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64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/10/2019 3:25:42 PM   
greenmoray1

 

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Hi.….I wondered if anyone can explain and assist/ advise in a question I have regarding games that you buy that say they are 64 bit but pop up in the game menu as 32 bit. My notebook is 64 bit for certain. Why do games come up 32 bit and other times 64 bit? When I see the pre-play window pop up to start the game it will say 32 bit but I'm sure I bought the game in 64 bit. Truth be told....now don't harp all over me...but I don't really understand what they mean ...I'm guessing resolution or memory...heck that's a guess. Can someone please explain why the 2 (64bit/32bit) come up unplanned. If I buy the 64 bit version why then does it come up 32 bit. How do you make sure your purchased games are 64 bit since that is what my system has 100% not 32 bit? I don't see any changes in the game to be honest but it's just a curiosity question that I'd like an answer to. Is there something I'm doing to make it turn to 32 bit on my 64 bit system. If I bought the game in 64bit version why does it change to 32bit and sometimes back to 64 bit? Maybe it's just simple stuff and this is a dumb question. Please clarify. Thank you.
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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/10/2019 5:02:09 PM   
wodin


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I'm not certain I ever noticed a difference.

The only thing has been some games are 64bit only. So really if you haven't yet then you're best upgrading to 64bit OS sooner rather than later. Also make sure your system can handle a 64bit OS first, again if it can't then you need to start thinking about upgrading your hardware.

As far as I know there hasn't been a game released as two separate versions.

< Message edited by wodin -- 6/10/2019 5:06:37 PM >


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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/10/2019 5:53:12 PM   
Lobster


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Back in the day computers used to operate on 8 bit, one byte, at a time. Then they went to 16 bits or 2 bytes. Then 32 bit or 4 bytes. Now 64 bits or 8 bytes. The progression will always be double of the last iteration. What this all means is the bus, or data highway, into the cpu is becoming wider so it can accommodate more traffic. Wiki: "Simply put, a 64-bit processor is more capable than a 32-bit processor, because it can handle more data at once. ... Here's the key difference: 32-bit processors are perfectly capable of handling a limited amount of RAM (in Windows, 4GB or less), and 64-bit processors are capable of utilizing much more."

If a program is written in 64bit it's designed to take advantage of that wider highway and cannot use the more narrow 32bit road. But many programs can use either highway so it's not a problem. If you have a 64bit system you can run most anything.

Edit: I'll add this from the wiki: "The internal bus, also known as internal data bus, memory bus, system bus or Front-Side-Bus, connects all the internal components of a computer, such as CPU and memory, to the motherboard. Internal data buses are also referred to as a local bus, because they are intended to connect to local devices"

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/10/2019 5:55:18 PM >


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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/10/2019 8:25:31 PM   
sanch

 

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The difference is rather simple. 32-bit systems have a hard limit of 4 GB of addressable memory, usually partitioned as 2 GB for the O/S and 2 GB for the user. 64-bit systems removes the 2 GB restriction.

Consider a game such as Skyrim (32-bit). It has all sorts of mods available. But with a 2 GB limit, those mods could easily fill up memory. But with 64-bit Skyrim you could stuff as many mods in as you wanted, and still have room as many more.

Speed trade-offs are insignificant; 64-bit executables are typically about 10% larger, but you have all that extra room in memory.

So, to me, 64-bit is a no-brainer winner.

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/10/2019 8:46:03 PM   
Lobster


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If your x86 supports PAE you can access 64gb ram with 32bit. But since he has 64bit...

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/10/2019 9:34:57 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Why would a wargame need 64-bits? What wargame parameter needs more than 2GB of resolution?

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 1:39:47 AM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Why would a wargame need 64-bits? What wargame parameter needs more than 2GB of resolution?

The advantage of 64 bit architecture is that data is addressed, moved, and processed in larger chunks; not in precision.

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 1:40:28 AM   
sanch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Why would a wargame need 64-bits? What wargame parameter needs more than 2GB of resolution?


You could quadruple (or more!) the amount of data held in memory - more units, hex features, unit history, etc. I suspect some wargames are currently constrained by data limits.

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 9:16:42 AM   
Franciscus


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One of the EU4 devs recently gave a very good explanation about this
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/eu4-development-diary-19th-of-february-2019.1153408/

Making it clear:
- why paradox is moving (finally) their major titles to 64 bits
- why it is ridiculous that presently there are still games being made and released in 32 bits

64 bit hardware and OSs have been around for almost 20 years. It’s doubtful that any PC in current home use today is not 64 bits.

Regards

< Message edited by Franciscus -- 6/11/2019 9:29:38 AM >


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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 2:02:18 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Why would a wargame need 64-bits? What wargame parameter needs more than 2GB of resolution?

The advantage of 64 bit architecture is that data is addressed, moved, and processed in larger chunks; not in precision.

I still don't see how that gets you anything unless you are working with numbers that are bigger than 32 bits. Even if it does, what calculations in wargames take more than a few seconds?

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 2:07:50 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sanch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Why would a wargame need 64-bits? What wargame parameter needs more than 2GB of resolution?


You could quadruple (or more!) the amount of data held in memory - more units, hex features, unit history, etc. I suspect some wargames are currently constrained by data limits.


My understanding is that access to the disk and ram is handled by the operating system - the game itself doesn't have to deal with it. By all means you want a 64-bit operating system.

Even if that's not true, how would you make use of the details of more than the few units that can move or fight at a given instant? Everything else is just pixels on a screen (a few Meg). How many unit histories can one read at a time?

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 2:09:02 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

One of the EU4 devs recently gave a very good explanation about this
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/eu4-development-diary-19th-of-february-2019.1153408/

Making it clear:
- why paradox is moving (finally) their major titles to 64 bits
- why it is ridiculous that presently there are still games being made and released in 32 bits

64 bit hardware and OSs have been around for almost 20 years. It’s doubtful that any PC in current home use today is not 64 bits.

Regards

Reading that, that company is into much more than wargames (if they even do wargames at all).

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 3:16:59 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

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The vast majority of memory use for any modern game is assets.

Cheers

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 4:20:31 PM   
larrybush


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Pip, I'm not really into the nuts and bolts of computers. What are assets or what are the assets?

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 5:25:17 PM   
WingCmdr

 

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That's really clear, great discussion. I just always knew bigger is better.

The thing I can't get is that if you look at the Product Spec.s page when you buy a game is it there?

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 5:43:00 PM   
Franciscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

One of the EU4 devs recently gave a very good explanation about this
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/eu4-development-diary-19th-of-february-2019.1153408/

Making it clear:
- why paradox is moving (finally) their major titles to 64 bits
- why it is ridiculous that presently there are still games being made and released in 32 bits

64 bit hardware and OSs have been around for almost 20 years. It’s doubtful that any PC in current home use today is not 64 bits.

Regards

Reading that, that company is into much more than wargames (if they even do wargames at all).


Of course. But PC war-games are PC games...

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 5:50:15 PM   
Franciscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Why would a wargame need 64-bits? What wargame parameter needs more than 2GB of resolution?


Let's put this in perspective:

ZX Spectrum was an 8 bit machine. It had great games when it was around. Even wargames (Desert Rats, for instance). When newer hardware and OS came along, 16 bit and then 32 bit, would you also ask why would a (war)game need 16 or 32 bits ?


Sooner or later 32 bit games will be considered "legacy", and probably will only run with an emulator (like old 8 bit games, that only run now with DosBox).

The forceful move by Apple to completely deprecate 32 bit applications in next MacOs (and already in iOS) will surely be a big thing in this direction. Probably not with small niche games like "our" Matrix wargames. But all the AAA Steam games will surely be 64 bits. And all iPad apps and games (a market that is infinitely bigger than PC gaming) are already only 64 bits.


< Message edited by Franciscus -- 6/11/2019 6:12:30 PM >


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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 5:53:05 PM   
Franciscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WingCmdr

That's really clear, great discussion. I just always knew bigger is better.

The thing I can't get is that if you look at the Product Spec.s page when you buy a game is it there?



Currently no, with exceptions. For example, Mare Nostrum from Matrix is already a 64 bit game and that is stated in the product specs. For the rest, if nothing is stated, one should assume they are still 32 bits.

Foi Windows, this is still irrelevant, as Microsoft has still maintained 32 bit compatibility as a legacy (probably bloating and overloading Windows). But sooner or later this is surely going to change...

The main limitation of 32 bit software is that it can only use 4 Gb (see 2 Gb) of RAM. Even if your PC has 8 or 16 Gb of RAM, it is not used by a 32 bit application. A 64 bit application can theoretically use 16 Exabytes


Regards

< Message edited by Franciscus -- 6/11/2019 5:56:06 PM >


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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 7:51:50 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Why would a wargame need 64-bits? What wargame parameter needs more than 2GB of resolution?


Let's put this in perspective:

ZX Spectrum was an 8 bit machine. It had great games when it was around. Even wargames (Desert Rats, for instance). When newer hardware and OS came along, 16 bit and then 32 bit, would you also ask why would a (war)game need 16 or 32 bits ?


8 bits = +/-128. 16 bits = +/-32K. One can certainly imagine a need for numbers higher than those in a wargame. But higher than 2G? Why?

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 7:55:58 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larrybush

Pip, I'm not really into the nuts and bolts of computers. What are assets or what are the assets?

Graphics, sound, text, music, voice, etc.

Cheers

Pip

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 8:55:20 PM   
balto

 

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The super mega awesome HOI 4 was recently converted to 64bit. Lots of discussion on that under the HOI 4 forum. I cannot tell the difference because it ran great when it was 32 bit and I have a mack daddy rig. But what I do know based on my extensive knowledge of porno is that bigger is better, so always go with 64 bit. And if 128 bit comes out.., well.., guess what is better (read prior sentence on porno).

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/11/2019 9:35:39 PM   
larrybush


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine


quote:

ORIGINAL: larrybush

Pip, I'm not really into the nuts and bolts of computers. What are assets or what are the assets?

Graphics, sound, text, music, voice, etc.

Cheers

Pip


Thank you

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/12/2019 2:01:53 AM   
KurtC


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It goes to 65 on my computer.

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/12/2019 2:43:33 AM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Why would a wargame need 64-bits? What wargame parameter needs more than 2GB of resolution?


Let's put this in perspective:

ZX Spectrum was an 8 bit machine. It had great games when it was around. Even wargames (Desert Rats, for instance). When newer hardware and OS came along, 16 bit and then 32 bit, would you also ask why would a (war)game need 16 or 32 bits ?


8 bits = +/-128. 16 bits = +/-32K. One can certainly imagine a need for numbers higher than those in a wargame. But higher than 2G? Why?

These are addresses in memory where data or executable code resides. Start Task Manager on your computer and look at all the processes that are running.

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/12/2019 2:44:47 AM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KurtC

It goes to 65 on my computer.






Attachment (1)

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/12/2019 2:49:50 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Why would a wargame need 64-bits? What wargame parameter needs more than 2GB of resolution?


Let's put this in perspective:

ZX Spectrum was an 8 bit machine. It had great games when it was around. Even wargames (Desert Rats, for instance). When newer hardware and OS came along, 16 bit and then 32 bit, would you also ask why would a (war)game need 16 or 32 bits ?


8 bits = +/-128. 16 bits = +/-32K. One can certainly imagine a need for numbers higher than those in a wargame. But higher than 2G? Why?

These are addresses in memory where data or executable code resides. Start Task Manager on your computer and look at all the processes that are running.

Again, that's handled by the operating system. Certainly the OS needs to be 64 bits. But why does a wargame?

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/12/2019 3:23:22 AM   
WingCmdr

 

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So what does WITP use Zorch?

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/12/2019 4:21:31 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Why would a wargame need 64-bits? What wargame parameter needs more than 2GB of resolution?


Let's put this in perspective:

ZX Spectrum was an 8 bit machine. It had great games when it was around. Even wargames (Desert Rats, for instance). When newer hardware and OS came along, 16 bit and then 32 bit, would you also ask why would a (war)game need 16 or 32 bits ?


8 bits = +/-128. 16 bits = +/-32K. One can certainly imagine a need for numbers higher than those in a wargame. But higher than 2G? Why?

These are addresses in memory where data or executable code resides. Start Task Manager on your computer and look at all the processes that are running.

Again, that's handled by the operating system. Certainly the OS needs to be 64 bits. But why does a wargame?


Ask the guys that made these games:

Hell Let Loose
Steel Division II
Victory at Sea: Pacific
Unity of Command II
Post Scriptum
Army General
Tank Warfare: Tunisia 1943

There are lots more than this. The current Battlefront games don't require it but they suggest something more than 4gb ram so that would be 64bit for most people unless they know how to run over 4gb ram on their 32bit set up.

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Post #: 28
RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/12/2019 10:20:19 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

There are lots more than this. The current Battlefront games don't require it but they suggest something more than 4gb ram so that would be 64bit for most people unless they know how to run over 4gb ram on their 32bit set up.


TOAW IV is 32 bits. Yet it can access everything on my 700GB hard drive. Clearly, the OS interfaces the game to the hard drive so that the game doesn't have to deal with those details. I expect the ram can work similarly. I've got 6GB of ram.

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RE: 64 bit games or 32 bit...what gives? - 6/12/2019 3:01:31 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Let's put this in perspective:

ZX Spectrum was an 8 bit machine. It had great games when it was around. Even wargames (Desert Rats, for instance). When newer hardware and OS came along, 16 bit and then 32 bit, would you also ask why would a (war)game need 16 or 32 bits ?

Most common ZX Spectrum also has only some 48 kilobytes of RAM. That isn't much to work with, and it showed in the games. Another 8-bit computer, Commodore 64, has 64 kilobytes of RAM, which made it possible to make more detailed (more colourful) games. Spectrum games had to have less colours and less sound in order to fit into the RAM. There are other differences with the hardware, but even if video and audio components would have been closer to equal, # of RAM would still have been limiting factor for Spectrum. Commodore 128 (also 8-bit computer) has whopping 128 kilobytes of RAM. How much more audio, maps, and units that would have meant for war games!!? Its problem is compatibility with Commodore 64, and therefore it didn't get many dedicated games because game developers unanimously decided 128 owners can just play 64's games.

[edit]
Anyway bit # isn't be all, end all. There are many more considerations.

< Message edited by Kuokkanen -- 6/12/2019 3:03:39 PM >


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