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Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/22/2019 7:24:09 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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Either player should be able to "port strike" Truk with air-deployed torpedos as it is a deep-water port.

Numerous Japanese ships were sunk by said weapons in the February '44 strike, Operation Hailstone while in the port, at anchor.
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RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/22/2019 10:26:04 PM   
BBfanboy


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Well the game designers decided it wasn't worth the effort to research port depths and anchorage sites within the ports, nor was it worth the effort to program the torp attack ability in some ports and not others.
It isn't gonna happen so why bring it up?

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RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/22/2019 10:27:25 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Well the game designers decided it wasn't worth the effort to research port depths and anchorage sites within the ports, nor was it worth the effort to program the torp attack ability in some ports and not others.
It isn't gonna happen so why bring it up?


Why not bring it up? I see all sorts of things brought up that will never change over the years.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
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RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/22/2019 10:35:38 PM   
RangerJoe


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Are you referring ships at anchor as in a task force that is still at the port or ships disbanded and some of which would be tied to docks. I think that it was easier to just have the initial attack such as at Pearl Harbor to have SOME torpedo bombers use torpedoes. These torpedoes were also modified. Note also that some ships at Pearl Harbor were unable to be attacked by torpedoes.

Remember that this is a game and not a historical simulation. Treat it as such.

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RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/22/2019 11:08:39 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Well the game designers decided it wasn't worth the effort to research port depths and anchorage sites within the ports, nor was it worth the effort to program the torp attack ability in some ports and not others.
It isn't gonna happen so why bring it up?


Why not bring it up? I see all sorts of things brought up that will never change over the years.

Just wondering what you wanted to see in the thread - musings about RL vs the game reality? Musings about what could have been programmed? Discussion of individual ports and the potential for torpedo attacks there IRL? Discussion about actual raids carried out? A workaround to allow a (post Turn 1) torpedo attack on a port without the need to reprogram the game engine?

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RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/23/2019 12:05:19 AM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Either player should be able to "port strike" Truk with air-deployed torpedos as it is a deep-water port.

Numerous Japanese ships were sunk by said weapons in the February '44 strike, Operation Hailstone while in the port, at anchor.

The Feb '44 strike can be replicated in game.

In game terms, the IJN ships would be formed in task forces but idle in the Truk hex. Few IJN ships were tied up at the dockside (docked in AE terms).

The PH rule exception was made for a very solid reason.

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RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/23/2019 9:09:23 AM   
Ian R

 

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My Avengers (trained to >70 navT) never seem to hit anything much with torpedos in the open ocean, and when they do I usually get the "hit but no explosion" message.

Seriously, wave after wave go in, get shot to pieces, and maybe one in 100* hit something with a torpedo that actually functions.

Dropping enough 500lb bombs on ships in port to generate lots of sys and fire damage works better anyway.
.
.
.

[*possibly an exaggeration]

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Ian R

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RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/26/2019 11:01:47 AM   
tarkalak

 

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Ports are protected with anti-torpedo nets.

Pearl Harbor didn't have these because it was too shallow for torpedoes. Or at least that is what they thought at the time.

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RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/26/2019 3:21:08 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

Ports are protected with anti-torpedo nets.


It may be irrelevant since there will be no more updates/data revisions but Truk lagoon wasn't protected by anti-torpedo nets. There is a photo of the USN attack on Kure Naval Base in Japan itself which may show torpedo tracks (the photo may be scratched though): not really sure which.
Any enlightenment forthcoming? (Mostly bombs it seems though)


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RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/26/2019 5:35:51 PM   
RangerJoe


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Unless you had prior knowledge of ships that could be targeted by torpedoes, more than likely the bombs would be loaded.

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RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/26/2019 5:47:40 PM   
Gridley380


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Let's recall that there were two types of nets in use at the time - major ports sometimes had nets at the entrance (as Pearl did on Dec 7th), and individual ships could also be surrounded by nets (which was not done at Pearl on Dec 7th).

I have no idea whether the IJN routinely deployed nets around individual ships at anchor, but a net at an entrance to Truk lagoon wouldn't keep a TBF from sticking a torp into an IJN ship at anchor there.

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RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/26/2019 8:14:51 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380

Let's recall that there were two types of nets in use at the time - major ports sometimes had nets at the entrance (as Pearl did on Dec 7th), and individual ships could also be surrounded by nets (which was not done at Pearl on Dec 7th).

I have no idea whether the IJN routinely deployed nets around individual ships at anchor, but a net at an entrance to Truk lagoon wouldn't keep a TBF from sticking a torp into an IJN ship at anchor there.


True; the lagoon is like 38 miles wide.

(in reply to Gridley380)
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RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/27/2019 2:36:25 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380

Let's recall that there were two types of nets in use at the time - major ports sometimes had nets at the entrance (as Pearl did on Dec 7th), and individual ships could also be surrounded by nets (which was not done at Pearl on Dec 7th).

I have no idea whether the IJN routinely deployed nets around individual ships at anchor, but a net at an entrance to Truk lagoon wouldn't keep a TBF from sticking a torp into an IJN ship at anchor there.


True; the lagoon is like 38 miles wide.

I thought I saw an article saying 100 miles wide, but I suppose that could have been 100 square miles in area. The pictures in the article and accompanying map showed dozens of islands within the lagoon and several anchorages along the perimeter of the lagoon. There were cargo ships all over the place, some in deep water, and warships were scattering trying to find exit passages that were not stalked by bombers. IIRC, one of the Iowa BBs caught a small IJN DD exiting the lagoon and sank it with very long range gunfire.

So the concept of having torpedo bomber strikes at ships in port would have been a good one if it could have accounted for all the shallows and protective nets involved.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/27/2019 2:53:56 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

So the concept of having torpedo bomber strikes at ships in port would have been a good one if it could have accounted for all the shallows and protective nets involved.


So easy, Rusty1961 should be able to program each port in just an hour or so. That includes the time for all of the research on each port.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 14
RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/27/2019 3:03:04 AM   
BillBrown


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The devs did account for various posibilities. From the manual

Bombers attacking ports will attack any ships at anchor 50% of the time, however, TF’s docked
in port will not be attacked. These attacks use bombs with only a small percentage of torpedo
bombers using torpedoes (as it is assumed these ships may be in dry dock or protected by
torpedo nets).
If there are less than 10 ships at port, the chance of bombers attacking ships
lessens with each number less than 10 (so, bombers would be more likely to attack ships if 9
were in port as opposed to 4).

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 15
RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/27/2019 4:54:28 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

The devs did account for various posibilities. From the manual

Bombers attacking ports will attack any ships at anchor 50% of the time, however, TF’s docked
in port will not be attacked. These attacks use bombs with only a small percentage of torpedo
bombers using torpedoes (as it is assumed these ships may be in dry dock or protected by
torpedo nets).
If there are less than 10 ships at port, the chance of bombers attacking ships
lessens with each number less than 10 (so, bombers would be more likely to attack ships if 9
were in port as opposed to 4).




I didn't know this, or I forgot it after reading it.

I've never seen a torpedo attack on a port-strike, aside from Pearl, but it is good to know it is in the manual at least.

Thank you

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RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/27/2019 7:22:24 PM   
spence

 

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I also have never seen a torpedo attack against ships in harbor except those in PH at the start. I'm pretty sure that in one of the patches that torpedo attacks would only be allowed on turn 1 at Pearl Harbor.

NOTE: According to Zimm's Pearl Harbor the very first decision that the Japanese made in their plan to attack PH was that they would use 40 torpedo carrying bombers (about Sept 41). They made that decision even before they had successfully tested a "shallow water" aerial torpedo.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 17
RE: Truk Lagoon and torpedos - 6/27/2019 7:41:35 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

I also have never seen a torpedo attack against ships in harbor except those in PH at the start. I'm pretty sure that in one of the patches that torpedo attacks would only be allowed on turn 1 at Pearl Harbor.

NOTE: According to Zimm's Pearl Harbor the very first decision that the Japanese made in their plan to attack PH was that they would use 40 torpedo carrying bombers (about Sept 41). They made that decision even before they had successfully tested a "shallow water" aerial torpedo.


I wonder if it can be patched back to what the manual says?

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 18
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