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Micro Management - 5/26/2019 1:30:12 AM   
BeirutDude


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So I haven't had a huge amount of experience with the game, but my take on it from what I have played is I have to do too much micromanagement of the units. So anything above two to three companies gets completely out of control. It's a great game but a few thoughts...

1. If the threat is over (no rounds fired at them for a few minutes (2-4?)) Mech infantry should reload into their carriers unless they had an "Unload" order. Man if artillery hits them I have to reload them over and over and over. If they're in decent order they should be able to do that themselves.
2. Not sure why "Scout" orders drop off when the unit is fired at, Recon guys are supposed to be the "smart ones" and take the initiative, not wait for the commander to tell them to get going again, and again, and again, and again!
3. HQ's on the other hand move like a Bat out of Hell! Far outstripping the companies, and even platoons near them. I get it that they are a single or two vehicle unit thus can find their through terrain easier than an company but even turning on and off waypoints they can get way ahead of the phase lines if your busy elsewhere, which us really easy in a several battalion engagement. Maybe they should have some type of A/I to not get too far ahead of the line units? Recon by HQ????
4. Overwatch Orders? Might be nice to add an "overwatch" order option where the unit advances to the waypoint and then assumes a "defend" order, Yes you can advance to a position and then add a second defend order, but that burns two waypoints.
5. Timing to activate a waypoint? So when the waypoint is set up have a time for it to become active. ( examples +00:20 minutes from scenario start or an explicit HH:MM hours ) IMHO This would help players set up Phase lines and thus not have to go back and activate an entire phase line for several battalions!

So just some thoughts/observations, "you may fire when ready Gridley!"

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 5/26/2019 1:33:06 AM >


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!
Post #: 1
RE: Micro Management - 5/26/2019 1:43:49 AM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1140
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
Oh yeah...

6. Shoot and scoot! On Board Artillery units shouldn't be firing more than a few volleys (if that many) in the same position. Suggest the A/I find a new firing position after firing two or three volleys in the same place. Again in small unit actions I can do that but put two or three Battalions plus support and Oy Vey!
7. I know you can give a "Cover" SOP, what does that do because as near as I can tell a unit that reaches it's last active waypoint just stops! Shouldn't they find the nearest cover? Again, when trying to handle some 300-400 units sometimes you just don't know those guys in the open in that portion of the map your not zoomed into are being butchered in the open because you haven't had time to activate the next waypoint.

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 5/26/2019 1:44:33 AM >


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 2
RE: Micro Management - 5/28/2019 1:40:47 PM   
wodin


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From: England
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Deleted

< Message edited by wodin -- 5/28/2019 2:05:25 PM >


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RE: Micro Management - 5/28/2019 1:45:48 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1050
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

1. If the threat is over (no rounds fired at them for a few minutes (2-4?)) Mech infantry should reload into their carriers unless they had an "Unload" order. Man if artillery hits them I have to reload them over and over and over. If they're in decent order they should be able to do that themselves.


Actually, the AI opponent does mount the units back to their transports after five minutes or so. Currently this is not available to the player side.

quote:



2. Not sure why "Scout" orders drop off when the unit is fired at, Recon guys are supposed to be the "smart ones" and take the initiative, not wait for the commander to tell them to get going again, and again, and again, and again!


Sometimes the vehicles pop smoke and retreat back to safety.

quote:



3. HQ's on the other hand move like a Bat out of Hell! Far outstripping the companies, and even platoons near them. I get it that they are a single or two vehicle unit thus can find their through terrain easier than an company but even turning on and off waypoints they can get way ahead of the phase lines if your busy elsewhere, which us really easy in a several battalion engagement. Maybe they should have some type of A/I to not get too far ahead of the line units? Recon by HQ????


Personally I usually keep the HQs behind other units, and try to make sure that the HQ rings covers as many units as possible. I don't know how it would be possible to automate this.

quote:



4. Overwatch Orders? Might be nice to add an "overwatch" order option where the unit advances to the waypoint and then assumes a "defend" order, Yes you can advance to a position and then add a second defend order, but that burns two waypoints.


You mean 'overwatch' should be a SOP option?

quote:



5. Timing to activate a waypoint? So when the waypoint is set up have a time for it to become active. ( examples +00:20 minutes from scenario start or an explicit HH:MM hours ) IMHO This would help players set up Phase lines and thus not have to go back and activate an entire phase line for several battalions!


An interesting idea. I wonder how should this work in the UI?


_____________________________

Know thyself!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 4
RE: Micro Management - 5/28/2019 2:05:32 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1050
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

6. Shoot and scoot! On Board Artillery units shouldn't be firing more than a few volleys (if that many) in the same position. Suggest the A/I find a new firing position after firing two or three volleys in the same place. Again in small unit actions I can do that but put two or three Battalions plus support and Oy Vey!


How to find an alternate position for them? The player may have positioned them carefully and doesn't want them to move. Automated movement can reveal the units to the enemy, or they can end up in a bad position that the player is not happy with.

quote:



7. I know you can give a "Cover" SOP, what does that do because as near as I can tell a unit that reaches it's last active waypoint just stops! Shouldn't they find the nearest cover? Again, when trying to handle some 300-400 units sometimes you just don't know those guys in the open in that portion of the map your not zoomed into are being butchered in the open because you haven't had time to activate the next waypoint.


The 'seek cover' SOP option makes the unit seek cover when under fire.

The 'cover' pathfind option makes an individual unit use a covered path, but it still ends up where the waypoint was placed. If a formation uses the 'cover' pathfind option then the attached units automatically move to cover in the last destination.


_____________________________

Know thyself!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
Post #: 5
RE: Micro Management - 5/28/2019 2:05:40 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10081
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Just posted in another thread about how important tacai is and how it should reduce micromanagement by acting in a tactical way that's obvious and common sense.

More SOP could be the way to do it. That way kind of preprograming units to react in certain ways under certain situations. SOPS that really are your standard operating procedure, basic 101 tactics.

I think where applicable SOPs be split into long,medium and short range to enemy. That way a player can specify a different reaction depending on distance to threat. The more SOPs the more a player can plan before start of battle knowing generally units are going to behave how you want them as each new situation arises. Meaning less player involvement once plans are done orders given and scenario gets underway. This is more realistic. Being about planning as much as possible before operation starts with as many based covered (sops) as possible. That's how I'd like the game to be. May not be for others though.

< Message edited by wodin -- 5/28/2019 2:08:58 PM >


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RE: Micro Management - 5/28/2019 4:04:51 PM   
exsonic01

 

Posts: 757
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From: Dusty town, somewhere inside central valley of CA
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quote:


An interesting idea. I wonder how should this work in the UI?

How about introducing 'pause', similar to CM series?

Single click = 10 sec pause, multiple click will increase pause time. During pause, let units in defilade position, or looking for hull-down or any defensive position, just like Defend command do. Players will be able to include different amount of pause during waypoint setting.

It would be better if AB allow players to 'click and select' the 'point' of waypoint after waypoint setting is over, and introduce pause later. But I guess that will require some coding so... this might be my future wish list.

quote:


How to find an alternate position for them? The player may have positioned them carefully and doesn't want them to move. Automated movement can reveal the units to the enemy, or they can end up in a bad position that the player is not happy with.

As you may remember, I'm also the one of the major advocates for shoot and scoop, but I also agree it might be tough to design this feature via coding.

Maybe it would be possible to adapt the algorithm of "defend" command, or mix with "Scout" move command. How do you think?

I'm not sure about the detail, but it seems that when "defend" command is activated, AI looks for the position, 1~2 tile around current tile, which have LoS to the designated area to watch, with best cover and concealment value. In addition, "Scout" move has the element of "reaction" against opponent. During scout move, when unit being attacked, the unit pop smoke and stop & move out of enemy LoS. Mixing two algorithm might bring something similar to "shoot and scoop".

It might be possible to include "shoot and scoop" in SOP and let players turn on/off, or it might be possible to include in right-click waypoint option, and let players use the feature like 'defend' or 'rotate'.

When "shoot and scoop" is activated, let tank or vehicle or infantry team engage for limited amount of time or limited amount of salvo, and reverse to the 2~3 tiles (1~2 tile for infantry) behind the current tile. Those 'retreating' tiles should be out of known enemy LoS, and AI should looking for the tile with better concealment / cover value, or prioritize the retreating tile to forest/wood/rumble tile around 2~3 tiles to maximize concealment / cover. After 30sec ~ 1 min later, let unit returns to original position (or adjacent tiles to original position), and engage again. But this 'returning' feature might be unnecessary, but I wish to have them, because this is what I mostly do when I play Squad and SB Pro. If nicely coded, AI can select other possible tile to return and attack again, other than original position.

During "shoot and scoop" it might be possible to let units 'reverse' only when the unit is being attacked, to maximize the effect of ambush. It might be possible to include another command, let say "ambush". "Shoot and scoop" shots 1 salvo or 2 salvo and retreat and wait and return, while "ambush" shots main armament until the moment when the unit being attacked, then retreat, wait and return.

If all tiles behind the current tiles to retreat are blocked by obstacles, then print "cannot find waypoint" and cancel the move. If all tiles to retreat are covered by enemy LoS, then let the unit pops smoke. If all smoke is out, then maybe cancel the order, or let the unit just retreats.

Like you mentioned, wrong "shoot and scoop" might bring worse results, but I guess this is the player's responsibility, to not activate "shoot and scoop" in wrong place and wrong time. If a tank is ordered to perform "shoot and scoop" in the middle of town and get killed by RPG while trying to change his position, that is player's fault. Isn't it?

From my experience of Squad and SB Pro, (Also ARMA3 but I don't play ARMA) when playing as tanker, me or other players usually use shoot and scoop on the hilltop, across/behind the treeline, or behind the big rock or house, and only when my tank have some good distance against enemy. Maybe it would be possible to use "existence of useful cover" and "distance from enemy" as a condition to engage the "shoot and scoop" but this might be too difficult and complicated. So, I think, for shoot and scoop, best way to express is via adapt and mix the "defend" and "scout" command, and add some additional if and for loops.

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 5/28/2019 11:22:13 PM >

(in reply to Veitikka)
Post #: 7
RE: Micro Management - 5/28/2019 8:34:18 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 1140
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Actually, the AI opponent does mount the units back to their transports after five minutes or so. Currently this is not available to the player side.


I would suggest making this a player "option"

quote:

sometimes the vehicles pop smoke and retreat back to safety.


Agreed, but when a company of T-62s is shot out from under you before you can react it's hard to notice that BRDM popping smoke. More seriously, yes but too often units with a "Cover" SOP just hang out in the open waiting for their next order.

quote:

Personally I usually keep the HQs behind other units, and try to make sure that the HQ rings covers as many units as possible. I don't know how it would be possible to automate this.


I do as well, and in smaller scenarios that is easy, get 3-4 Bns out there and they have a bad habit or racing head if you don't stop them. Maybe actually make the HQ part of the company TO&E? I understand you want to make things customizable, but what company doesn't have one (or more likely two) vehicles as its HQ element. Keep the separate HQs to build Battalion HQs but maybe make the company HQs as part of the standard TO&E.

quote:

You mean 'overwatch' should be a SOP option?


I was thinking an Order over SOP but think either could work.

quote:

An interesting idea. I wonder how should this work in the UI?


Perk of playing the human side????

quote:

How to find an alternate position for them? The player may have positioned them carefully and doesn't want them to move. Automated movement can reveal the units to the enemy, or they can end up in a bad position that the player is not happy with.


So seems to me an easy solution is to just make "Shoot n Scoot" a player "option" as opposed to part of the standard rules/programing. Now how to find another position might be tough. exsonic01's comments seem interesting.



< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 5/28/2019 9:19:07 PM >


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to Veitikka)
Post #: 8
RE: Micro Management - 6/4/2019 10:42:04 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1050
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Just posted in another thread about how important tacai is and how it should reduce micromanagement by acting in a tactical way that's obvious and common sense.

More SOP could be the way to do it. That way kind of preprograming units to react in certain ways under certain situations. SOPS that really are your standard operating procedure, basic 101 tactics.

I think where applicable SOPs be split into long,medium and short range to enemy. That way a player can specify a different reaction depending on distance to threat. The more SOPs the more a player can plan before start of battle knowing generally units are going to behave how you want them as each new situation arises. Meaning less player involvement once plans are done orders given and scenario gets underway. This is more realistic. Being about planning as much as possible before operation starts with as many based covered (sops) as possible. That's how I'd like the game to be. May not be for others though.


I think if in the future there will be a UI revamp like this, to allow the player to pre-plan all unit/formation behavior by using some kind of templates, perhaps by having a different SOP for every waypoint, then it must be developed together with an AI opponent that is programmable by the scenario designer. I believe this will be necessary if our goal is to convert the software into a serious training or simulation tool.


_____________________________

Know thyself!

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 9
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