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A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/6/2019 1:26:14 PM   
knallgiraffe

 

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From: Germany
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I've been playing WITPAE since 2014...well....at least I had phases of total obsession interrupted by periods of sheer negligence of the game. As it is I am in the obsession mode again at this point so that raises a few questions now and then.

Last year I wanted to add a little "personal touch" to the game by "inventing" a seaplane tender (I also had an obsession about drawing ships...) around which a story would be told. Not a game changer but a little personal "what if"-note (Northrop N3PB would be loaded upon that tender and Consolidated P2Y would constitute a separate patrol squadron).

Now after "reactivating" the game I've started then, the idea of the story has died (probably boring anyway) and while my self created seaplane tender rusts away in San Diego with the pilots dying of boredom I came along problems that weren't obvious to me last year as I never managed to get further than Feb 1942 before the sheer negligence phase set in again.

Now when facing the building up of atolls and small islands I came upon the problem of unloading artillery, radar and so on and I know I have to have the necessary naval support found in the Port Service units. Now my questions:

1. Are there any ships or ship types I can add to the TFs so that the units can at least fully unload themselves without having a rarely found Port Service unit?

2. If I was to create a support ship assuming it has cranes sufficient to unload say a SCR-270 radar or some guns (which is just a matter of a few tons, not trebucheting a battleship over the yard) how many naval support would it need to get the standard equipment unloaded?

I don't intend to make this thing overpowered to override any size restrictions just be a little more mobile at a reasonable scale.
Post #: 1
RE: A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/6/2019 3:34:20 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14709
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
Some heavy equipment simply cannot be unloaded amphibiously, I believe. A support engineer unit wouldn't help. You have to build the port to a level one and have that heavy equipment loaded on a ship of 6k tons or less to unload. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

(in reply to knallgiraffe)
Post #: 2
RE: A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/6/2019 3:40:11 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14709
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From: St. Louis
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Some things you can't just dump on a beach and you're good. It has to be offloaded directly onto a truck or trailer which is on a dock, connected by a road to wherever you're going to set the thing up.

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 3
RE: A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/6/2019 3:45:22 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 17097
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: knallgiraffe

I've been playing WITPAE since 2014...well....at least I had phases of total obsession interrupted by periods of sheer negligence of the game. As it is I am in the obsession mode again at this point so that raises a few questions now and then.

Last year I wanted to add a little "personal touch" to the game by "inventing" a seaplane tender (I also had an obsession about drawing ships...) around which a story would be told. Not a game changer but a little personal "what if"-note (Northrop N3PB would be loaded upon that tender and Consolidated P2Y would constitute a separate patrol squadron).

Now after "reactivating" the game I've started then, the idea of the story has died (probably boring anyway) and while my self created seaplane tender rusts away in San Diego with the pilots dying of boredom I came along problems that weren't obvious to me last year as I never managed to get further than Feb 1942 before the sheer negligence phase set in again.

Now when facing the building up of atolls and small islands I came upon the problem of unloading artillery, radar and so on and I know I have to have the necessary naval support found in the Port Service units. Now my questions:

1. Are there any ships or ship types I can add to the TFs so that the units can at least fully unload themselves without having a rarely found Port Service unit?

2. If I was to create a support ship assuming it has cranes sufficient to unload say a SCR-270 radar or some guns (which is just a matter of a few tons, not trebucheting a battleship over the yard) how many naval support would it need to get the standard equipment unloaded?

I don't intend to make this thing overpowered to override any size restrictions just be a little more mobile at a reasonable scale.


1. LCTs (barges) will help with amphib unloading and can be created if the TF has over 20K supply and IF the date is after the activation date for Allied barges. I don't know offhand when that is but I don't recall historical mention of LCTs until into 1943.
2. Off loading is not just support ships - it is also piers strong enough to support the load (if the ship is docked) and vehicles that can move the unloaded item inland. These are not shown as individual items but are part of the port level capacity numbers. Be aware that, because of a bug, the port service units do not provide any unloading help at ports that have an SPS of 0 - i.e. not that actual port size but the potential size shown in () parentheses.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to knallgiraffe)
Post #: 4
RE: A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/6/2019 4:10:27 PM   
knallgiraffe

 

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Thanks for your replies. Probably saved me from frustration.

My attempt at unloading the radar and arty was IIRC not an amphibious TF at a port size 1. But I am not too sure about this anymore. Anyway it unloaded as soon as I had the port service unit there so I thought the support ship would help immediately. I was not aware of the bug regarding the SPS 0 bases.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 5
RE: A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/7/2019 12:53:19 AM   
geofflambert


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You can't afford to station naval support engineers anywhere but a major port or one that can become major, so the bug about (0) ports is irrelevant, you'd be crazy to put that kind of engineers there anyway.

(in reply to knallgiraffe)
Post #: 6
RE: A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/8/2019 6:19:03 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7176
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

I was not aware of the bug regarding the SPS 0 bases.


It was a recent happening in one of the last 'beta' patches. Unfortunately MichealM was called away before anyone really noticed. In case you are unaware, until not too long ago he and some other devs were involved with improving the game.

Its not really a severe 'bug' and the same patch fixed some pretty important items.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 7
RE: A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/8/2019 6:46:27 PM   
AleRonin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I was not aware of the bug regarding the SPS 0 bases.


It was a recent happening in one of the last 'beta' patches. Unfortunately MichealM was called away before anyone really noticed. In case you are unaware, until not too long ago he and some other devs were involved with improving the game.

Its not really a severe 'bug' and the same patch fixed some pretty important items.



What do you mean with "was called away"? Is the game no more supported by devs?

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 8
RE: A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/8/2019 6:55:53 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7176
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
Dude, its ten years old, and the support only stopped recently. Show me another game that was supported that long by its devs.

I'd like to add that its improvements are immense since its inception.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to AleRonin)
Post #: 9
RE: A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/9/2019 1:28:21 PM   
knallgiraffe

 

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Joined: 5/6/2019
From: Germany
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A new question arose.

I had some kind of battle of Midway without my carriers. So I saw the Japanese coming in, "slightly crippling" a battleship with SBDs and surface forces at first (so the planes can fly).

Then came their carriers. And suddenly the SBD's pilots put on their colorful cap with the propeller on it, spun it and said "look I'm doing a flight mission".

The only planes taking to the sky were some old faithful Vindicators in night mission and a squadron of SBDs also at night mission - hitting nothing. Neither of the day mission (Naval attack, 30-40% search) SBDs rose to the skies while the Kates and Vals tried to obliterate my ships and island.

The SBD squadrons are fairly experienced as they crunched several invasion fleets inbound for Wake throughout the year. There are 3 or 4 squadrons of SBDs on the island with 16-18 planes each.

I replayed the turns on different settings with fighters, without, on night mission, on day mission, with ice cream on a spoon and doing the "here comes the plane"-move to motivate their Aggression 68 leaders....nothing worked. For a week no dive bomber would fly in daylight to get those carriers that virtually docked and replenished in my port. Their altitudes were set all the same, 14.000 feet for each and every squadron. I had several Catalinas searching the area day and night to keep the DL high. To no avail. But when they were on Wake (those same squadrons), they happily engaged every DD and AK they saw or heard of. And Wake is a place the farthest possibly away from any HQ on the whole map that could've helped with strike coordination or motivation.

I have no idea what I could have overseen. Fatigue level is also very low. I am not exactly sure but none exceeds 20%. The pilots are experienced and skilled with NavB ranging in the 70s and 80s. The weather ranged from overcast to clear sky - no flights.

Stacking of airgroups initially was 9 of five, later reduced to 5 of 5. Didn't help either so I assume overstacking isn't the case.

And as I have said the Bombardment TF was attacked successfully. In the second replay of the turn they didn't even manage to close in to the immediate island vicinity. But their carriers....as soon as they are spotted, they (the SBD pilots) seem to disperse never to be found again unless one of the squadron flies a night mission. Setting them all to night had the effect of none of them flying...but this may be a coincidence and is not important as they just don't hit anything at night.

I have read of TFs that don't send out sorties even with juicy targets next to them.

< Message edited by knallgiraffe -- 5/9/2019 1:34:06 PM >

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 10
RE: A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/9/2019 2:49:56 PM   
HansBolter


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Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

You can't afford to station naval support engineers anywhere but a major port or one that can become major, so the bug about (0) ports is irrelevant, you'd be crazy to put that kind of engineers there anyway.


That's not true if you are playing a Babe's mod based scenario.

Babes breaks down many of the large Allied base units into smaller components for more flexibility.

Port Construction battalions and Port Maintenance battalions are both small units with Naval Support perfect for use at small islands.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 11
RE: A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/9/2019 2:52:04 PM   
HansBolter


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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: knallgiraffe


I have read of TFs that don't send out sorties even with juicy targets next to them.



And 99% of the time this is attributable to weather.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to knallgiraffe)
Post #: 12
RE: A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/9/2019 3:38:25 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6560
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: knallgiraffe

A new question arose.

I had some kind of battle of Midway without my carriers. So I saw the Japanese coming in, "slightly crippling" a battleship with SBDs and surface forces at first (so the planes can fly).

Then came their carriers. And suddenly the SBD's pilots put on their colorful cap with the propeller on it, spun it and said "look I'm doing a flight mission".

The only planes taking to the sky were some old faithful Vindicators in night mission and a squadron of SBDs also at night mission - hitting nothing. Neither of the day mission (Naval attack, 30-40% search) SBDs rose to the skies while the Kates and Vals tried to obliterate my ships and island.

The SBD squadrons are fairly experienced as they crunched several invasion fleets inbound for Wake throughout the year. There are 3 or 4 squadrons of SBDs on the island with 16-18 planes each.

I replayed the turns on different settings with fighters, without, on night mission, on day mission, with ice cream on a spoon and doing the "here comes the plane"-move to motivate their Aggression 68 leaders....nothing worked. For a week no dive bomber would fly in daylight to get those carriers that virtually docked and replenished in my port. Their altitudes were set all the same, 14.000 feet for each and every squadron. I had several Catalinas searching the area day and night to keep the DL high. To no avail. But when they were on Wake (those same squadrons), they happily engaged every DD and AK they saw or heard of. And Wake is a place the farthest possibly away from any HQ on the whole map that could've helped with strike coordination or motivation.

I have no idea what I could have overseen. Fatigue level is also very low. I am not exactly sure but none exceeds 20%. The pilots are experienced and skilled with NavB ranging in the 70s and 80s. The weather ranged from overcast to clear sky - no flights.

Stacking of airgroups initially was 9 of five, later reduced to 5 of 5. Didn't help either so I assume overstacking isn't the case.

And as I have said the Bombardment TF was attacked successfully. In the second replay of the turn they didn't even manage to close in to the immediate island vicinity. But their carriers....as soon as they are spotted, they (the SBD pilots) seem to disperse never to be found again unless one of the squadron flies a night mission. Setting them all to night had the effect of none of them flying...but this may be a coincidence and is not important as they just don't hit anything at night.

I have read of TFs that don't send out sorties even with juicy targets next to them.


Very colourful narrative, zero real useful information. What exactly, in game mechanic terms, is a pilot with a colourful spinning propeller. Or what constitutes your provision of an ice cream with a spoon. Such language does not communicate what exactly did you do.

1. You state you have 3 or 4 SBD units on the island. Why don't you know how many you have?

2. You state a SBD squadron attacked at night. Is this one of the 3 or 4 of point 1 or a separate squadron making it a total of 4 or 5 SBD units on the island?

3. When you state that "neither of the day mission (Naval attack, 30-40% search) SBDs rose to the skies" are we to infer the "neither" means 2 squadrons? Together with the night attack of point 2, that would account for all 3 squadrons present (if the lower number of point 1 is the case). Or do you mean no attack in the am or pm phase occurred.

4. You state that the SBDs assisted in "slightly crippling" a Bombardment Task Force. Where these the same SBD units of points 1, 2 and 3? Presumably yes which immediately raises two obvious discussion issues. Firstly, did all the available SBD units attack the Bombardment Task Force? Secondly, just how many times in a turn do you think a bomber unit will launch an attack. The answer is once only except if the mission is a Naval Attack where a second attack may occur under certain conditions. Were these conditions present? If not present, then unless you had unused SBD units of course no attack would be forthcoming on the Air Combat5 Task Force.

5. Have you read s.7.2.1.7.1 of the manual? What does an enemy Air Combat Task Force have which an enemy Bombardment Task Force, or the various unspecified task forces containing DD and AK which approached Wake, do not have. Answer is fighters. Other than a brief reference to fiddling with fighter settings, you make no reference of how many friendly fighters are present, nor what their settings actually are. Have you actually considered that the situation outlined in s.7.2.1.7.1 of the manual might apply here? It would certainly explain why enemy targets without air cover are attacked during the day or why attacks against enemy targets with air cover are attacked at night.

6. It may, or may not be relevant, but no mention of morale is provided in your colourful narrative. Instead fatigue, aggressiveness, pilot experience and naval skill are mentioned, three of which have no bearing on whether a squadron will actually take off and all four are trumped by the morale state.

7. It would also be valuable to know the exact MDL and DL levels of the different enemy task forces. Just because you have spotted an enemy Air Combat Task Force inter alia, is no guarantee that it will be the prime target of your bombers.


Lack of precision rarely results in an accurate analysis and identification of the necessary remedial actions.

Alfred

(in reply to knallgiraffe)
Post #: 13
RE: A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/9/2019 4:34:00 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 17097
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: online
knallgiraffe, you might feel scolded by Alfred but that has happened to many of us who lack precision and have not done enough research to find answers. Do not be discouraged, he is correct and he is trying to help you find the answers you need yourself.

You seem to have looked at a lot of places for potential answers but your post count is quite low so I assume you have been playing without help for some time. Kudos for taking on this game and please come to the forum for help whenever you need it!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 14
RE: A little fantasy.... (Support Ships etc.) - 5/9/2019 5:55:11 PM   
knallgiraffe

 

Posts: 4
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From: Germany
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"1. You state you have 3 or 4 SBD units on the island. Why don't you know how many you have? "

Because I wrote it from work and had no access to my PC at home. Stack limit is 5 and one unit was a PBY unit and one unit was the Vindicator unit. So most probably 3 units in the latter attempts. Anyway the first attempt consisted of the said number of SBD units plus two Marauder squadrons, two fighter squadrons.

"2. You state a SBD squadron attacked at night. Is this one of the 3 or 4 of point 1 or a separate squadron making it a total of 4 or 5 SBD units on the island?

The units stationed is a total. A total of which I set one to night attack. When speaking of stationed units I mean units stationed on a base or island or whatsoever regardless of their mission.

"3. When you state that "neither of the day mission (Naval attack, 30-40% search) SBDs rose to the skies" are we to infer the "neither" means 2 squadrons? Together with the night attack of point 2, that would account for all 3 squadrons present (if the lower number of point 1 is the case). Or do you mean no attack in the am or pm phase occurred. "

Night flew, day didn't. Regardless of a unit set to night or not there was no attack by SBDs at daytime. So both is true: 2 units did not fly and 3 units did not fly. The only planes ever flew were those that were set to night attack except when every SBD unit was set to night. Then again no SBD unit flew while the Vindicators did fly.

"4. You state that the SBDs assisted in "slightly crippling" a Bombardment Task Force."

No, I stated slightly crippling a battleship. They scored several bomb hits and caused fires obviously sufficient for him to turn back as there was no further action against him in those turns. I must be precise: in the first attempt there was a mix of surface action and planes fighting against the BB. In the latter attempts there were only planes (including the SBDs) attacking the BB as the BB did not have a chance to come in range of my surface units standing by at the island.

"Firstly, did all the available SBD units attack the Bombardment Task Force? Secondly, just how many times in a turn do you think a bomber unit will launch an attack. The answer is once only except if the mission is a Naval Attack where a second attack may occur under certain conditions. Were these conditions present? If not present, then unless you had unused SBD units of course no attack would be forthcoming on the Air Combat5 Task Force. "

They were all set to Naval Attack.
The Bombardment TF came (and went) on one day when the carrier TF was not in sight or in range. How many of the units went aloft I do not exactly recall, most probably all or the most of them. But I recall them never even flying again when the carrier TF came in sight (or in range) and proceeded toward the island, lingered there (1 hex shouldn't be out of range) and went back. So plenty of turns of possible action after the attack on the BB.

"Other than a brief reference to fiddling with fighter settings, you make no reference of how many friendly fighters are present"

In the first attempt there were 2 squadrons on Midway. Each with between 16 and 18 planes (and, yes, sufficient pilots to man each plane) active. They were set to 50% CAP.

"6. It may, or may not be relevant, but no mention of morale is provided in your colourful narrative."

Yes this I did not pay attention to but an abysmal low morale I certainly would have noticed. I will dive into this later if the turn is still in a savegame.

"Just because you have spotted an enemy Air Combat Task Force inter alia, is no guarantee that it will be the prime target of your bombers."

It was the only enemy TF there couldn't have been more of a prime target than the only target there was. The bombardment TF (as stated above) has retreated and the fleet with the troop ships was already intercepted and decimated by a destroyer task force and never appeared again. An exact Detection Level I did not see in the mouseover, only the numbers of fighters (32), bombers (38) etc. in the TF.

So most probably the fighters in the enemy TF deterred my planes from attacking.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 15
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