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Population/manpower stuff - 6/14/2019 6:48:53 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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Again while undating the index i came across stuff on population/manpower that is not clear.

I'll start with the basics were confirmation is required.

Population determines how many manpower factories there are at the start of any scenario. Generally there should be the same number but scanario design may change this to reflect any damage, migration etc. that may have already occured.

Population is fixed and cannot be change. Manpower my change due to damage, migration etc.

Evacuaton is a voluntary thing, migration is involuntary casued by combat.

Manpower factories cannot be evacuated but the manual implies that they can in the section MANPOWER EVACUATION AND MIGRATION.

Evacuated factories are sent to known locations (your choice), migration can anywhere the AI chooses.

Manpower factories in a hex can go up as well as down due to migration.

In event log the report on migration and missing pop are running totals.

Missing population in the event log means, in military terms, missing in action.


One obscure observation

Why does the event log report missing pop when no population migrates no factory is evacuated? If this is due to damage to captured locations why is it reported as Soviet missing when it is already recorded as a Manpower city/town loss in the production screen. For instance in my test I got 50K (1 ppo pt) missing having lost 11 small manpower factories, none of which migrated. Looking from the Axis view point all were heavily damaged after capture but none destoyed compeltely.



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RE: Population/manpower stuff - 6/14/2019 7:21:37 AM   
xhoel


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There is no evacuation of manpower so I don't know what the manual means by that, must be a mistake. Migrating manpower gets relocated somewhere else thus increasing the manpower of that location.

I don't think missing population refers to missing in action. Looking forward to a definitive answer on that and the other points you made!

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RE: Population/manpower stuff - 6/14/2019 10:30:17 AM   
56ajax


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Yes, Population is a fixed attribute of a City/Town etc and is used to represent the size of that City/Town on T1 of the scenario.

In the GC 41, on T1 Population and Manpower have the same value. Manpower is used to determine the number of new recruits available. Manpower can suffer damage.

That's my understanding.

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RE: Population/manpower stuff - 6/14/2019 1:40:32 PM   
Telemecus


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Each manpower point represents 50 000 population. The only time I saw Axis with missing population in the early turns was when encircled Soviet unis marauded into Hungary and captured towns. So I assumed "missing population" meant people in towns that are killed or still in migration. Many civilians (not in the manpower pool) were killed in the war - they are not evacuated and not damaged manpower (dead people do not become alive again) so missing population seems to be the only place to represent them?

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RE: Population/manpower stuff - 6/15/2019 5:21:16 AM   
56ajax


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In the 41 campaign, on T1, there is a 1:1 ratio in a city between Population and Manpower.

In the 42 campaign, on T1, this is not the case. Some captured cities have lower manpower than population and the major cities on the Eastern edge of the map have manpower higher than population, by up to 10 points. I assume this is a contrivance to handle historical migration for post 41 scenarios. I have not seen any evidence that this happens in the 41 campaign.

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RE: Population/manpower stuff - 6/15/2019 9:45:02 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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I'm still trying to work out stuff out so I carried out a very simple test on the first day of the main campaign. The only places captured were small soviet towns with a total pop of 11 each with in varying amounts of damage. None were destroyed an there was no migration. There was a 50K missing report and the total manpower factory reduction of 11. The later matches the the 11 capture manpower ans is clear.

Were the heck does the missing 50K come in? Is it just candy floss? They don't seem to ever reappear and the don't appear to affect anything. Just causualties of war.

As each pop/man pt is 50K shouldn't there be a corresponding reduction to overall manpower of 1 for every 50K missing?
What does damage to manpower factories actually represent? The term manpower factory is just the games way of saying we have x amount of people to fight the war with. If some go mssing then you have less, hence fewer manpower factories.
If a manpower factory is damage that should have a similar effect but it doen't appear to. Are they killed or injured?
Does the 50K missing represents the total killed for damaged manpower factories/migration?
Manpower factories repair quickly, 3% a week. Isn't that too high considering some have gone missing or have been injured?

Lot of questions here that need clarification.

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RE: Population/manpower stuff - 6/15/2019 10:12:31 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen
The only places captured were small soviet towns with a total pop of 11 each with in varying amounts of damage. None were destroyed an there was no migration. There was a 50K missing report and the total manpower factory reduction of 11. The later matches the the 11 capture manpower ans is clear....

As each pop/man pt is 50K shouldn't there be a corresponding reduction to overall manpower of 1 for every 50K missing?


And just to be clear when you click on them on the map when they are in Axis hands they still add up to 11. You could see 11 manpower production on the Soviet side, but this would now look like 10 captured on the Axis side?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen
Just causualties of war.

I am pretty certain yes - but civilian casualties so do not appear in the normal losses screen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen
What does damage to manpower factories actually represent? The term manpower factory is just the games way of saying we have x amount of people to fight the war with. If some go mssing then you have less, hence fewer manpower factories.
If a manpower factory is damage that should have a similar effect but it doen't appear to. Are they killed or injured?

I assume injured or ill but not killed - hence why they can be repaired. While "damaged" they cannot produce as many manpower in just the same way as damaged aircraft factories cannot produce as many aircraft. So you would expect a manpower factory with 25% damage to produce half the manpower it would with no damage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen
Does the 50K missing represents the total killed for damaged manpower factories/migration?

My guess is damage has nothing to do with missing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen
Manpower factories repair quickly, 3% a week. Isn't that too high considering some have gone missing or have been injured?

see post 906 here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4250683&mpage=31
and final paragraph of post 948 here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4250683&mpage=32

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Post #: 7
RE: Population/manpower stuff - 6/16/2019 7:58:59 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
And just to be clear when you click on them on the map when they are in Axis hands they still add up to 11. You could see 11 manpower production on the Soviet side, but this would now look like 10 captured on the Axis side?


Axis side shows 11 captured.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
I assume injured or ill but not killed - hence why they can be repaired. While "damaged" they cannot produce as many manpower in just the same way as damaged aircraft factories cannot produce as many aircraft. So you would expect a manpower factory with 25% damage to produce half the manpower it would with no damage.


So destroyed means killed, damaged mean injured, that make some sense. However, in my example your not telling me that no civilains were killed in the process of the Axis capturing those 11 manpower points. This is why I think the term missing is being used. But as I said I cannot find anything that confirms that nor can I find anything anywhere that references what actually happens to them. I'm convinced it's just eye candy.

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RE: Population/manpower stuff - 6/20/2019 5:07:25 AM   
56ajax


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At least it appears that Migration is working as I understood it. When a town/city is over run, some manpower migrate to other parts of the country. Thus in captured territory Population can be > Manpower and in uncaptured territory Population can be less than Manpower.

How much and to which town/city migration occurs is a mystery

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A trouble shared is not halved.

God listens to those close by.

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Post #: 9
RE: Population/manpower stuff - 6/20/2019 9:55:27 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

At least it appears that Migration is working as I understood it. When a town/city is over run, some manpower migrate to other parts of the country. Thus in captured territory Population can be > Manpower and in uncaptured territory Population can be less than Manpower.

How much and to which town/city migration occurs is a mystery


From tests my observation are

Missing pop does not occur until July 41 i.e. when migration starts.

You can have missing pop without migration.

Converly you can have migration without missing pop.

Migration can go anywhere but the ai tends to pick small pop 1 towns but it can go anywhere, even off map.

Not all migration turns up. This should be the missing pop but it is not always recorded as such. Ie. 250K (5 factories) migrates, only 4 turn up somewhere esle but no missing report.

If anybody has any early soviet saves can you check this please.




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