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New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 2:24:07 AM   
Zovs


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So I have a scenario I am continuing on from TOAW III. I converted and have been updating it for TOAW IV.

Up to this point all has been well and my initial play tests went fine allowing me to adjust the OOB's and formations.

But I just set all the supply points to a value (100, 75, 50, 25 and 5) and had set the Overextended value to 4. I also set the Supply Radius for both sides to 10 hexes and I set the Road Supply Radius to 4 for both sides. I am thinking I need to set the overextended supply to 0?

When I opened up my scenario in game mode, much to my horror all of both sides forces have combat values of 0 and 1 and they all are re-organizing (including the air). I suppose the easy fix would be to re-set all the supply points to 0 and forgot about Overextended. But that does not seem to be right.

Points, tips and tricks?

What I am I doing wrong?

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 2:35:55 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs
So I have a scenario I am continuing on from TOAW III. I converted and have been updating it for TOAW IV.

Up to this point all has been well and my initial play tests went fine allowing me to adjust the OOB's and formations.

But I just set all the supply points to a value (100, 75, 50, 25 and 5) and had set the Overextended value to 4. I also set the Supply Radius for both sides to 10 hexes and I set the Road Supply Radius to 4 for both sides. I am thinking I need to set the overextended supply to 0?

When I opened up my scenario in game mode, much to my horror all of both sides forces have combat values of 0 and 1 and they all are re-organizing (including the air). I suppose the easy fix would be to re-set all the supply points to 0 and forgot about Overextended. But that does not seem to be right.

Points, tips and tricks?

What I am I doing wrong?

Don, Don, Don. You need the supply points to be able to feed the units and the further apart the supply points are the bigger must be the road radius. The overextended value set to 0 means the units will hardly ever be unsupplied. Only when they park in a hex with 0 or less supply will they be unsupplied. I've seen scenarios that use this value. It's not weird. I think D21 uses 5 hexes of road radius. Try supply points of 100 each and see if that results in a value too high in the hexes. If so tweak them to taste. Let me know if this helps at all.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 5/7/2019 2:39:58 AM >


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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 2:57:19 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

When I opened up my scenario in game mode, much to my horror all of both sides forces have combat values of 0 and 1 and they all are re-organizing (including the air).


Sounds like you have a huge negative shock event for both sides.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 1:54:07 PM   
Zovs


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So as far as I can determine (all the Supply Points worked previously in my tests prior to me setting them to a value (they had nothing from the conversion of TOAW III), until I set the Supply Points to values such as 100, 75, 50, 25 and 5).

I have gone in and looked at a few scenarios that may use the 'New Supply Rules' and have seen this:

Barbarossa 41 ((Supply radius 4 only side 1))
Eastern Front 1941-1945 (Supply radius 3/3)
World at War 1939-1945 (Supply radius 12/12)
All three use roadSupplyRadius="4" (for both sides) and an extendedSupply="0" (for both sides).

Directive 21 1941-1945 (Supply radius 4/6) is the only one that shows a roadSupplyRadius="4" (for both sides) and an extendedSupply="2" and extendedSupply="5".

Which is not too different then my scenario.

Here are my settings for my scenario:

Axis Supply range set to 25 hexes
Allied Supply range set to 25 hexes
roadSupplyRadius="4" (for both sides)
extendedSupply="6" (for both sides)
Supply Points to values set to: 100, 75, 50, 25 and 5 (some the same for both sides but different values)

So here is some screen shots to help illustrate:

Situation Briefing #1

All looks normal to me.

Situation Briefing #2


News Summary #1

Everything seems fine here.

Units on map at start:

Note that all units for both sides are re-organizing and have attack defend values of 0 and 1 but are showing overextend supply status for some reason.

Units on map hidden at start, showing the Supply points and how the 'trace' supply is set to 'flow'.

Note that there is no values in any of the supply points hexes and this where I don't understand what is going on.

Unit Report:

Note it's showing re-organized, and overextend supply status even though it's supply is at 100%.
In the previous edition of this scenario (i.e. before I changed the Supply Points to 100, 75, 50, 25 or 5), this was never the case (i.e., all units were supplied and no re-org's).

In the game editor you can see I set various Supply Points to 100 for these Supply Points:


Lastly, this is a XML text file of my *.gam file showing that both force 1 and 2 have Supply set to a value(s).


But the new supply rules are not working correctly in my scenario with the above values.

So I am a little confused on what is wrong and why the supply is all gacked up now.

So any help is appreciated.

If need be an experienced scenario designer that would like to look at my scenario to help me would be appreciated. If the answer is not staring me in the face but very obvious to you and you can just point out my deficiency in understanding lol.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 2:04:42 PM   
Zovs


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One last thought, I have not yet run 'Automatic Ownership' since I converted it from TOAW III to IV. It seemed to work prior to that.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 2:30:34 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs


Situation Briefing #2


It is just as I've told you in my post #3: You have a huge negative shock effect for both sides. Look at the shock values. (100 is neutral).

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 2:39:24 PM   
Zovs


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So the:

Our Air Shock level is 100%
Their Air Shock level is 100%
Our Shock level is 0%
Their Shock level is 0%

Is set in the Event Editor:

<EVENT ID="63" TRIGGER="Event activated" CONTINGENCY="62" EFFECT="Air Shock 1" X="2" Y="3" VALUE="150" TURN="1" NEWS="Axis Surprise Air Attack"/>
<EVENT ID="64" TRIGGER="Event activated" CONTINGENCY="63" EFFECT="Air Shock 1" X="2" Y="3" VALUE="100" TURN="4" NEWS="Axis Air Surprise ended"/>
<EVENT ID="65" TRIGGER="Event activated" CONTINGENCY="62" EFFECT="Shock 1" X="2" Y="3" VALUE="130" NEWS="Axis Surprise Ground Attack"/>
<EVENT ID="66" TRIGGER="Event activated" CONTINGENCY="65" EFFECT="Shock 1" X="2" Y="3" VALUE="100" TURN="4" NEWS="Axis Ground Surprise ended"/>

When I first converted this scenario this did not happen. It was only after I set the Supply Point Values and Overextended values.

So I am still scratching my head. I was thinking that setting the Axis Shock level to 130 on turn 1 and setting it back to 100 on turn 4 was the way to proceed.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 2:41:34 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

So the:

Our Air Shock level is 100%
Their Air Shock level is 100%
Our Shock level is 0%
Their Shock level is 0%

Is set in the Event Editor:

<EVENT ID="63" TRIGGER="Event activated" CONTINGENCY="62" EFFECT="Air Shock 1" X="2" Y="3" VALUE="150" TURN="1" NEWS="Axis Surprise Air Attack"/>
<EVENT ID="64" TRIGGER="Event activated" CONTINGENCY="63" EFFECT="Air Shock 1" X="2" Y="3" VALUE="100" TURN="4" NEWS="Axis Air Surprise ended"/>
<EVENT ID="65" TRIGGER="Event activated" CONTINGENCY="62" EFFECT="Shock 1" X="2" Y="3" VALUE="130" NEWS="Axis Surprise Ground Attack"/>
<EVENT ID="66" TRIGGER="Event activated" CONTINGENCY="65" EFFECT="Shock 1" X="2" Y="3" VALUE="100" TURN="4" NEWS="Axis Ground Surprise ended"/>

When I first converted this scenario this did not happen. It was only after I set the Supply Point Values and Overextended values.

So I am still scratching my head. I was thinking that setting the Axis Shock level to 130 on turn 1 and setting it back to 100 on turn 4 was the way to proceed.

You have another event somewhere that sets them both to 0.

Edit: Actually that would be two events.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 5/7/2019 2:42:00 PM >


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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 3:08:05 PM   
Zovs


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Okay, well double checking the *.gam file shows no other events but those four I posted are the only ones showing up in the XML file (searching for 'case sensitive' "Shock").

I wonder if I need to change it from:

<EVENT ID="62" TRIGGER="Event activated" CONTINGENCY="62" EFFECT="Shock 1" X="2" Y="3" VALUE="130" NEWS="Axis Surprise Ground Attack"/> 


to:
<EVENT ID="62" TRIGGER="Turn" EFFECT="Shock 1" VALUE="130" NEWS="Axis Surprise Ground Attack"/>


If that would cure it?

Still don't get why previously this was not issue until I messed with the supply points.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 3:36:05 PM   
Zovs


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No that is not the solution.

Here is my events for the Shock:

<EVENT ID="61" TRIGGER="Turn" EFFECT="Theater Option 1" X="2" Y="3" VALUE="61" NEWS="Initiate Operation Barbarossa"/>
<EVENT ID="62" TRIGGER="Event activated" CONTINGENCY="62" EFFECT="Remove zone 1" X="2" Y="3" TURN="1"/>
<EVENT ID="63" TRIGGER="Event activated" CONTINGENCY="62" EFFECT="Air Shock 1" X="2" Y="3" VALUE="150" TURN="1" NEWS="Axis Surprise Air Attack"/>
<EVENT ID="64" TRIGGER="Event activated" CONTINGENCY="63" EFFECT="Air Shock 1" X="2" Y="3" VALUE="100" TURN="4" NEWS="Axis Air Surprise ended"/>
<EVENT ID="65" TRIGGER="Event activated" CONTINGENCY="62" EFFECT="Shock 1" X="2" Y="3" VALUE="130" NEWS="Axis Surprise Ground Attack"/>
<EVENT ID="66" TRIGGER="Event activated" CONTINGENCY="65" EFFECT="Shock 1" X="2" Y="3" VALUE="100" TURN="4" NEWS="Axis Ground Surprise ended"/>

So the ground and air shock are only set when the Axis player selects to take the theater option to initiate Operation Barbarossa.

Digging and adding a few more tasks such as:

<EVENT ID="112" TRIGGER="Turn" EFFECT="Shock 1" VALUE="150"/>
<EVENT ID="113" TRIGGER="Turn" EFFECT="News only" X="2" Y="3" NEWS="Axis launches Fall Weiß - Shock = 150"/>
<EVENT ID="114" TRIGGER="Turn" EFFECT="Shock 1" VALUE="125" TURN="35"/>
<EVENT ID="115" TRIGGER="Turn" EFFECT="News only" X="2" Y="3" NEWS="Axis prepares for Fall Gelb - Shock = 125"/>
<EVENT ID="116" TRIGGER="Turn" EFFECT="Shock 1" VALUE="115" TURN="40"/>
<EVENT ID="117" TRIGGER="Turn" EFFECT="News only" X="2" Y="3" NEWS="Axis inital surprise begins to wear off - 115"/>
<EVENT ID="118" TRIGGER="Turn" EFFECT="Shock 1" VALUE="100" TURN="62"/>
<EVENT ID="119" TRIGGER="Turn" EFFECT="News only" X="2" Y="3" NEWS="Axis inital surprise levels off - 100"/>



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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 3:58:48 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Your Shock Levels are 0 for both forces. That can only be done by event. You must have such events. Look harder. Look in the actual Event Editor, not the xml files.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 4:49:55 PM   
cathar1244

 

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Zovs,

Map note. Poznan should be shown as fortified. The city was ringed by 18 forts as well as having a large central citadel. In 1945, the Red Army had to reduce the German garrison over an extended period of time.

Cheers

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 4:57:21 PM   
Zovs


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Yeah, I am digging through the event editor engine and just not seeing any events that are setting the shock of any kind to 0.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 5:04:39 PM   
Zovs


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Plus the effective supply is at 0.

Scratching my head on this one. Prior to making the supply adjustments the scenario worked fine. Now the two issues seem to be supply and surprise.

I don't see any thing (off hand) in the in game editor, in the dump file I created, nor the XML file I generated.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 5:07:40 PM   
Zovs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Zovs,

Map note. Poznan should be shown as fortified. The city was ringed by 18 forts as well as having a large central citadel. In 1945, the Red Army had to reduce the German garrison over an extended period of time.

Cheers


Thanks for the tip!

As the game sits (and starts in 1939) I Pozan in controlled by the Polish (Allied) army and its at 18% entrenchment. That being said after your tip I set it to 100%.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 6:13:38 PM   
Zovs


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So none of that worked!

Ever since I switched this scenario to use on map Supply Points with values it has broken my scenario. Previously after the conversion all the Supply Points did not have a value.

I can see nothing in the Event Editor Engine that shows any Air or Ground Shock set to 0 but the scenario still thinks it is set to 0% after the Supply Changes.

I must be missing something really stupid but could use some help.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 7:23:01 PM   
Lobster


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You should probably make the scenario available so maybe Steve or someone could look at it.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 7:42:18 PM   
Zovs


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Okay Lobster, I don't mind doing that but its not 100% ready for prime time yet (I have set up for 9/39 - 1/43 for the Germans, CW, and Russians and to 6/45 for the US, need to expand out Germany, Russia and the CW, after I flush out the US I was going to hit the CW and then do the Germans and Russians from 1/43 to 6/45).

Steve, Bob or Lobster would you mind taking a look? I can send via email.

Thanks in adfance.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 8:04:10 PM   
sPzAbt653


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I can peek at it, my e-mail is over there <<< by my Real Name.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/7/2019 9:59:11 PM   
Zovs


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Well folks sad news indeed. Steve is helping out, but it seems something maybe corrupt, its a shame, its so close but something is amiss.

I'll try to salvage it if I can, but I may end up going back to Steel Panthers after this one...man ...

I'll try a few more experiments...

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/8/2019 12:12:25 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Well folks sad news indeed. Steve is helping out, but it seems something maybe corrupt, its a shame, its so close but something is amiss.

I'll try to salvage it if I can, but I may end up going back to Steel Panthers after this one...man ...

I'll try a few more experiments...

Very sorry to hear this. Have you thought about adding another couple of events to raise the shock value, again? Or raising the supply levels to some crazy levels, just to see what happens?

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/8/2019 12:29:49 AM   
Zovs


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I and Steve tried that, the closest that he came was to set it to 999 but that just seemed weird.

Good news though. I still have back up copies, unfortantantly all my back up copies that I modified exhibit this behavior. However, I still had a virgin copy of my scenario from 2002 (COW) and I opened that up in TOAW III saved that, opened up the game and played the first turn and all was good.

Then I took that saved scenario opened it TOAW IV and saved that. It also worked as you would expect.

So (lucky for me) I then imported my new custom map that I did over the last week into this working scenario and after the map imported and was saved started a scenario and it worked okay.

Next I started where I started two weeks ago. I noticed that Finland, Ireland and the Russians in the Baltic were out of supply (the Russians are in an exclusion zone). So first test was with Finland (all it's normal Supply Points are in cities (ports mainly) that I put exclusion zones on so that players would not abuse the system and sail into the port prior to Finland being activated. So now with TOAW IV your have to put a value of 1-100 for a Supply Point for it to be on the map. First test I set a Supply Point on a RR in Finland (was not happy about it because it should be in the city but apparently exclusion zones prevent supplies). Saved it and started a scenario and presto the Finns are back in supply.

So now I just need to do the easy part and set some Supply Points with values, somehow the system auto magically assigns supply values from the ones I placed on the map in TOAW III but I have no idea how or why or what. But I can see values ranging from 58 to 33 to 25 etc.

So if the "powers that be" can let me know if I do need to set these Supply Points to some value or if I can just leave them "empty" which is odd because I'd rather have more control over that with out breaking the supply system. For example all capitals should be 100, next up cities and industry and oil 75, smaller yet, and ports 50 and 25 for even smaller areas or smaller ports.

I'd love to use the new supply rules but somehow it got all whacked in my first try or some data corruption occurred with my using XML imports.

So I can rebuild the units later. I have back up of my eqp file and just want and need to get the supply system aok.

Another question, since I did too many things at once (supply, added new units and formations and add in HQ and try to use the new supply rules), would HQ's command squads and support squads effect any of this?

Determined to bring this to fruition.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/8/2019 1:05:55 AM   
Zovs


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Well good news. With test 8 I placed Supply Points as either 100, 75, 50 or 25 as I thought appropriate and all is looking good. I think even in the exclusion zones as well (tired eyes). So it seems that when you convert a TOAW III or CoW scenario you should take great care in setting the Supply Points to some value. It seems that sometimes the game will set them but in more complex ones it may or may not.

So I'll have to play around with what I got. Even the ones set at 100 are not giving 100% supply. I still have to set the other rates. Currently it's set to 10 for both sides (the map is 25km per hex at one week turns).

Once I get the supply and "hopefully" extended supply sorted out and it works as I intend then I'll go back recreate my HQ units and insert then and then with the base formations I have (30 infantry, 4, Panzer, 4 PanzerGrenadier, 1 Motorized, 1 SS, several AA, several Air and a Mountain for just the Germans for an example, go back in update some of thier TOEs and then I'll need to add back the US from 42-45, and then the CW from 43-45 and then the Germans and Russians from 43-45.

This may be my summer project.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/8/2019 1:41:47 AM   
Zovs


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Yes, I am really happy with the supply now it makes sense. I set the capitals (Berlin, Paris, London and Rome) to 250%, I set Moscow to 250%, + 100% + 100% (there are three hexes of Moscow). Most minor capitals are 100% and most industry is at 75 or 100. Ports are mostly at 25 or 50 if bigger.

So now just need to figure out the new extended supply rules and apply that.



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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/8/2019 1:54:18 AM   
Lobster


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Importing/exporting XML is something that always scares me.

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RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/8/2019 2:22:51 AM   
Zovs


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It’s really not that bad if you follow a good routine .

Open scenario save as 1.1
Map done and export save as 1.2
Add units save as 1.3
Make formations save as 1.4
Deploy save as 1.5
Set supply save as 1.6
Test
Tweak supply save as 1.7
Test
Tweak stuff save as 1.8
Make eqp save as 1.9
Export as *.gam
Load in editor tweak import xml save as 1.10
Test
Fix stuff save as 1.11
Export gam and save game and eqp as 1.12
Rinse repeat

If the import hoses something go back to previous version and rethink what gacked you and change directions and save as 1.13

Rinse and repeat

The TOAWXMLTool is fantastic but you to be prudent and save.

Luckily my map was good and I learned a lot on what not to do too much of.


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(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 26
RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/8/2019 3:53:12 AM   
Lobster


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Problem is the XML export is still bugged. It spits out units as parents of themselves. Like they are bacteria or something.

So anyway, that leads me to not entirely trust the format. Backup everything constantly. And as you pointed out, incremental changes.

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(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 27
RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/8/2019 11:20:57 AM   
Zovs


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Yes I also noticed the PARENT tag, there were 41 of them in my export and as a designer I never split units so in VSCode it was a simply search and replace to fix that in 3 seconds, the problem is the uninitiated would have to ask or dig in to find out why. I saw a list of my US units in the in game editor as being un-selectable in the Force editor but place-able on map.

Saw that they were showing Divided in Toms editor and looked at the XML and put two and two together and removed the offending PARENT tag and presto all was good again.

I suspect that my woes are still related to supply, overextended supply and the HQs I created. I added command squads and support squads. I’ll find out in my tests today. Or it was just some data corruption I either self imposed, was exported out or some other means.

I am not afraid of exporting out of the game and using Toms tool, I have seen both work really well. You can start in the editor with nothing loaded and take a *.gam file and import it in and your off, you’ll have to save it and the eqp but you can work like this back and forth.




< Message edited by Zovs -- 5/8/2019 11:45:37 AM >


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War in the East/War in the East II - Alpha Test Teams
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(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 28
RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/8/2019 3:16:59 PM   
76mm


Posts: 3752
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs
Yes I also noticed the PARENT tag, there were 41 of them in my export and as a designer I never split units so in VSCode it was a simply search and replace to fix that in 3 seconds, the problem is the uninitiated would have to ask or dig in to find out why.


I just wanted to point out that TOAWxml now fixes this XML export problem automatically when TOAWxml opens, or when it loads a new gam file.

But every time you export a new gam file from the in-game editor, you must either restart TOAWxml or reload the gam file in TOAWxml--otherwise TOAWxml does not fix this XML export problem.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 5/8/2019 3:17:50 PM >

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 29
RE: New Supply Rules / Overextended Supply questions - 5/8/2019 5:17:20 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 3989
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline
Thanks for that Tom! By the time I saw them and fixed them you probably fixed the code lol.

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(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 30
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