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What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 2:37:46 PM   
larrybush


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From: Florida nowdays
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As an adjunct to MrsWargamer's question on who/what did it best.

What areas do wargames need to improve?

What direction are wargames heading or should head?

What would you like to see in a wargame?

There is no correct answer here, all scales all genres.
Post #: 1
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 3:04:05 PM   
MrsWargamer


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Hmm what a question.

I like to aspects of wargaming that have been done with a couple of products.

I like how Battle Academy and Panzer Corps have been marketed as numerous DLCs. Yes, we WANT a game to have it all in one package. It would be logically cool of BA or PC had been released day one as a Gold edition with everything in it. That's not realistic economically though. I prefer my developers to actually benefit financially enough to want to even start the game's development to begin with.

Order of Battle is marketed as a base game for free, with DLC of content where you get the full package on purchase. I like this, for how it gives you essentially a demo as a built in concept.

If both approaches were routinely done together, it likely would be very enticing. And getting new players is always the challenge.

As for something entirely new, revolutionary even, I'm not sure I have any current brilliance to offer :)

Society has increasingly become a cellphone weilding world. I don't like it... at all.
But somewhere in there is a horrible truth.
Somehow, our wargames need to be able to function on a PC as well as on a cellphone in order to keep up with where society is going.
And no, I don't know how to do that.

Because I recognize, that simple easy games, is not everything.
What is comical, is my cellphone has more 'muscle' when it comes to graphics, than my increasingly older tablets, and even my damned computers in some cases. If my cellphone could talk to my TV directly, I could probably enjoy the better screen size, and enjoy the more powerful computer muscle.

I never thought the day would come, when my phone had a better computer in it than my actual computer.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to larrybush)
Post #: 2
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 3:29:17 PM   
Red2112


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From: Airborn
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Maps, they could sure improve in that department, and a more dynamic AI, weather it be a single mission or a campaign. Thereīs better players now days, so scripted scenarios just donīt quite make it like 20 years ago. This also applys to other games (FPS), people want dynamic AIīs in all genders. I would also like comms/electronic warfare and supplies to be more present, same as anphibious and air support/para-drops. Some of the reasons I like Mark Hermans games

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RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 3:37:46 PM   
Mobeer


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Games as a service - it seems crazy to sell a game for a single one-off payment when many other products are moving to regular payments. Don't buy a $1000 TV, just pay a mere $9.95 a week, for the next 5 years. So don't sell a $50 game; sell a $1/week subscription instead.

DLC - Charge extra for DLC; US campaign free, just $7 extra to play as the Russians.

More Early Access - it doesn't make sense to wait for a product to be completely finished to start charging for it. As soon as minimum viable product exists it should be on sale and generating revenue.

(in reply to MrsWargamer)
Post #: 4
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 5:27:33 PM   
wodin


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WEGO or simultaneous turn mechanics, lets ditch IGOUGO, it's a left over from boardgames that's now redundant.

As far as tactical games goes lets have a game that finally has all the features needed. Every game that's been released that's top down has something missing, be it multi level buildings or has boardgame mechanics that aren't needed and only designed that way due to boardgame limitations.

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RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 5:49:46 PM   
Zovs


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quote:

WEGO or simultaneous turn mechanics, lets ditch IGOUGO, it's a left over from boardgames that's now redundant.


Completely disagree it's not redundant at all! It's a genius that has been around for over 60 years and still works just fine.

I hate RTS games and if that is what WEGO is then count me out. Or if its like CC or that Warcraft game then I don't want anything to do with them.

I think computer war games are on the correct course (except any RTS things). They at times don't give the same depth as a real board war game, but in a real board war game you actually have to know the rules and figure out how to play the game using both the charts and rules and interacting with another human being. If anything computer war games have totally dumbed that down and this in return has effected players. On the one hand it brings in new younger folks, but on the other hand its a lot of just pointing and clicking. The merits of that is that you can work more on strategy and tactics but if you don't know how the game engine works or the "rules" then your going to be lost.

Of course I suppose I am an old Dinosaur having starting war gaming back in the late 70's and then embracing computerized war games in the late 80s and 90s.

So no IGOUGO is not redundant.

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RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 6:04:04 PM   
zakblood


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i've played about 2 or 3 RTS game in my life, bought more, but either loaded up once and hated them, or just not found them fun, or easy to get on with or real for that matter, as controlling X numbers of units with most interfaces means for me, it's unplayable, the UI is so poor that unless you have four sets of eyes and 3 pairs of hands and reflexes of a child, you just get nowhere so i also prefer the turn based and slower pace games of all types, can't say i've changed over the years either, as never like them, and maybe never will, RTS for me in war games terms, are for the few, not for the many, but could be wrong, as each to there own.

so in regards to direction, for me, i'd like the AI to be somewhat smarter, and less time spent on what everyone else wants, which is online play, as yet, in my time on the planet, i've spent maybe a 1000 hours at most online gaming, and that wasn't a war game either, it's a RPG, for pure war gaming, i'd have no idea, but i can say for 100% sure, is that i've tested way more than i've ever played online, as so far i've never yet once played a online game with anyone on a war game, and maybe never will, but testing isn't playing, while i enjoy the testing of anything, there is nothing in online play that interests me what so ever and again maybe never will.

i'd like bigger maps, every game to have an editor and one that's use able, not just something as a last minute thought.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 7
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 6:52:20 PM   
larrybush


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Yep Editors are really helpful. I think most wargamers are game designers at heart!

AT 67 I'm an old school player, started in the 70's. Played some RTS that were fun, but still my preference is turn based. WEGO is probably the best simulation of time but I've played plenty of IGOUGO turn sequences. Some have been quite novel. (I've played World of Warcraft for 5 years - The daughter and I have had the absolute most belly laughs in this game!)

I somewhat of a niche wargamer (in a niche market), I mostly like Operational level games. Mind you I've played all kinds of fun squad level and Grand Strategy too.

I think lots of options are a good thing so players can customize to their playing style. Micromanagers can micromanage and plan and watch generals could plan and watch.

I like realism! I generally prefer a game which give me a similar challenge that a field commander would have. I like command and control rules which disallow running amok all over a given map. You know even on a tactical level Tank platoons were in a formation. (Well at least the Germans were)

Editors are important.

I think computers could do a better job at simulating the logistics. WE still for the most just have the unit must trace so many hexes to parent HQ or rail, which has to trace so many to supply source etc. Same as board games. How many times have I created a break through but really accomplished little? The supply lines can instantly vary to alternate routes and maybe I cut off a couple of units. There should be more to the logistics tail - Supply dumps that can't move quickly - Rail heads that cannot be instantly changed to another location - Truck/horse units that move supply from the heads and dumps to the line. Computers could do all this. When you get that breakthrough, you might be threatening the entire enemy's logistics network. Sending entire army's retreating or becoming non-supplied.

Computers could do a better job at Fog of War. Not terrible at this now but many things could be better.

Reconnaissance units could have more functionality, right now their mostly just another combat unit. (there are some notable exceptions) I think computers could do this better. I remember a read where the recon units were calling back to the parent Division telling them where the soft ground was, where the suitable tank ground was, calling out enemy positions. Some how they managed to do this without getting eliminated or stuck in a day long firefight.

Be neat to see a player able to organize task groups and Kampfgroups (Or whatever the Soviets called them, if they used them) so a player does not all-ways fight in the organic table of organization. Be nice to see a game that allows unit size variations (remember Panzerkrieg).


< Message edited by larrybush -- 6/21/2019 11:43:45 PM >

(in reply to zakblood)
Post #: 8
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 6:52:27 PM   
Red2112


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I donīt see WEGO as RTS, itīs quite different actually.

RTS in a Wargame is a click fest even if it has a pause option, so I donīt find it fit for this gender to be honest.

While folks/kids might be wanting MP, MP today is also quite different then what it used to be. Some might not agree, but I think the more options that we have (today) the less communicative people are in general! Unless your in some selective group, people just donīt bother even talking/typing, and they really donīt care to meet you either. Itīs very sad the direction all this has gone now days Some do try to communicate, but this is becoming a minority as we advance in tech. People are in there own bubble and really donīt give a flying s*** what the rest are up to/need/want. People are more isolated then ever now which is wierd really.

I know alot of people (I myslef) who enjoy co-op alot better then a vs MP match. Even then people donīt say much! LOL



And I agree with Zak, I forgot to mention a good editor is a great addition to any wargame.

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RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 7:03:10 PM   
Red2112


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Forgot to add that games should make more use of "command points" with there HQīs, this makes it more a thinking game, same goes with supplies as already stated above, among other mechanisims that make you take decisions... I personally just donīt like moving counters like a madman, and when I find games who makes you play in this style (for what ever reason), Iam then reminded why I like boardgames.

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RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 7:23:24 PM   
MrsWargamer


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NO love for RTS for the most part.

But WEGO is to my mind superior to turn based IGOUGO in that it is immune to gamey mechanics. The best example is the jeep/kubel scout in Steel Panthers. A unit that can race all over the map revealing stuff for the cost of a disposable unit of no merit.

WEGO makes you plan a move that is sensible, and then live with that choice until next turn. WEGO does actually use IGOUGO to a point, but, isn't very gamey prone.

But WEGO might have it's limits below a certain tactical level. Once you go below company level, I'm unsure I would automatically support it.
Real time only seems to work with top down, low unit density games such as Close Combat. I have zero interest in real time past the Close Combat level of simulation for the most part. I want my games to reflect real world levels of thinking, and not mastery of a mouse input device.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to Red2112)
Post #: 11
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 7:36:47 PM   
AndySfromVA

 

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I'd like to see more wargames that allow you to delegate command to subordinates.
Why should I have to move every one of 300 units every turn? Or spend an hour setting each parameter of my country's economy.
When I'm playing a wargame I want to focus on strategy - how can I beat the enemy - not on minutiae.

< Message edited by AndySfromVA -- 6/21/2019 7:37:16 PM >

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RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 7:54:36 PM   
MrsWargamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndySfromVA

I'd like to see more wargames that allow you to delegate command to subordinates.
Why should I have to move every one of 300 units every turn? Or spend an hour setting each parameter of my country's economy.
When I'm playing a wargame I want to focus on strategy - how can I beat the enemy - not on minutiae.


I agree entirely.

This is 100% of my objection to every RTS design out there outside of Close Combat. Chasing after every last unit like an overworked grade 3 teacher is NOT why I play wargames.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to AndySfromVA)
Post #: 13
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 7:59:36 PM   
larrybush


Posts: 620
Joined: 11/17/2005
From: Florida nowdays
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: AndySfromVA

I'd like to see more wargames that allow you to delegate command to subordinates.
Why should I have to move every one of 300 units every turn? Or spend an hour setting each parameter of my country's economy.
When I'm playing a wargame I want to focus on strategy - how can I beat the enemy - not on minutiae.


I agree entirely.

This is 100% of my objection to every RTS design out there outside of Close Combat. Chasing after every last unit like an overworked grade 3 teacher is NOT why I play wargames.


Yep

(in reply to MrsWargamer)
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RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 8:07:11 PM   
zakblood


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i myself don't class close combat as a pure RTS either as one of the reviewers puts it,

quote:

“As always, we are left with a real-time wargame that focuses on tactics rather than mindless clicking. Tactical planning and careful approach pays off, as the individual units amass experience that makes them more viable and effective in combat.”

(in reply to larrybush)
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RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 8:08:02 PM   
zakblood


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if it was a mindless RTS clickfest, i wouldn't have done the alpha or beta tbh

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RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 9:11:22 PM   
jack54


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I hope we never 'NEED' an internet connection to run wargames. I really despise when a program checks the internet to allow you to run it.

I'd would also like unit detail in the future. I'm fine with board-game like chits with power ratings but it would be nice in the future to be able to drill down and see unit composition. (Some games are doing it already like GG , Vic and some others.) I hope to see more of it.


< Message edited by jack54 -- 6/21/2019 9:12:56 PM >


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RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/21/2019 11:16:19 PM   
demyansk


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Games that have a lobby to play games direct like all the fps games.

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RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/22/2019 12:05:25 AM   
MrsWargamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: demyansk

Games that have a lobby to play games direct like all the fps games.


Would you be referencing something like the player matchup functionality that is part of playing something like Battle Academy? I'm a big fan of being able to start the game, and then saying "hey, who wants to get beaten by a girl in a wargame?" :) And be able to play the game in live real time time after turn.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to demyansk)
Post #: 19
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/22/2019 1:10:19 AM   
stormbringer3

 

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IMO AI over graphics every time.

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RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/22/2019 2:16:03 AM   
Rosseau

 

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Some of my favorite Matrix games have really confusing UIs. I am willing to put up with them, but new gamers will not. Part of the problem is we have brilliant programmers who don't do UIs well.

For example, how is the dev of Tigers on the Hunt, working alone, supposed to also design a great UI. That is kind of Matrix responsibility to provide or maybe pay the consequences of weak sales. Dunno.

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RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/22/2019 4:12:51 AM   
MrsWargamer


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I'll agree, I have Tigers on the Hunt. It might be very much like ASL in play, but unfortunately, the UI is as impossing as the board game's manual is too.

Somewhere that shouldn't have happened.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to Rosseau)
Post #: 22
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/22/2019 5:00:40 AM   
Gilmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

quote:

WEGO or simultaneous turn mechanics, lets ditch IGOUGO, it's a left over from boardgames that's now redundant.


Completely disagree it's not redundant at all! It's a genius that has been around for over 60 years and still works just fine.

I hate RTS games and if that is what WEGO is then count me out. Or if its like CC or that Warcraft game then I don't want anything to do with them.

I think computer war games are on the correct course (except any RTS things). They at times don't give the same depth as a real board war game, but in a real board war game you actually have to know the rules and figure out how to play the game using both the charts and rules and interacting with another human being. If anything computer war games have totally dumbed that down and this in return has effected players. On the one hand it brings in new younger folks, but on the other hand its a lot of just pointing and clicking. The merits of that is that you can work more on strategy and tactics but if you don't know how the game engine works or the "rules" then your going to be lost.

Of course I suppose I am an old Dinosaur having starting war gaming back in the late 70's and then embracing computerized war games in the late 80s and 90s.

So no IGOUGO is not redundant.


Although the engine is quite dated, the Ageod WEGO was pretty cool for its time.I liked that there was some uncertainty that you might be moving into the same place the other guy is moving into and not expecting it. Sometimes works out great, other times not so much. WITP-AE is WEGO.

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Post #: 23
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/24/2019 7:45:23 AM   
Red2112


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Although a old video, hereīs some good insight on game development that both us gamers and game designers should take into account...

Enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLIq4ceXZAw

Your the guest, but they donīt need to rebuild there house for you.

Think about all this when you talk/review a game.

Red

--


< Message edited by Red2112 -- 6/24/2019 7:46:38 AM >


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Post #: 24
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/24/2019 1:35:27 PM   
wodin


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I hate click fest rts games, that's not WEGO. Check Flashpoint Campaigns, that is WEGO.I'd take igougo every time over rts click fests, though rts can be done well.

< Message edited by wodin -- 6/24/2019 1:38:00 PM >


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Post #: 25
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/24/2019 1:36:09 PM   
76mm


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At least at the tactical level, I would like more "role-playing" elements--make commanders more relevant, give them more individuality. Be able to track unit kills, casualties, experience, etc.

I would also like to be able to import/export data from saved games more easily, to facilitate meta campaigns using different operational and tactical level games.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 6/24/2019 4:57:30 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/24/2019 1:40:10 PM   
wodin


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Me too!

It's a shame that DC Barbarossa didn't sell enough. For me it lights the way of the future. Sadly though seems light was turned off.
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

At least at the tactical level, I would like more "role-playing" elements--make commanders more relevant, give them more individuality. Be able to track unit kills, casualties, experience, etc.

I would also like to be able to import/export data from saved games more easily, to facility meta campaigns using different operational and tactical level games.



_____________________________


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Post #: 27
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/24/2019 1:44:56 PM   
zakblood


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DC Barbarossa is an epic game, really enjoyed the beta, played it to death and still find the editor easy and what's not to love about it?

fresh, easy on easy, insane on hard, small footprint so plays on anything and rock stable

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Post #: 28
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/24/2019 3:23:52 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

It's a shame that DC Barbarossa didn't sell enough. For me it lights the way of the future. Sadly though seems light was turned off.

That sounds inspiring ... but what is wrong with it? Zak says the Editor is easy, I like that! Can it be edited to 1941-1945? To include all of the ETO? I looked at the product page and the screen shots don't seem too bad.

Maybe its the subject matter. Barbarossa doesn't hold my attention. A child can defeat Stalin early on, it's not much of a game, unless it is 'balanced' by the designer, but then it would fail the 'historical simulation' part. And it's a pretty specific thing to cover, meaning that a lot changes once you get into 1942 and later so either you have to program a lot or make it flexible from the start.

(in reply to zakblood)
Post #: 29
RE: What direction could/should wargames take? - 6/24/2019 4:55:53 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
It's a shame that DC Barbarossa didn't sell enough. For me it lights the way of the future. Sadly though seems light was turned off.

Honestly, I didn't care for the implementation in DC Barbarossa at all, in fact I found the "personal interactions" to be annoying enough that I stopped playing halfway through my first game and never played again. i don't really recall what I found so annoying, other than the game's focus on the German side.

I think this is part of the reason why this kind of thing is so rare in wargames--it is very difficult to do it well.

(in reply to wodin)
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