. In history, Norway was a bit unlucky that the iron ore concerns reached a decisive point before the French campaign launched.

So rather than _only_ subtracting a resource from Germany, a tighter restriction would be to restrict their ability to change their gearing limits on Armor, Ships, Submarines, and maybe Airplanes too (not sure those consumed heavy steel plate the way the first three would). Or maybe just simply not allow the Germans to move beyond 1 gearing in any of those 3 classes, on turns the Swedish ore does not arrive, or maybe just allow a single build from the 3 classes - a serious squeeze. That would need some very careful consideration and a bit of research, but would be a more fine grained representation of the concerns over which ores the Germans could obtain.

But that is what the Swedish ore partially represented to the Germans - their overall ability to build certain items.


I would say of the options here, I don't think the Allies could have moved into Narvik and then crossed into Sweden whenever they wished afterwards. With no German attack and Allied landings in Narvik, the first thing the Swedes would have done is move troops to the rail line coming out of Narvik. The Allies might have had a week or two to start advancing down that line without serious opposition, but that would a) not be long in arriving, and b) the Allies weren't exactly very Rommel-esque in their basic military initiative in 1940.

Given the heavy news of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact not long before this period, I don't think the Swedes would have been willing to just allow Allied troops to cross their territory to reach Finland, regardless of their true feelings about the Russians. The idea of going against the wishes of the 2 biggest, possibly allied, continental powers in the Swedes' neighborhood would have weighed heavily, unless perhaps the Germans secretly encouraged such a move, which would also be a possibility perhaps.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 5
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/6/2019 11:17:59 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 40250
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
Well it’s unlikely Centuur and I will ever agree on Norway so agreeing to disagree there is probably best.

But looking at the proposal made, my 2 cents for what they are worth.

Firstly this is not intended as a criticism of the effort put into this - just my thoughts on the proposal. It is a real shame that there is no ideal way for a Norwegian Campaign to be played out in most games of MWIF but it would be good if there was.

The essential problem with getting players – Allied or Axis – to repeat the historical actions in Norway are twofold:

a) Although the Norwegian Campaign was a tactical ‘success’ for the Germans (an amazing, if somewhat fortuitous, feat of combined arms warfare) the cost of that success was negative and the benefits derived were nowhere near as important as believed to be the case at the outset.
The cost to the Kriegsmarine was too high (the destroyer force in particular) and then there was the subsequent need to garrison the country with troops needed elsewhere. The expected benefits of bases for the u-boats were largely nullified by the fall of France and u-boat bases on the west coast. The need to protect the iron ore supplies was also largely nullified by the French defeat and the capture of iron ore in Lorraine. In MWIF the Allies will get the benefit of the Norwegian merchant fleet too (something that the British had been quick to secure in real life but not represented in MWIF without German assistance). In MWIF too there is the added complication of forces for Norway being a drain on the often difficult attack against the French.

Summary: Why would the German player seek to replicate these mistakes for no appreciable gain - but some significant, unwanted pain?

b) The actions of the British and French were so ridiculous that to use the word ‘plan’ in any discussion is an insult to the word. That the ‘plan’ to land in Norway and then secure the Swedish iron ore mines was for all intents and purposes impossible given the forces available means that replicating such foolishness can’t help but come over as artificial. By ‘invading’ Norway and placing them in the Axis camp, the Allied player achieves little other than a potential US Entry hit and giving Germany some more land and naval forces (albeit weak) inc. CONV.

Summary: So again, why would the CW/French player seek to replicate these mistakes for no appreciable gain?

As for the house rule, there is also an argument for whether this is really necessary any more than say Dakar or Madagascar for example – neither of which I’ve seen in MWIF. But as said, I can appreciate why some would want to make the effort.

As for the proposed rules I would comment as follows:

quote:

5.1 Trade agreements
Whichever major power controls Narvik receives one resource each turn [the 4th Swedish resource, removed from the printed map for game balance, traded to other nations?!].


I’m not sure where the 4th resource comes from but presumably this is an extra resource added to give a carrot to using this rule?

quote:

US entry options


Firstly I don’t think any of these options should be available once France falls. British interest in Norway would have disappeared overnight because a) they need to guard against invasion b) they need to reinforce North Africa and c) because iron ore is now sourced from France so any positive effect of getting embroiled in Scandinavia is lessened if not removed.

quote:

39. Mining Norwegian coast (Ge/It -1) – Once per game, provided the USA and Norway are both neutral and Paris is Allied controlled, then at the start of any Commonwealth naval action (see 10.1) the CW may turn face-down any face-up CW SCS in the 0 section of the Norwegian Sea sea and announce that they are mining the Norwegian Coast. The Norwegian coast is mined. From now on if the last impulse of the two following turn is blizzard or snow in the Arctic weather zone, Germany may only ship the resource trough the Norwegian Sea and the North Sea else the resources are lost. After the period has passed the cost are cleared of mines by the Norwegians. This US Entry action can be taken multiple times, after the effect clears.


I think two turns (four months) is too much and losing all Swedish resources is too draconian. As said, a % would have got through. Mining that far from home is a commitment and so I would say 3 SCS need to be flipped.

quote:

40 Commonwealth Occupy Narvik (Ge/It -2) - In any future turn after which USSR and Finland are at war the Commonwealth may declare control of the Narvik during any Debark land units at sea step provided Norway is neutral. Instead of declaring war, you do this by simply a debark a land unit into Narvik. From now on if the last impulse of any turn is blizzard or snow in the Arctic weather zone, Germany may not ship the Swedish resources (see 5.1).

Germany may align a Norway during any Axis declaration of war step after CW has occiped Narvik. No more than 1 Norway unit may ever be outside Norway from now on (immediately place any excess (owner’s choice) on the production spiral to arrive as reinforcements in 2 turns). Any Commonwealth units in Narvik remains in the hex even if Norway is aligned to either side.


I think that if the British choose to occupy Narvik then – in true MWIF style – a dice need to be thrown. There will be two tables – chosen dependent on the level of effort the Western Allies put into the operation and the success of the landing operation. Note: to make this attempt the British must have a minimum of 2 corps (of any strength) ready to land in Narvik or this option can't be pursued.

The initial success of the British attempt at landing in Norway requires an additional dice. War is so unpredictable once contact is made with the enemy. A wrong decision here, a gunshot there, a hugely confused situation can lead in all manner of outcomes.

So if the British choose to make this attempt a dice is thrown:

1-8 the landing succeeds (move to next phase)
9-10 the landing fails but the Germans, impressed by the Norwegians ability to defend their neutrality, don’t intervene. The British can’t attempt this again and can only get involved in Norway (in any form) as per normal MWIF rules.

The landing succeeds next phase.

The British force gets control of Narvik. But the situation is confused and so a second dice roll is made and compared to one of two tables:

Table 1 (let’s call ahistorical): The British have committed at least a fighter unit, a bomber unit, two high quality Infantry Corps (rating tbc) and a division to the landing (the land units must be landed at the time Narvik is first occupied). The fighter must be in a port and ready to be transported next turn (when TRS is free) and a bomber must be free to be rebased in to Narvik during the next rebase phase. Note: None of these forces can be sent elsewhere for one year and must remain in Scandinavia or until destroyed.

1-9 - The Norwegians become a full minor country ally of the CW.
10 - The Norwegians become a full minor country ally of Germany

Table 2 (let’s call historical): If the British have anything less than the forces detailed above (but remember they needed to have had at least the 2 corps minimum) them the dice rolls are amended:

1-7 - The Norwegians become a full minor country ally of the CW.
8-10 - The Norwegians become a full minor country ally of Germany

quote:

41 Occupy Swedish iron ore mining districts (Ge/It -6) - In any future impulse after which Commonwealth has Occupied Narvik and USSR and Finland are at war, the Commonwealth may declare control of the Swedish iron ore mining district if Sweden is neutral. Instead of declaring war, you do this by simply a move land unit into any Swedish railway hexes from Narvik to Luelå or by depark a land unit into Luelå. From now all Swedish railway hexes from Narvik to Luelå now become CW controlled. From now on Sweden can’t send any resource to Germany until they are Swedish controlled again.

Germany may align a Sweden during any Axis declaration of war step after Commonwealth has Occupied Swedish iron ore mining districts.
No more than 1 Swedish unit may ever be outside Sweden from now on (immediately place any excess (owner’s choice) on the production spiral to arrive as reinforcements in 2 turns);

Any Commonwealth units in the Swedish iron ore mining district remains in the hex even if Sweden is aligned to either side.


This for me personally is a big problem. The Western Allies simply didn’t have enough personnel and certainly not adequate resources to achieve this. If the Germans gained control of Norway as a minor ally, as a result of the dice rolls above, previously then the CW can’t take this option and can only get involved in Sweden using the normal MWIF rules.

But if Norway is an ally then the CW can ‘declare control’. For this they will need to have appropriate forces in Norway with which to do so. A very minimum of one fighter, two Bombers, two (incl. one high quality) corps an HQ and a division. Even then, I think this action should be treated as a declaration of war and Sweden treated accordingly. The only difference to a normal declaration of war is that the Swedes can’t set up any forces closer than 5 hexes from the line Kiruna, Gallivare, Lulea.

quote:

42 Germany demands fulfilment of Iron Ore trade agreement (Ge/It 1) - In any turn after Narvik is occupied by the Western Allies and Sweden is still Neutral, Germany may demand that Sweden fulfil its Iron ore trade agreement with Germany. If the rout over Narvik is blocked from now on, Sweden compensate each occurrence by sending 2 extra resources to Germany during May\Jun turns and if necessary, also Jun\Jul turns. Germany needs to have 2 extra convoy points out to transport them. By Jan/Feb 1943 the effect is cancelled and Sweden does not compensate any lost resources.





< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/6/2019 11:28:25 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 6
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/6/2019 2:52:40 PM   
gw15


Posts: 807
Joined: 3/21/2010
Status: offline
Paul - didn't v8 Wif have some rule about this? I remember when we were testing v8 WiFon Vassal we had a weird result. Can't remember what happened.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 7
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/6/2019 3:42:57 PM   
rkr1958


Posts: 17636
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

Paul - didn't v8 Wif have some rule about this? I remember when we were testing v8 WiFon Vassal we had a weird result. Can't remember what happened.
Below taken from "World in Flames: Collection's edition Living Rules", 21 April 2019.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Ronnie

(in reply to gw15)
Post #: 8
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/6/2019 6:08:02 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7805
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

Paul - didn't v8 Wif have some rule about this? I remember when we were testing v8 WiFon Vassal we had a weird result. Can't remember what happened.

We agreed on a house rule not to have the almost free -1 modifier for the CW die roll and then, later, the CW threw a 10 !

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to gw15)
Post #: 9
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/6/2019 6:54:02 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 40250
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

Paul - didn't v8 Wif have some rule about this? I remember when we were testing v8 WiFon Vassal we had a weird result. Can't remember what happened.

We agreed on a house rule not to have the almost free -1 modifier for the CW die roll and then, later, the CW threw a 10 !
warspite1

Strange. So this roll is allowed once per game and its effects are permanent. Yet there is a die modifier based on one CV being in the North Sea (and no German presence) on that impulse....

I can see why you did away with it.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 10
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/7/2019 12:00:30 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3022
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
Worth noting is that the Royal Navy must deploy in a previous impulse before making the roll - giving the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine a chance to contest things. The Luftwaffe has a couple new toys in the new counter mix that might be ready to roll right then...

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 11
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/7/2019 2:27:15 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7805
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

Paul - didn't v8 Wif have some rule about this? I remember when we were testing v8 WiFon Vassal we had a weird result. Can't remember what happened.

We agreed on a house rule not to have the almost free -1 modifier for the CW die roll and then, later, the CW threw a 10 !
warspite1

Strange. So this roll is allowed once per game and its effects are permanent. Yet there is a die modifier based on one CV being in the North Sea (and no German presence) on that impulse....

I can see why you did away with it.


It applies to the impulse in which the option is chosen and the roll made, accomplishing it previously doesn't matter. Nonetheless it seems to me it is too easy for the CW to accomplish this feat and thus always negating the possibility of the '10' result. I was playing Germany in the game referenced so arguing in favor of the house rule was both perspicacious and serendipitous.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 12
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/7/2019 2:57:07 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3022
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
All the Kriegsmarine has to do is keep a ship face-up off Norway’s coast (either of 2 zones) to avoid the modifier. Home Fleet can prevent that, if they sail in force, -and- search dice go their way. I don’t think the modifier is overly easy.

< Message edited by brian brian -- 7/7/2019 3:19:14 PM >

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 13
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/7/2019 3:03:25 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8242
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
I agree that that -1 is a little strange ruling. Especially with the die roll table the way it is now. The table looks to me to be too much in the Allied favour with that -1 rule included.

< Message edited by Centuur -- 7/7/2019 3:06:31 PM >


_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 14
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/7/2019 3:42:07 PM   
rkr1958


Posts: 17636
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: offline
I'm just curious. Wasn't all this extensively play tested, including the -1 modifier, before CE was officially released? Or do you believe this an attempt to perhaps "artificially" make Norway more relevant.

I know we can't repeat the thinking and feeling of the time. In the BBC series, "World at War", listening to an interview with Lord Chamberlains' private secretary I had an epiphany moment to why Norway was so critical to the allies in early 1940. At that time the thought that France would be defeated, much less in 6 weeks, was incomprehensible. The British and French at the time were looking at a replay of the trench warfare of WW 1 and were desperately looking for a way to have this new war fought far away from the battlefields of western Europe. What better place than Norway and possibly Finland.

It's interesting how other war games handle Norway. In Avalon Hill's 3rd Reich, Germany can take it with almost certainty with their airborne corps and 9 air factors. This gives them 12 factors attacking 3, or 2:1 odds (defender doubled) of taking Oslo and conquering Norway before the allies can intervene. That is, they take Oslo, Norway surrenders and then they strategically redeploy a 3-3 infantry corps from Germany to Bergen blocking any though of an allied landing there. Bam! Norway's conquered.

2:1 attacks in AH's 3rd Reich are successfully approximately 33 out of 34 times (i.e., on the 2:1 CRT, it's the dreaded 4 followed by a 6 that defeats this attack).

_____________________________

Ronnie

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 15
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/7/2019 6:08:50 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7805
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
Actually, the -1 was added after the bulk of the playtesting. Call it Designer Privilege. There was certainly an attempt to make Norway more relevant as it was fairly standard to just ignore it in WiFFE (which obviously transfers in MWiF since both are RAW7).



_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 16
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/7/2019 6:15:50 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7805
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

All the Kriegsmarine has to do is keep a ship face-up off Norway’s coast (either of 2 zones) to avoid the modifier. Home Fleet can prevent that, if they sail in force, -and- search dice go their way. I don’t think the modifier is overly easy.

Oh yes easy. Just take a naval or a combined and survive the searches and repeat if knocked out. Germany has not much at all to do with their actions anyway. And CW of course is absolutely obligated to try the roll if German units are there - not.

And thus we see the elimination of any degree of significant risk for the Allies and any simulation of the possibility Norway would have joined the Axis over the insult to her sovereignty.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 17
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/7/2019 7:49:57 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8242
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

All the Kriegsmarine has to do is keep a ship face-up off Norway’s coast (either of 2 zones) to avoid the modifier. Home Fleet can prevent that, if they sail in force, -and- search dice go their way. I don’t think the modifier is overly easy.

Oh yes easy. Just take a naval or a combined and survive the searches and repeat if knocked out. Germany has not much at all to do with their actions anyway. And CW of course is absolutely obligated to try the roll if German units are there - not.

And thus we see the elimination of any degree of significant risk for the Allies and any simulation of the possibility Norway would have joined the Axis over the insult to her sovereignty.


I agree. There's only a very small risk for the Allies with this rule the way it is written...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 18
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/7/2019 8:43:56 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3022
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
The Allies have to take at least a Combined to position in each sea area, during a turn without use of forces from previous turn. Then they must take a Naval. Do they take 2 Navals and do nothing on land, or do they start with a Combined and leave a minor opening in the convoy defenses elsewhere? Do they move first in the winter to increase their flexibility here?

In between the 2 impulses, the Germans could park the entire Kriegsmarine in the 2 box of the North Sea, with a quantity of land-based air cover, possibly including a 6 strength FTR2 with a range of 4, if I remember the new counter mix correctly. But at minimum the FTR3, with only a Gladiator or 2 on the CW CVs in the 4 box, with only the Battle Cruiser escorts, no other BB. The WiF CE Germans also have a 2/3 chance of drawing a float-NAV that could patrol the 4 box, possibly with a strong SCS squadron but no other Luftwaffe. One “No Combat” search roll, or 4 surprise for the Germans, and the modifier is lost; those two outcomes together are more likely than the CW clearing the North Sea completely though that could depend on German fortitude after one good CW search roll, and the Germans will have air cover. The Germans can also risk a Cruiser raid to the Norwegian Sea (anything intercepted stops in North Sea), or risk combat in either zone to possibly reduce the required Royal Navy forces to activate the mining roll &/or get the modifier. If the RN force in the 4 box Norwegian Sea is taken out (unlikely but not impossible, and the new float-NAVs can fly there), the CW has to start over with a new pair of Combined/Naval impulses without the turn ending.

As usual in the game, things could be happening elsewhere requiring CW attention - the Med. If a France First is underway the Germans are less likely to have a strong Luftwaffe response. But this very mechanism discourages that strategy on land. The modifier does not only take away the 10 result, it also increases the chance of the best Allied result from 20 to 30%. That result is valuable to the CW with the stronger combat results against CPs, and eventually makes Denmark more of a strategic concern for them, given the new Baltic access rules, unless they decide to attack Norway after a good Allied roll.

The Germans can certainly contest the whole thing and would be wise to do so. Given the action limit system in the game, the first winter of the war is a prime time to put The Kriegsmarine to sea.

Many German players would ignore the whole thing, and some CW players would welcome battle with any Kriegsmarine unit that leaves port to create attrition of it. But some CW players have certainly experienced CV losses when they casually send them into the North Sea early in the war without Hurricane cover in a low box. And some CW players decide the possible outcomes are not worth the trouble.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 19
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/8/2019 12:53:07 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8242
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
But even than, it's too Allied friendly.

The way the rule is written now, it forces the Axis to have a presence in the North Sea, no matter what, to prevent this from happening. That's not right.

One should roll the die after the next Axis impulse that the CW did choose this option. If at that stage, a German organized SCS is in the sea area, the modifier applies.
That is also reasonable, since the British historically stated that they were going to lay mines in Norwegian waters. So an Axis reaction to this announcement should be possible IMHO.



_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 20
RE: The Iron Ore - 7/8/2019 1:29:06 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3022
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
That is very close to what happens right now. It is not obvious how the table interacts with the sequence of play.

The CW has to be in the 4 box in the Norwegian Sea to make the roll on the Mining table, which is done on a Naval impulse only, but before naval movement. They have to be in the 4 box of the North Sea (with CV), to get the modifier. Neither force can be there from the turn before. The Royal Navy moves out, and the Germans then get a chance to interfere. They have a very good chance to take away the modifier by keeping a ship in the North Sea. They have a far smaller (but not zero) chance to interrupt the die roll itself by sailing/flying to the Norwegian Sea. They do not have to be in either sea area in advance.

If the CW wants the modifier, they have to clear the North Sea. If the turn ends first, they have to start all over on this the next turn.


I like the new rule. I would use it as the CW, and would fight hard to get the modifier, too. Not all players would. But the possibilities in that table certainly make the players think about them.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 21
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> The Iron Ore Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.178