Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

USN Destroyers

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> USN Destroyers Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
USN Destroyers - 5/29/2019 1:16:44 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 17349
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
Lots and lots of classes, so ultimately several posts and less graphics. Sorry.


Here are the leftovers from WW1...shortish range & weak guns, but the Clemson can upgrade into many variants. The APD is useful for fast transport, 180 troop capacity. The DE gives a potent early ASW plaftform. However, Allied eventually gets plentiful ASW and I think the APD is the better long term bang for the buck. I am not sure the Allies need the minesweeping of the AVD versions. YMMV.

Please note there is a 60% Dud rate on those torpedoes at game start. Jan of 43 they drop by 20% and September of 43 drop to 10%.






Interesting story about the Ward and her Captain...
December 7, 1941
Early in the morning of December 7, 1941, the Ward, while on patrol near the entrance to Pearl Harbor, was alerted by the cargo ship Antares (AG-10) to the presence of a Japanese midget submarine attempting to infiltrate into the harbor entrance. The Ward opened fire with her number three deck gun, then dropped depth charges, and sank the submarine. Outerbridge's radio reports were discounted by senior officers at naval headquarters despite his efforts to emphasize that there could be no mistake, sending a second report with more explicit detail: "We have attacked, fired upon, and dropped depth charges upon submarine operating in defensive sea area." This happened just 70 minutes before the Japanese naval air forces commenced their attacks on Pearl Harbor. The action by the Ward's crew was thus the first naval action by U.S. forces in World War II, and the gun that fired the first shot was installed as a memorial at the Minnesota State Capitol in Saint Paul, Minnesota. The midget submarine the Ward sank that morning was finally located in August 2002 in 1,300 feet (400 m) of water just outside Pearl Harbor.[5]

For this action Outerbridge was subsequently awarded the Navy Cross.[6]

World War II
From 1942 Outerbridge worked at the Office of the Chief of Naval Transportation in Washington, D.C.,[2] before being given command of the destroyer O'Brien (DD-725) in June 1944.[7]

On D-Day the O'Brien stood off the coast of Normandy, and helped protect Allied forces landing on the beaches, by using her guns to attack German defenses near the landing zones. Later the O'Brien performed a similar action off the French port of Cherbourg as Allied ground forces captured the city.[8]

Outerbridge and the O'Brien were then reassigned to the Pacific Fleet to participate in the liberation of the Philippines. In a strange twist of fate, on December 7, 1944, during the landings at Leyte Gulf, Outerbridge was ordered to use the O'Brien's deck guns to sink the Ward, which had been severely damaged in a Japanese kamikaze attack.[8]


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/30/2019 2:04:46 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/29/2019 1:16:57 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 17349
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
The Porter and then the Somers were big, 1850 ton, destroyers designed to counter Japan's large destroyers and be flotilla leaders. They have great guns that are very accurate, and eventually down the upgrade path get the Mark 37 fire control guns that Fletchers have and also can lose their torpedo mounts in favor of more AA. They also lose a gun mount too.

It is interesting to note that the original 5" guns were anti surface only, and in the game they are listed in the naval guns section of Tracker despite being shown as AA capable in the graphic. I wonder if this was a game balancing decision or simple oversight or perhaps their original guns don't fire on planes (but it sure looks like they do from the graphic). Something isn't kosher, there.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/29/2019 7:27:46 PM >

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 2
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/29/2019 1:17:11 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 17349
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
The sluggers! These are great surface combatants. The Fletchers were designed to overcome dissatisfaction of the Porter/Mahan class of flotilla leaders while the Sumner class was an improvement on the Fletcher (added dual rudders to improve on ASW and more) while the Gearing was a lengthened Sumner. There is still a handful of Gearings around, and I think one was still in active duty till 2014 (the others are in mothballs are are museum ships).

AA improves with upgrades, and there is even an AA variant for them.

Put four of these ships in a surface action group with low threat, and they can take on anything in the IJN! At flank speed they have incredible reach, and can easily be LRCAP'd with some long legged fighters. They are big enough to clear mines the old fashioned way and not sink and small enough to repair damage quickly. They can take at least 2 hits from most kamikazes, but they are incredibly difficult to hit.

Fletchers have the best deck armor, and can bounce IJN destroyer rounds very easily.

Japan really has no counters to these ships. Maybe cruisers, but Japan usually doesn't have enough of them. I have had good luck with the Lilly IIb divebomber (100kg sap x2) as it has the range to hit them while they are getting in position for a raid. Jills can work too. Most other planes lack the range or are required for other duties.

These destroyers are good at everything, but I think they are best used as raiders darting in and out.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/30/2019 12:20:38 PM >

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 3
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/29/2019 1:56:25 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 13677
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
Only 60% torp duds for DD torps? I thought it was the same as sub-launched torps - 80%?

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 4
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/29/2019 2:38:21 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 17349
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
Absolutely.








Attachment (1)

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 5
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/29/2019 5:45:24 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 17567
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
Status: offline
If the dud rate improvements are the same as for sub torpedoes, on Jan 1, 1943 the dud rate should drop BY %20, then drop TO %10 in Sept (end of the month?) of '43. So the rates for the DD fish would be %60, %40, %10.

< Message edited by USSAmerica -- 5/29/2019 5:46:14 PM >


_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 6
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/29/2019 6:38:17 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 17349
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
6.4.2.1 NOTE ON TORPEDO DUDS
In January 1943, all torpedoes with a dud rate of greater than 49 have their dud rates reduced
by 20. In September 1943, all torpedoes with an adjusted dud rate greater than 20 have their
dud rates lowered to 10. Allied torpedoes were notoriously inefficient in the early stages of the
Pacific War, and this rule reflects their slow but steady improvement over the years.
Note: if the Realism option “Reliable USN Torpedoes” (see
section 2.4.7) is selected, this rule does not apply – no
torpedoes will have dud rates higher than 10%

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/29/2019 6:42:16 PM >

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 7
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/29/2019 7:12:00 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 13677
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
Thanks for the replies guys! I find it hard to memorize all that stuff because I get to use torps so rarely (except for sub-launched ones).

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 8
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/29/2019 10:46:46 PM   
US87891

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 1/2/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
It is interesting to note that the original 5" guns were anti surface only, and in the game they are listed in the naval guns section of Tracker despite being shown as AA capable in the graphic. I wonder if this was a game balancing decision or simple oversight or perhaps their original guns don't fire on planes (but it sure looks like they do from the graphic). Something isn't kosher, there.

Hello Lowpe.

The 5in/38 Mk12 SP EBR is a ‘Naval” Gun, Device Type 18, Slot 1627.
The are, in order:
5in/38 Mk12 OP – open pedestal, type 17 (dual purpose) slot 1622
5in/38 Mk12 OP(S) – open pedestal, single, type 17 (dual purpose) slot 1623
5in/38 Mk12 EBR – enclosed base ring, type 17 (dual purpose) slot 1624 (twin turret, BB, CA, CV, etc))
5in/38 Mk12 SEBR – enclosed base ring, single, type 17 (dual purpose) slot 1625 (single turret)
5in/38 Mk12 OBR – open base ring, type 17 (dual purpose) slot 1626 (unshielded turret type, Benson Gleaves mounts 3 & 4, etc)
5in/38 Mk12 SP EBR – single purpose enclosed base ring, type 18 (naval), slot 1627

Porter and Somers had the Mk 22 Mod 0, twin EBR mount. Very light; ~34,000 kg vs ~43,000 to 53,000 kg for the Mk 38 and Mk 32 mounts, respectively, on the Sumner/Gearing DDs and CV/CA/CLs, again respectively.

Elevation: -15/+85 degrees, Twin Mounts Mk 28, Mk 29, Mk 32, Mk 38 (all except Mk 22)
Elevation: -10/+35 degrees, Twin Mount Mk 22

Elevation Rate: 15 degrees per second, Mk 28, 29, 32, 38
Elevation Rate: 11.5 degrees per second, Mk 22

Train Rate: 25 degrees per second, Mk 28, 29, 32, 38
Train Rate: 14.7 degrees per second, Mk 22

The Mk 22 was an excellent naval mount. Its lower mass (moment of inertia) combined with adapted gun trunion placement, allowed for the greater slew rate horizontally, and vertically, given the same actuator motor HP.

Should be noted that the Porter/Somers series were the only vessels that got these mounts. Not sure what your tracker thing is showing, but the database has them tagged and typed as described, above. Matt

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 9
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/30/2019 11:18:27 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 17349
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
So, does the SP EBR shoot at airplanes in the game? In tracker it is listed as a naval gun which means that it doesn't. However, in the graphic it has an asterisk, which means it does, and also the AA rating is 320 which means it must since the 1.1 AA guns and 50 calibers can't add nearly that much AA by themselves.

My understanding is that the SP EBR in reality had no AA ability.

(in reply to US87891)
Post #: 10
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/30/2019 1:45:21 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4953
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline
I'm still trying to figure out what a "Desteroyer" is




_____________________________

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 11
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/30/2019 1:49:04 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2418
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline
AFAIK, the Porter's having DP capability in game is a balance decision.

Some of the IJN DD's have main guns with DP capability. Using these IJN guns in the anti-aircraft role was possible in theory but very difficult in reality.

The Porter's seems to follow this logic.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 12
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/30/2019 4:09:50 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24186
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

I'm still trying to figure out what a "Desteroyer" is




They are made of aluminium.

_____________________________


(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 13
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/30/2019 4:29:39 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 3488
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline
early war APDs are best, the most useful small ship for the Allies

at this stage of the war, you want to avoid surface engagements (except surprise ambushes of amphibious TFs)

but you still want to raid, or quickly move small LCUs from place to place; and of course you lack the early war amph bonus or the specialized tools that would come back much later


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 14
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/30/2019 6:45:10 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 5691
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

So, does the SP EBR shoot at airplanes in the game? In tracker it is listed as a naval gun which means that it doesn't. However, in the graphic it has an asterisk, which means it does, and also the AA rating is 320 which means it must since the 1.1 AA guns and 50 calibers can't add nearly that much AA by themselves.

My understanding is that the SP EBR in reality had no AA ability.


The game classifies the 5in/38 Mk12 SP EBR (Device #1627) as a type 17 weapon. It is therefore a DP gun.

Alfred

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 15
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/30/2019 6:51:56 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 17567
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
Status: offline
Is everyone talking about the same scenario/mod here when describing the 5in/38 Mk12 SP EBR? I see one reference to it as a type 17 weapon, and one to it as a type 18 weapon in the same Device slot, #1627.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 16
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/30/2019 7:00:11 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 5691
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
It is a type 17 weapon in scenario 1.

Alfred

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 17
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/30/2019 10:31:48 PM   
US87891

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 1/2/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica
Is everyone talking about the same scenario/mod here when describing the 5in/38 Mk12 SP EBR? I see one reference to it as a type 17 weapon, and one to it as a type 18 weapon in the same Device slot, #1627.

Woops, yeah, I was thinking in terms of Babes. I know they pulled a lot of Babes database stuff over for the last official update and thought they got the 5in/38 stuff, too. Sorry about that.

If it is a DP gun (type 17) it really should be changed to a type 18. AA gun with 35 degree elevation? Hmmmm

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 18
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/30/2019 10:37:55 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 17349
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: US87891


quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica
Is everyone talking about the same scenario/mod here when describing the 5in/38 Mk12 SP EBR? I see one reference to it as a type 17 weapon, and one to it as a type 18 weapon in the same Device slot, #1627.

Woops, yeah, I was thinking in terms of Babes. I know they pulled a lot of Babes database stuff over for the last official update and thought they got the 5in/38 stuff, too. Sorry about that.

If it is a DP gun (type 17) it really should be changed to a type 18. AA gun with 35 degree elevation? Hmmmm



Its a game, it doesn't have to be 100% accurate.

(in reply to US87891)
Post #: 19
RE: USN Desteroyers - 5/31/2019 11:34:00 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2418
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

Fletchers have the best deck armor, and can bounce IJN destroyer rounds very easily.


The Fletchers and Gearings are the only DD's in the game that get either belt or deck armour.

In my experience it makes a big difference in close range engagements. DD's without armour can get chewed up by automatic AA weapons, but the Fletcher (and Gearings to a much lesser extent) are immune.

More specifically, the IJN 25mm Type 96 AA gun has a pen value of 15, less than the Fletcher's belt armour value of 18.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 20
RE: USN Destroyers - 6/4/2019 11:52:27 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 17349
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
The 1500 ton USN Destroyers...they upgrade to decent ASW platforms, pretty much utilitarian destroyers. Not great, some have exceptional endurance. In SAG, I like the DD that have dual torpedo mounts and with low threat skirmishing...but for the most part these are 1942-43 destroyers and the torpedoes have a goodly chance of malfunctioning.

Try to get their experience up...

Some classes like Fanning have very few ships in them.

PS: Pretty sure I got them all.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/4/2019 11:56:36 AM >

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 21
RE: USN Destroyers - 6/7/2019 6:25:30 AM   
jdsrae


Posts: 850
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: The Land Downunder
Status: offline
Here is my summary slide for the admin organisation of USN DDs in 1941. I prepared this from google/wiki research so it should be pretty close to historical.
I tend to keep these DDs in Sqns of 8ish to escort CV/CA/CL but that doesn't leave much to escort merchants.
Sometimes I use the Porters in their pre-war "leader" role, other times I make a Division out of them.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no CrackSabbath): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 22
RE: USN Destroyers - 6/7/2019 6:31:47 AM   
jdsrae


Posts: 850
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: The Land Downunder
Status: offline
And here are the reinforcements.
Way too many to name them all so I just tend to group them into 9 ship Squadrons as they arrive and spread them around to each front line Fleet area.

One question, do people use the Fletchers to replace the older DDs escorting CVs or do they keep the older DDs as escorts and use all of the Fletchers in SCTFs?




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no CrackSabbath): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

(in reply to jdsrae)
Post #: 23
RE: USN Destroyers - 6/7/2019 7:14:40 AM   
Barb


Posts: 2486
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline
Hi I used this page https://destroyerhistory.org/
as a reference to do the similar table of Organizations than you. Of course I didn't make it in one go, but rather adding new DesDivs as destroyers arrive over time. One thing I hate about this was the decision to start the PBEM game with variable reinforcements - even with the limited +15/-15 setting this can result in a single 8/9 ship division arriving for 2-3 months on end!




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Barb -- 6/7/2019 7:18:37 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to jdsrae)
Post #: 24
RE: USN Destroyers - 6/7/2019 7:16:01 AM   
Barb


Posts: 2486
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline
And this page for the US DEs: http://www.desausa.org/de_divisions.htm






Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Barb)
Post #: 25
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> USN Destroyers Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.219