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Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/11/2019 8:45:47 AM   
marcdhanna

 

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So I've got another opponent brazenly lining up various French raiders right off Denmark in 1939-early 1940, clipping the Norway resources from 40 to 0.

Notwithstanding that this is grossly ahistorical, is this now a standard tactic for the WA in early war?

Because it seems like trying to attack the French Navy is a waste of resources for the Germans since those French naval units will mostly disappear anyway on the fall of France. Or have I got that wrong?

I've sent some subs in but it sure seems like an unnecessary disaster to send in the German Capital ships. I suppose I could bomb them if the weather clears, but what's the point?

Personally I think using the French navy purposefully like this because 'we know France is gonna fall' is a gamey and ahistorical tactic that should be banned. But it appears of course to be a legitimate strategy in this game.

Any comments on this thanks!

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/11/2019 9:30:04 AM   
demyansk


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I had the same thing happen to me in a recent game. It's definitely not historical and it seems to me a gamey tactic. Maybe, a rule of their destruction could give the Axis enormous production points? Perhaps the map could be off limits to these ships, however part of the game allows weird tactics that might work. Good points on this and I guess it depends on how you look at these battles.

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/11/2019 9:51:17 AM   
marcdhanna

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: demyansk

I had the same thing happen to me in a recent game. It's definitely not historical and it seems to me a gamey tactic. Maybe, a rule of their destruction could give the Axis enormous production points? Perhaps the map could be off limits to these ships, however part of the game allows weird tactics that might work. Good points on this and I guess it depends on how you look at these battles.


Thanks for that feedback. Clearly the French pay no penalty for sacrificing the navy in such a vulnerable way. True, the Germans gain national morale for sinking capital ships, but I'd rather have those resources from Norway and not spend my navy and planes on destruction of a sacrificial navy.

Right now I'm playing two games and clearly very odd stuff is happening very early on I've barely started playing opponents! Kudos to the creative players for finding gamey distortions but I have nits to pick with the developers.


1) As above, French naval power wastage of Norway resources down to nil.

2) Not using armor or air to take out Poland but instead moving them over for an autumn '39 of cracking open the Maginot Line at Strasbourg (key road city) because the Maginot Line is WEAKER at the city for some inexplicable reason!

3) Naval air bombing of ships in stormy seas! Hello, aircraft did not operate in storms during WW2 at all, but they do in this game. They can operate from clear terrain hexes as if the target hexes are in clear terrain. Why? As a result, carriers can be abused by ground air from clear hexes in Europe and also can't fly CAP missions over their own battleships, which were dive-bombed by super-stukas into oblivion.

4) Malta must be invaded not suppressed, because Malta can't be suppressed like the Axis did on multiple occasions during WW2.

5) [edit] forgot -- Paratroop planes take off from clear hex in France, fly through storms in the channel right over the aircraft carriers, land in clear hexes in England, seemingly without a hitch.

No wonder Sealion is a peace of cake; the UK can't defend against it with their best defensive assets. Storms in the channel ought to protect England, not the other way around!

I'm impressed these creative players can find rules twists to game the system but now it seems I'm not playing WW2, it's something else. I'd like some important things to operate in a WW2-ish fashion in a game like this.

This game has been around for some time now I would think this stuff would have been brought up before and questioned and maybe it has. I do know that item 2) is relatively new since another gaming expert had commented on it.






< Message edited by marcdhanna -- 6/11/2019 10:11:07 AM >


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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/11/2019 10:35:06 AM   
El Condoro

 

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As I am the opponent with the French fleet blockading Norway, I guess I can comment! :)

Nearly every opponent I have played uses the tactic and I agree it is not historical. That said, whenever it is done to me I just wait for the French to be defeated and it soon ends. I expect to lose the 30-40 MPP per turn and factor it into my planning. If it doesn't happen I expect the next thing...

The second non-historical use of the French navy is the suicide attack against the Italian fleet. This is being done to me in another game and although I sent u-boats in anticipation of it, the suicidal French sailors have caused a lot of damage to the Regia Marina. I will be interested to see if I can make him pay for his brazen disregard for French lives!

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/11/2019 11:06:23 AM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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Sacrificing French Navy certainly is gamey. I don't employ that tactic but don't think its that crazy that the French Navy would block Norwegian.

Scouting with Italian Navy before they enter is also complete BS.


1) Buy a German Maritime bomber early. Germans start with lv 1 Naval weapons so the French go down easily. Blockade Halifax they will either have to send French or waste Brit Navy.. If your opponent wastes to much French Navy go all France and attack Algiers and/or early amphib on GB.

2) I agree Maginot line should be stronger.

3) I don't think bombers can attack in bad weather.

4) Thats the game.

5) hmm could go either way. Take off and land in good weather fly thru bad weather, carrier in bad weather. I agree interceptors should reduce paratroopers more even when escorted. The new supply rules game significantly reduced the gamey aspect of paratroopers.

I tend to agree that sealion is still to easy but improving over time. In the first 2 turns the Brits should invest in AA research. Usually they will have lv 2 AA by sealion (except with new research rules maybe not). Retreat entire BEF & HQ reinforce HQ to 10 upgrade to Monty. Buy 3 AA's early. If Paratroopers dont land in a supply hex they now go own easily.

I agree German Navy controlling channel is silly tho. Its mainly because of the strength of the subs which has been reduced.


Over time many "historic" issues have improved.









< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 6/11/2019 11:17:56 AM >

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/11/2019 4:39:55 PM   
marcdhanna

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: El Condoro

As I am the opponent with the French fleet blockading Norway, I guess I can comment! :)

Nearly every opponent I have played uses the tactic and I agree it is not historical. That said, whenever it is done to me I just wait for the French to be defeated and it soon ends. I expect to lose the 30-40 MPP per turn and factor it into my planning. If it doesn't happen I expect the next thing...

The second non-historical use of the French navy is the suicide attack against the Italian fleet. This is being done to me in another game and although I sent u-boats in anticipation of it, the suicidal French sailors have caused a lot of damage to the Regia Marina. I will be interested to see if I can make him pay for his brazen disregard for French lives!


Yes, of course you must comment and am glad you have done so! I was thinking this is a common tactic, to use the French fleets for nuking the convoys from Norway.

I hadn't even thought about you using the Frenchies later to suicide on Italy. Gulp!


quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

Sacrificing French Navy certainly is gamey. I don't employ that tactic but don't think its that crazy that the French Navy would block Norwegian.

Scouting with Italian Navy before they enter is also complete BS.


1) Buy a German Maritime bomber early. Germans start with lv 1 Naval weapons so the French go down easily. Blockade Halifax they will either have to send French or waste Brit Navy.. If your opponent wastes to much French Navy go all France and attack Algiers and/or early amphib on GB.

2) I agree Maginot line should be stronger.

3) I don't think bombers can attack in bad weather.

4) Thats the game.

5) hmm could go either way. Take off and land in good weather fly thru bad weather, carrier in bad weather. I agree interceptors should reduce paratroopers more even when escorted. The new supply rules game significantly reduced the gamey aspect of paratroopers.

I tend to agree that sealion is still to easy but improving over time. In the first 2 turns the Brits should invest in AA research. Usually they will have lv 2 AA by sealion (except with new research rules maybe not). Retreat entire BEF & HQ reinforce HQ to 10 upgrade to Monty. Buy 3 AA's early. If Paratroopers dont land in a supply hex they now go own easily.

I agree German Navy controlling channel is silly tho. Its mainly because of the strength of the subs which has been reduced.


Over time many "historic" issues have improved.


Hi thanks for your feedback, too.

a) I have to disagree that the French would EVER put their fleets out there provoking Germany without the Brits risking theirs, too. The French were notoriously suspicious that Britain was setting them up to take a fall for them during this period.

No, this is a gamey tactic due to the known fact that France is doomed.

I was wrong about the ability to attack bad weather hexes as Fafnir pointed out in another thread. The paratrooper thing, I think they should take an additional hit/hits if they fly through bad weather. they would have to fly low, and would lose formation in the storms, resulting in a badly scattered drop, even worse than usual.

That's the Malta game -- yes okay!

I do appreciate the tips one must engage in to figure out how to deal with naval power and Sealion, thanks!

Yes I can see the developers are interested in process improvements on the game.

thanks Marc







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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/11/2019 7:15:31 PM   
demyansk


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What about Germans getting control of French fleet after surrender? Hitler should have grabbed them.

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/11/2019 7:25:00 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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The presence of Allied naval units on the Norwegian convoy line to Germany will swing 1-4% towards the Axis every turn, so if the French are there for some time then Norway will become a much better target for Axis diplomacy rather than invasion.

Maybe we could increase the effect on Norway to discourage the use of the French fleet in this way, but there is probably a limit as to how much is reasonable.

Bear in mind too that a French fleet operating against the Norwegian convoy is not in position to prevent an Italian landing or advance in North Africa, so it may render the complete conquest of France more likely.

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/11/2019 8:23:25 PM   
El Condoro

 

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I would like to see the effect on France of a fleet suicide against the Regia Marina increased. Now it is all gain for little pain for the Allied player because the French will surrender anyway. Perhaps the French have a NM script that makes their surrender more likely for doing so: less than x units (ships) within 100 hexes (the whole map) of a French port will affect NM negatively?

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/11/2019 11:44:02 PM   
demyansk


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I play this game and I hate to try any amphibious invasions, I love the land

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/12/2019 2:49:57 AM   
marcdhanna

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

The presence of Allied naval units on the Norwegian convoy line to Germany will swing 1-4% towards the Axis every turn, so if the French are there for some time then Norway will become a much better target for Axis diplomacy rather than invasion.

Maybe we could increase the effect on Norway to discourage the use of the French fleet in this way, but there is probably a limit as to how much is reasonable.

Bear in mind too that a French fleet operating against the Norwegian convoy is not in position to prevent an Italian landing or advance in North Africa, so it may render the complete conquest of France more likely.



I'll take this into consideration. The time is nigh for the Axis to make decisions about whether or not to invoke the Denmark/Norway trigger but I'm not sure there will be enough effect to hope for a Norwegian axis coup and what benefits this could bring.

Will certainly bear in mind that North Aftrica is more exposed and a complete conquer of France is a possibility. I haven't thought in those terms as of yet === noobish lack of experience

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/12/2019 8:11:48 AM   
endrsgm

 

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i know there has been some discussion regarding the possibility of the germans buying a 3rd para unit and then doing a very quick assault into britain during the attack on the low countries. thats a huge game of the system. the raiding on the convoy lines by french naval units isnt that huge, it really leaves africa wide open and weakens the expected ploy of sending the entire french navy after the italian navy.

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/12/2019 1:41:39 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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quote:

Will certainly bear in mind that North Aftrica is more exposed and a complete conquer of France is a possibility. I haven't thought in those terms as of yet === noobish lack of experience


Hi Marc,

Sometimes certain game play choices are self balancing as while let's say the French targeting Norwegian convoys is on the one hand ahistorical, so too would be the opportunity for the Italians to then land in North Africa as Bill has suggested.

While we do attempt to address potential game breaking issues in game, at the same time we don't want to entirely limit reasonable game play choices so long as there are pros and cons to each decision with the possibility of each decision being counter acted in some other way to ensure overall balance in the end.

For example, some players had taken issue in the past when an Axis side would nearly bring the entirety of their air power to North Africa to aid in the conquer of Egypt and so on. While we felt that this might be a situation of win one battle but lose the war (as Barbarossa would potentially struggle as a result), we did keep the possibility open but simply made it a bit more costly to do so in the end. This keeps the what if option of such a move open to players, but likely brought the pros vs cons of such a move closer to even that what it initially would have been.

Going back to the other possibility of the French navy being used to attack the Italian navy prior to surrender, and again while unhistorical, we still feel players should have some leeway to explore different strategies and options in game. To partially address this we had recently doubled the National Morale losses and bonuses due to naval combat which can potentially accelerate French surrender from such a move if it does not go well. Now such a move is not without some potential liability either.

Hope this helps,
Hubert



< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 6/12/2019 1:43:58 PM >


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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/12/2019 10:34:39 PM   
demyansk


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Can someone explain to me the NM, national morale and how it figures into play. I never pay attention to it!!!

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/12/2019 10:42:04 PM   
Taxman66


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1. If National Morale hits 0 the country will surrender.

2. National Morale has a significant influence on unit morale (along with readiness, health, supply). Unit morale directly influences combat results.

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/13/2019 4:54:59 AM   
marcdhanna

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

quote:

Will certainly bear in mind that North Aftrica is more exposed and a complete conquer of France is a possibility. I haven't thought in those terms as of yet === noobish lack of experience


Hi Marc,

Sometimes certain game play choices are self balancing as while let's say the French targeting Norwegian convoys is on the one hand ahistorical, so too would be the opportunity for the Italians to then land in North Africa as Bill has suggested.

While we do attempt to address potential game breaking issues in game, at the same time we don't want to entirely limit reasonable game play choices so long as there are pros and cons to each decision with the possibility of each decision being counter acted in some other way to ensure overall balance in the end.

For example, some players had taken issue in the past when an Axis side would nearly bring the entirety of their air power to North Africa to aid in the conquer of Egypt and so on. While we felt that this might be a situation of win one battle but lose the war (as Barbarossa would potentially struggle as a result), we did keep the possibility open but simply made it a bit more costly to do so in the end. This keeps the what if option of such a move open to players, but likely brought the pros vs cons of such a move closer to even that what it initially would have been.

Going back to the other possibility of the French navy being used to attack the Italian navy prior to surrender, and again while unhistorical, we still feel players should have some leeway to explore different strategies and options in game. To partially address this we had recently doubled the National Morale losses and bonuses due to naval combat which can potentially accelerate French surrender from such a move if it does not go well. Now such a move is not without some potential liability either.

Hope this helps,
Hubert




Hi Hubert,

thanks for taking the time to respond.

I understand that if a game is made to be too historical is ceases to be a game and becomes a simulation of historical record.

The comments I've made here and there are obviously limited in depth and breadth of experiencing and playing the game. I know that more thought and time have gone into the production of it than what may appear to be my meager efforts to understand its workings.

Probably some of my remarks aren't new by any means. I do try to go through the forums before commenting on matters that seem head-scratching. On the other hand, not speaking about them isn't an option as without some kind of understanding as to the rationale about things, I'd move on. Getting some answers from you, some others who care and some PMs from my opponents, I begin to compile a better understanding and hopefully this will mean my remarks become more meaningful and relevant with time.

cheers Marc







< Message edited by marcdhanna -- 6/13/2019 10:19:17 AM >


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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/13/2019 9:54:03 AM   
demyansk


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Thanks for the nm answer, I know you lose nm when those ships are destroyed.

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 6/14/2019 1:21:52 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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quote:

Hi Hubert,

thanks for taking the time to respond.

I understand that if a game is made to be too historical is ceases to be a game and becomes a simulation of historical record.

The comments I've made here and there are obviously limited in depth and breadth of experiencing and playing the game. I know that more thought and time have gone into the production of it than what may appear to be my meager efforts to understand its workings.

Probably some of my remarks aren't new by any means. I do try to go through the forums before commenting on matters that seem head-scratching. On the other hand, not speaking about them isn't an option as without some kind of understanding as to the rationale about things, I'd move on. Getting some answers from you, some others who care and some PMs from my opponents, I begin to compile a better understanding and hopefully this will mean my remarks become more meaningful and relevant with time.

cheers Marc


Of course and these conversations are all good.

In fact, new comments from a fresh set of eyes helps to either reinforce what has been done, or gives us pause to possibly rethink a few things here and there to ultimately improve the game even further.

Welcome aboard

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 6/14/2019 1:22:17 PM >


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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 11/9/2019 4:10:03 PM   
Tanaka


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Maybe the percentage towards Axis for Norway should be raised even more if sitting on convoy route? Does not seem to affect anyone doing this?

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 11/9/2019 7:21:24 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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Although I don't usually use the French Navy to block Norwegian supply I don't see that strategy as an issue.

There are several remedies and alternative strategies to offset it.

One suggestion I think would improve the game is putting limitations (or NM penalties) for moving a large percentage of ships far away from its native country. Say entire Italian Navy out of Mediterranean or entire British Navy in Mediterranean. There should also be implications (increased US mobilization) for Germans blockading Canadian ports or near US coast.


quote:

ORIGINAL: demyansk

Thanks for the nm answer, I know you lose nm when those ships are destroyed.



Late response, there are NM objective locations on the map, capture one and NM goes down 10.

< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 11/9/2019 7:53:58 PM >

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RE: Norway Convoys Gang-Tackled by French Navy - 12/13/2019 6:40:42 AM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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Maybe there could be a roll for each ship like I saw in another game so each ship could join Germany or England or be sunk by England or even join Spain for a creative twist so maybe like 30% join Germany, 30% join England, 20% sunk, and 20% joins Spain. At Trafalgar, Spain and France were in a combined fleet so they do have a history of friendly naval cooperation.

As a disincentive for France to bonzai their fleet against the hapless Italian navy, the loss of NM (never mind?) for France and gain for Italy should be large so that Italy can benefit from the massive never mind bonus for the rest of the game. Also, the chance of the ships joining England is another disincentive for the allied player to throw away good French ships on gamey suicidal tactics to annoy your opponent.

< Message edited by GiveWarAchance -- 12/13/2019 6:41:16 AM >

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