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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always a winner

 
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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 9:44:48 AM   
Red2112


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I think Frank Hunters games have the right balance of complicated ease of use. Another one not mentioned alot here is Combat Command (2) The Matrix Edition. There are other mid games that I enjoy but wont mention because it´s all based on personal taste/needs, but what I will add from my own, is that one is not always in the mood, and/or has time to get into a complicated game.

As someone stated here in another similar topic thread, time is a big factor now day´s, we even rush to have fun! But not eveyone is the same or lives the same, so we should be happy we can choose.

There´s bigger issues, like unfinished games, or with game breaking bugs, and over priced price tags that we should complain about, and by this I mean in general. So having the right to choose, and having what to choose is all good with me. But yeah I hear ya Mrs. Wargamer, and don´t worry, some can´t stand a proper based oppinion

Good care...

Red

spelling...

< Message edited by Red2112 -- 6/9/2019 11:42:32 AM >


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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 10:05:12 AM   
demyansk


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Good posts, I just started an easy game that I love, Panzer Korps, I love this game. I was trying to get into the AGeod games, but so far, nothing g going on. Maybe play Battlefield 5 later

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Post #: 32
RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 10:22:22 AM   
zakblood


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balance and scale depends on your skill level and lack of time or amount of time you have at any given moment, for me i play little now days, but test a lot, so i'm quite at home testing WITE2, but also feel fine on doing all of Yobowargames and a few other indy dev's testing, i'm more than happy to play a board type war game, or a year long game which takes all week to do one week of turns, each have there own merits and both have some advantages /disadvantages as well.

so what ever you enjoy, that's fine in my eyes

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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 12:41:19 PM   
AndySfromVA

 

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I admire complicated wargames but I've always had trouble sticking with them. The one exception is TOAW, especially in its latest iteration.

Like all of us I'm always looking for that perfect wargame, but in the meantime I'll settle for Panzer Corps 2!

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Post #: 34
RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 1:28:01 PM   
zakblood


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regarding perfect, isn't that always the one next which isn't out?

as speaking from a testers point of view, wish lists and perfection don't go well with developers, unless you wish for it to be in development for ever and a day, and never get released, some times you have to step back, take a long hard look and just except things how they are now, and not dream of everything you wish to alter, amend and put into a game, or it never see's the light of day.

to think how far games have come, cardboard from tin soldiers or even hand carved from wood then painted even, to a pc, in my life time, so the next few years can only get better, with a odd few games going backwards in some eyes or static in others

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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 1:49:54 PM   
Ranger33

 

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While I love complex games and have purchased more than a few monsters, I appreciate the smaller games simply because I can have a full experience in a shorter amount of time. My daily free time is usually limited, and I’m usually tired (between work and kids), and so there’s rarely a time when firing up a monster like WitE sounds like a good idea. It certainly has a strong appeal, but then I look at the clock and it’s already 10:30PM and it would be bedtime before I could even review the rules...and firing up a simpler game just makes more sense.

I still buy those games from time to time, telling myself that I’ll have time to play them...someday. Hopefully my eyesight holds up well into the retirement years!

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Post #: 36
RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 2:02:21 PM   
zakblood


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i've bee retired 20 years, said when i first retired, i was going to spend every day on a different book and each night on a different game, other half had different idea's, so every day she finds me jobs, so i can enjoy myself doing them and not getting bored?

and then every night i can sit and watch the junk she watches? nope, that didn't happen either.

but on the book part, i'm slowly getting down a long list which keeps growing of books i need to read, but games, i think i have more now not played than i did 20 years ago, so that didn't work out so well either, but one day maybe i'll start some, been that long mind you for some of them, might be an issue to even get them to work now days

life is meant to be simple, retire means enjoy, and while i do enjoy not working, not quite ended up how i thought it was going to be, then again plans and dreams, tend to by like that, but can't complain, keep waking up each morning, so another bonus

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Post #: 37
RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 2:41:55 PM   
Zovs


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In board war gaming you had the classic 60s style (albeit simply and somewhat boring) games such as Afrika Korps, D-Day, Battle of the Bulge, Waterloo and Chancellorville.

Then something wonderful happened in 1969, SPI was born and during the 70s thanks to JFD you got Panzerblitz, Normandy, Barbarossa, Bastogne, Borodino, Austerlitz, Breakout & Pursuit, Bull Run, France 1940, 1812 and War In The East (1st edition 1974).

These all led to all the Quad games (Napoleon at War, North Africa, West Wall, AGS and Modern Battles, plus the Blue and Gray) and then to the “monsters”: War in Europe, War in the Pacific, Campaign for North Africa, Atlantic Wall, Terrible Swift Sword and Wellington’s Victory. Not to mention all the modern war concepts like The East is Red, The Next War, Oil War and so many other titles. Red Star/White Star, Mech War 77, Mech War 2, Air War, etc.

The 70s was the golden age of board war games, with companies like GDW producing The Europa Series, and the Third World War Series along with the Assault Series. It also saw the revival of AH which finally produced some good games like Anzio, The Longest Day and Squad Leader.

The 80s-90s saw some more improvements with The Gamers OCS and SCS series, both of which were more complex and enjoyable then the old Classics of Year’s gone by.

So the point is, most war gamers are hard core, have many tastes and want many games usually more complex or intricate then before.

So I don’t agree with your arguments.


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Post #: 38
RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 4:36:37 PM   
Chickenboy


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Alas, MrsWargamer, I couldn't disagree more with your opinion. For myself, I relish War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition. It, and its predecessors, have been on my hard drive for 17 years.

Those other games you cite? Mere baubles of gaming. I can't imagine dropping $40 for something that provides me with mere days of gaming pleasure. I paid $80-$100 (I forget exactly) for WITP:AE 10 years ago. I still play it daily. In terms of $/hour of gaming, it's fractions of pennies.

To each their own. I hope the designers are listening out there to those that hunger for realism, inclusiveness, depth AND breadth in their games.

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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 5:35:16 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
The thing is, Gary's War in the East is the entire Russian Front start to finish to a point. How many times though, does the market need that sort of product. Gary essentially eliminated much of any reason to try.

Meanwhile, the Russian front is just a massive sum of potential important battles.
I think there's lots of room for a lot of lesser complexity product.

I much prefer complex wargames and generally won't touch simple games.

That said, complexity for it's own sake is also a huge turn off. I haven't played WitE in years, not because it was too complex, but because the combat model was a black box that produced strange results, and because the "Eastern Front" produced by the game did not bear even a passing resemblance to my understanding of the real thing (think carpets of entrenched Soviet troops extending back several hexes...).

Actually I think that the Eastern Front from 1941-1945 is very difficult, if not impossible, to model in a game, because it will virtually never resemble the real thing. Between the many unique factors and the fact that both sides made huge mistakes which can generally avoided by players with the advantage of hindsight, without a bunch of very restrictive rules, the Eastern Front will simply look different in most games.

I also don't care for WiF, not because it is too complex, but because I don't like its air/land/sea play mechanics (or the fact that the Europe=only scenarios, which I wanted, were AFAIK, never finished...).

That's why my favorite East Front games are the Panzer Campaigns series which are very large, but not especially complex, and which focus on the operational rather than strategic level.

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Post #: 40
RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 6:04:23 PM   
larrybush


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I like the monster games and the smaller games. I just like historical wargaming though.
I am somewhat critical of the monster games that are overly complex and overly time consuming. I own all the monster games from Gary, through Matrix Games. I've played them but they are a bit over-complicated.

Avalon Hill's longest day was 8 pages of rules, easy to play and gave a good 'feel' of the campaign, that's the style of monster game I enjoy most. Simple, elegant, fun to play and reasonably quick.

Simple mechanics that has the right feel for what it is simulating beats overly complex games every time (for me).
Too bad there is not more of them for the computer.

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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 6:37:23 PM   
Infierno


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I much prefer complex wargames and generally won't touch simple games.

That said, complexity for it's own sake is also a huge turn off. I haven't played WitE in years, not because it was too complex, but because the combat model was a black box that produced strange results, and because the "Eastern Front" produced by the game did not bear even a passing resemblance to my understanding of the real thing (think carpets of entrenched Soviet troops extending back several hexes...).

Actually I think that the Eastern Front from 1941-1945 is very difficult, if not impossible, to model in a game, because it will virtually never resemble the real thing. Between the many unique factors and the fact that both sides made huge mistakes which can generally avoided by players with the advantage of hindsight, without a bunch of very restrictive rules, the Eastern Front will simply look different in most games.

I also don't care for WiF, not because it is too complex, but because I don't like its air/land/sea play mechanics (or the fact that the Europe=only scenarios, which I wanted, were AFAIK, never finished...).

That's why my favorite East Front games are the Panzer Campaigns series which are very large, but not especially complex, and which focus on the operational rather than strategic level.



Very well said.

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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 7:12:17 PM   
MrsWargamer


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Thanks for getting back to expressing some good opinions.

Remember guys, I HAVE these monster games :) Some times, I'm actually in your camp with detail, some days not :)
Thrill of being a woman. Today I'm siding more with the complex leaning crowd, yesterday, I was all about KISS.
Tomorrow, I might go full bore rack em up and play something big.

Man, I wish I had a nice big house with a spare room at least 15 feet on a side, something I could put a 4x8 table in, with a locked door, so no one could stupidly enter, open a window on a breezy day and bugger 2 months of hardcore gaming. It would be a shame to have to kill my spouse, they're so hard to find :). Trophy husbands, men who understand a wargaming wife's needs :)

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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 7:13:22 PM   
larrybush


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
The thing is, Gary's War in the East is the entire Russian Front start to finish to a point. How many times though, does the market need that sort of product. Gary essentially eliminated much of any reason to try.

Meanwhile, the Russian front is just a massive sum of potential important battles.
I think there's lots of room for a lot of lesser complexity product.

I much prefer complex wargames and generally won't touch simple games.

That said, complexity for it's own sake is also a huge turn off. I haven't played WitE in years, not because it was too complex, but because the combat model was a black box that produced strange results, and because the "Eastern Front" produced by the game did not bear even a passing resemblance to my understanding of the real thing (think carpets of entrenched Soviet troops extending back several hexes...).

Actually I think that the Eastern Front from 1941-1945 is very difficult, if not impossible, to model in a game, because it will virtually never resemble the real thing. Between the many unique factors and the fact that both sides made huge mistakes which can generally avoided by players with the advantage of hindsight, without a bunch of very restrictive rules, the Eastern Front will simply look different in most games.

I also don't care for WiF, not because it is too complex, but because I don't like its air/land/sea play mechanics (or the fact that the Europe=only scenarios, which I wanted, were AFAIK, never finished...).

That's why my favorite East Front games are the Panzer Campaigns series which are very large, but not especially complex, and which focus on the operational rather than strategic level.



Yes, I remember my reaction when I saw the apparent carpet of Soviet units extending back to Moscow (from Smolensk). Did not resemble anything I remember either. And I have a reasonably good library on the subject.

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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/9/2019 7:28:09 PM   
zakblood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Thanks for getting back to expressing some good opinions.

Remember guys, I HAVE these monster games :) Some times, I'm actually in your camp with detail, some days not :)
Thrill of being a woman. Today I'm siding more with the complex leaning crowd, yesterday, I was all about KISS.
Tomorrow, I might go full bore rack em up and play something big.

Man, I wish I had a nice big house with a spare room at least 15 feet on a side, something I could put a 4x8 table in, with a locked door, so no one could stupidly enter, open a window on a breezy day and bugger 2 months of hardcore gaming. It would be a shame to have to kill my spouse, they're so hard to find :). Trophy husbands, men who understand a wargaming wife's needs :)


sorry my partners fine, understand my mans cave as she has her sowing and crochet rooms and then taken over the summer house and does clay work, so my man caves is mostly my own space, pc wise as long as i keep the printer filled and the pc working, both, eg laptop and desktop with her patterns on, i'm free to play as i please, which is next to none now days, as she doesn't think testing and writing notes is playing, so she has no idea on plans for dungeons needing drawing out, then again she only also plays mostly FB games, but did beat me once one of my games, which i needed help progressing in, so shows my level of skill right out of the blue, not saying she beat me either, i got hammered on her first try lol

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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/10/2019 11:45:21 AM   
wodin


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I'm all for choice. Just winds me up when someone starts asking for all games released to suit their needs only.

You'd think I was a monster game only man. Far from it. Take Command, I tried but just found it beyond me. However it makes me happy a war game like that is out there. Same with GG games, I love reading about them but just can't play them!

Game like Dc Barbarossa is my limit. Though I love it WW1 Gold is pushing the boundaries for me.

So even though I don't play these big games I'm happy we have them around.


I am waiting though for a monster tactical game...anyone

As for casual games they do the least for me. I don't like to much abstraction. I also dislike the rock, paper scissors mechanic. So Panze r Korps and the like is not on my shopping list. Again though it's good they are out there. Though I think we've seen enough of the PK type games for now. I did like Battle Academy that was fun. Another mechanic I don't like is puzzle type games, where you have to work out the exact way to win. I enjoyed Heroes of Normandy but the smaller scenarios felt like a puzzle than a wargame.

What we should be asking for is quality no matter the size of game. Looks good, plays good and well priced. Also a monster tactical war game that finally has all the mechanics to do it right. So individual soldiers monitored, multi level buildings, good ballistic and damage model, infantry not cannon fodder, realistic tactics pay off, great tacai, street fighting mechanics, WEGO, comms model, rpg elements, individual soldier stats\skills, combined arms, obstacles\bunkers, trench system etc, engineers, air drops, weather conditions including ground mist etc, logistics, sewer system, tree bursts, macro commands (so you can give a whole group of squads an order to move then assault area the soldiers will then move up, the HMG units will move to positions to give suppression and covering fire, a small reserve be kept back then the rest attack maybe from different directions using bounding fire, the HMG suppressing area being attacked. That is what I'd love to see, obviously the player good do it all at a micro level if they wished. To see the AI do that would be a joy.

< Message edited by wodin -- 6/10/2019 12:16:33 PM >


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Post #: 46
RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/10/2019 1:39:29 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
As for casual games they do the least for me. I don't like to much abstraction. I also dislike the rock, paper scissors mechanic...Another mechanic I don't like is puzzle type games, where you have to work out the exact way to win.

Hear, hear, my thoughts exactly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodinAlso a monster tactical war game that finally has all the mechanics to do it right.

The last game that ticked this box for me was CMBB...maybe Steel Tigers will fill the gap, or the WWII versions of the Campaign Series, although they are platoon-level rather than squad/vehicle.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 6/10/2019 1:40:10 PM >

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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/10/2019 2:06:31 PM   
wodin


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76mms

I found the Squad Battles series was close.

I too await the next Steel Panthers

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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/10/2019 2:50:05 PM   
larrybush


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I too am waiting for steel Panthers, I hope it is as great a classic as the original!

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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/10/2019 4:04:30 PM   
MrsWargamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

76mms

I found the Squad Battles series was close.

I too await the next Steel Panthers


I have several of the Squad Battles series. Like Panzer Campaigns, sometimes the interface drives me off. Granted, once you master the interface, it is game to game usually the same for all.

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Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

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Post #: 50
RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/10/2019 4:30:15 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

That's why my favorite East Front games are the Panzer Campaigns series which are very large, but not especially complex, and which focus on the operational rather than strategic level.


Did you try their Strategic War series? I did not but wonder if this is good.
http://www.johntillersoftware.com/StrategicWar.html

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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/10/2019 5:49:57 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
I found the Squad Battles series was close.

Never tried those; I've looked, but there was something which put me off them...lack of multistory buildings, or lack of an editor, or something else that was a deal-breaker for me...

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Post #: 52
RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/10/2019 5:54:25 PM   
wodin


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I think it's great we have a choice. For someone to call out for one particular type of wargame to no longer be developed because they don't like them I find rather selfish.

One person's meat is another person's poison.

Seems we live in a time where it's all about me,me,me.


We should be celebrating the fact we have these clever folk developing wargames for us to enjoy.



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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/10/2019 5:59:00 PM   
wodin


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Lack of multi story annoying.

However it does a lot right other tactical games don't do.

PBEM over at Blitz community brings the best out of them.

I wish the source code had been given over as it's only a couple of features \mechanics from being perfect

Covers lots of Wars though doesn't do well post Vietnam.

If you're a tactical gamer I feel they are a must play at some point.


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
I found the Squad Battles series was close.

Never tried those; I've looked, but there was something which put me off them...lack of multistory buildings, or lack of an editor, or something else that was a deal-breaker for me...



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Post #: 54
RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/10/2019 6:05:56 PM   
MrsWargamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I think it's great we have a choice. For someone to call out for one particular type of wargame to no longer be developed because they don't like them I find rather selfish.

One person's meat is another person's poison.

Seems we live in a time where it's all about me,me,me.


We should be celebrating the fact we have these clever folk developing wargames for us to enjoy.




:) your eyes are getting old dear.

NO one has advocated NOT making anything.
I HAVE advocated a desire for more of something.

It's like people claiming 'drama' hehe, there's no drama here. But some of the reading comprehension might be failing. Perhaps you just need to go to bed :)

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 55
RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/10/2019 6:48:02 PM   
wodin


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Most likely.

Sorry if I misread.

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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/11/2019 12:46:20 PM   
altipueri

 

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Has anybody actually finished War In The Pacific - Admirals Edition ?


I bought it just so I could talk in a deep voice about having the world's biggest wargame but never played it. Once I saw there were over 4,000 pieces to give instructions to for just the first move my heart sank.

Well actually I had a little go at the Attu/Kiska scenario.


I'm down to about two or three hours as my game limit now.

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Post #: 57
RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/11/2019 1:30:35 PM   
larrybush


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quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Has anybody actually finished War In The Pacific - Admirals Edition ?


I bought it just so I could talk in a deep voice about having the world's biggest wargame but never played it. Once I saw there were over 4,000 pieces to give instructions to for just the first move my heart sank.

Well actually I had a little go at the Attu/Kiska scenario.


I'm down to about two or three hours as my game limit now.


Played the first iteration until late 1943 with a friend. That took a long time! Admirals Edition is a much better game, fewer exploits in the code, although it still requires some house rules. Never played that with a human opponent though, too big a time sink. Funny though it's still my favorite digital wargame even if it is somewhat too big.

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RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/16/2019 1:40:42 PM   
tdavie

 

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MrsWargamer;a couple of times you mention that wargames are games and should not be work. Permit me to tack the opposite position; I want to be able to study, to read, to pour over maps and to sweat the small details. A lifetime's worth of being a lab tech did that to me. If a game doesn't have a learning, it won't hold my interest for very long.

Work can be (and was) fun when I wasn't euthanizing animals. It was thrilling when the gas chromatographs worked perfecttly - and yes, fun. It was fun when benchtop chemistry worked. Etc.

In other words there is no split between work and fun for me. Not always; ut they can be one and the same.

So, big, complex and detailed (but elegant) games are what appeal to me.

Tom

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 59
RE: Big and complicated and super detailed isn't always... - 6/16/2019 2:11:46 PM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5234
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline
4 times here. WITP-AE has been played to conclusion many times, I've played till Apr '46.

* all PBEM

< Message edited by zuluhour -- 6/16/2019 2:12:00 PM >

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 60
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