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Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Max settings?

 
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Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Max se... - 5/6/2019 7:20:42 AM   
Saulust

 

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In order to save replacement men & equipment for more important combat units you can set some of your units to less than 100% Max TOE on any non-frozen unit as low as down to 20% for Divisions & Brigades and 50% for HQs & Airbases.

You can also set SU Regiments, Btlns and Companies down to 20% also.

It also means you can set the FBDs (which are HQs with 1000 Support Sections in them) to down 50% and just like all other types of support units Construction Groups & Btlns down to 20% as well.

Since you can do such things and reduce the percentage of HQs, Air bases and SUs including construction units, I wonder what is the negative effects of allowing them to reduce over time to lower levels, which I thought did.

With Air bases it seems to be quite linearly set, since they only have a maximum of 250 Support Squads, the 220 Air Support Squads amount needs to cover the demands of the actual airframes that are on the base, if it not enough there are penalties to their Air units on the base, but what about having less than their 30 regular support squads, does that effect the base or planes negatively, like not handle enough delivery of fuel or ammo?

I thought there were negatives, but I don't recall reading what they are and if there are levels of effectiveness with HQs, like its OK to let them fall to 90%, but once it goes down buy more there or penalties or negative effects on their supply handling performance or against their commanding Generals skill points or some such?

What about with the FBDs, does opperating them with either any or significantly lower Support squads in them due to loss over time to a lower Max TOE setting effect how much MP or RRC points they spend to actually repair RR?

What about the Construction Rgmts, Groups & Btlns both in FBDs and Soviet Bgds as well as all the HQ individual ones, are there levels of man power they must have in order to count for RR repair and for entrenchment work?

What about the Fort Bgds themselves, they start with only a few men, but you can set them to only 20% if you want too, but are the penalties to their construction value if you prevent them getting up to 100%?

Similarly, what about the construction value of Engineer / Pioneer Btlns if you set them lower or allow them to drop very low does it reduce their construction value too and what about their Fort reducing value in attacks?


< Message edited by Saulust -- 5/6/2019 7:23:18 AM >
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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/6/2019 8:12:20 AM   
fritzfarlig


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I read all under 75% are no sense to put in combat

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/6/2019 9:25:54 AM   
morvael


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I think the most important rule is actual %TOE + morale must be greater than 100 for the unit to be combat ready. This means you have to keep lower morale units at higher MAXTOE in order not to let them fall into unreadiness.
Shortage of support squads (and most units have less support squads than their support need) will result in more losses (elements becoming damaged or damaged elements becoming lost instead of repaired due to inadequate support). The same applies to aircraft and air support squads.
Construction value is directly tied to number of elements present (each element generates some construction value), so less elements means less construction value.
RRV (from this come MP of FBD/NKPS units) is directly tied into actual %TOE of the rail repair unit.
Number of support squads in HQ divided by 1000 is your chance to get bonus +1 to leader admin skill during admin rolls, so less squads means lower chance to get this bonus (also, you have less support squads to lend to units under HQ, which again will increase your losses).

As you can see you can free a lot of manpower this way, but you will suffer greatly. In time this will have a major impact on your forces. Obviously you may desperately need some extra manpower, so the choice is yours.

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/6/2019 1:47:26 PM   
Telemecus


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Another one to add to the list - if you set the max ToE for an air base to 50%, it will only get 50% of the fuel it would have got during logistics compared to 100%. So if you put a bomber on an airbase with 50% max ToE, you will be disappointed at the levels of fuel the airbase will have next turn.

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/6/2019 5:47:39 PM   
Saulust

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Another one to add to the list - if you set the max ToE for an air base to 50%, it will only get 50% of the fuel it would have got during logistics compared to 100%. So if you put a bomber on an airbase with 50% max ToE, you will be disappointed at the levels of fuel the airbase will have next turn.


Yeah I didn't think it was a good idea to lower Max TOE% setting levels on Airbases tbh.

I am mainly asking about HQs and SUs is it a good idea for them?

So say setting HQs to 90% so that most replacement go straight into your combat units for example, what about at 85% or 75%, are there levels that impact too negatively their supply draw, or pass down or reduce CO skill points?

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/6/2019 6:04:32 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Saulust
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Another one to add to the list - if you set the max ToE for an air base to 50%, it will only get 50% of the fuel it would have got during logistics compared to 100%. So if you put a bomber on an airbase with 50% max ToE, you will be disappointed at the levels of fuel the airbase will have next turn.


Yeah I didn't think it was a good idea to lower Max TOE% setting levels on Airbases tbh.

I am mainly asking about HQs and SUs is it a good idea for them?

So say setting HQs to 90% so that most replacement go straight into your combat units for example, what about at 85% or 75%, are there levels that impact too negatively their supply draw, or pass down or reduce CO skill points?


Well I think it may be worthwhile on German recon bases say, and especially ones that withdraw like 11th army recon base.

On map units that withdraw need to be above 75% to withdraw - but you can try to get closer to that than 100%

There used to be a tip of choking your HQ ToEs to 93% say, as they were equally effective at 91% or 100% - but that was removed by a patch (I think by Morvael). So now any reduction in ToE on an HQ will reduce the effectiveness of the HQ. Whether it is better to have the manpower in the HQs making their units better, or just having the manpower in the units is a difficult choice. But the consensus from others is there is no point trying to reduce manpower HQs anymore - it is just robbing Peter to pay Paul. Again some HQs that are leaving soon may not be worth keeping high. And some HQs (like RHG commands) might also not be worth it.

Again any SUs that withdraw I set on 20% ToE max - unlike onmap units they do not remain in the game even if their ToE is under 75%. Personally in 1941 as Axis I put all SUs that take arms points to build to 20% max ToE - you will have a shortage of arms points in the blizzard and will need them to rebuild your infantry divisions, not artillery regiments. Remember being on a maximum of 20% does not mean they will be at 20%, just they will not receive any replacements. You will still have a lot of those SUs left with a lot in them. Once the arms point crunch eases you can start to ease up on the ToE maximums. For the SUs that do not need arms points (they use AFVs for example) you may want to check the pools. If you have an empty pool, at least turn your worst units of that kind down to 20%. For places like Finland that have manpower shortages you may want to choke bad infantry units and build up their artillery instead. For expensive SUs - like those super heavy artillery guns - you may want to reduce their ToEs to 20% -once they are used for Leningrad or Sevastopol they may not be used again. And given how expensive they are they might not be the best use of points anyway (possibly)?



< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/6/2019 6:14:17 PM >

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/6/2019 6:12:14 PM   
morvael


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On the other hand if a withdrawing on map unit is low on strength the game will keep it on the map, frozen and on refit for 6 turns. The game does not allow you to keep the manpower for yourself and return a shell to the OBW :-)

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/6/2019 7:06:20 PM   
Saulust

 

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Thanks Morvael, but I thought if it was 85% it was OK for withdrawing units to leave, may be after one turn spent on the edge of the map, but I really haven't bothered to watch them in a while.

Firstly, in regards to the Soviet starting 8 RR Construction Bgds in STAVKA HQ they are set to 91% MAX TOE% with Morales ranging between 45 and 60. I don't know if the AI ever changes their Max setting back to 100% or not, but I am certain that most Soviet Human players would never be bothered to changing it to 100% themselves for the most part. So I would assume that most of the time those have remained set at only 91% in most games (under Human control at least only, probably AI control too I'm sure) without suffering a penalty where these original 8 Soviet RR Construction Bgds are not being able to perform RR repairs on hexes that they are auto-deployed to singularly. Actually at least I know I have left them at 91% myself when playing as Soviets against the dumb AI Axis and seen them started RR repairs on T3!

In regards to Construction Btlns/Groups in the FBDs, I think there is a certain number of Labour men or squads you need to have for them to work the RRC magic at all, I'm guessing like how the 4000 garrison minimum amount is needed for occupation of cities to prevent spawning or adding heavily to Partisans.

The make up of the starting four FBDs have equivalent of 10 Btlns worth of 36 squads of Labour which shows 15 RRC values.

As you remove Btlns, Detachments (Abteilungs) and Groups (double sized Btln groups) you start to see a drop in their RRV figure. Conversely if you add Construction Labour Btlns etc to the FBDs you will see their RRC go up. I don't see it changing 100% linearly, but it is close. While this seems more to do with the number of actual Btlns worth counted by Labour men or squads I don't yet know, however I am wondering what would happen or negative effects if those Labour Btlns were much lowered in their head count of men and or Labour squads.

Some 16 of the German Construction RAD Lbr Det start set short by a Labour Squad at 98% and there are two 'OT' Construction Btlns (one in FBD 2) set Max TOE% of 89% with 32 out of 36 Labour Squads, but this just like the Russians does mean that these Btlns or FBD 2 seem to function any less at RR repair. How many German Human players have ever changed their setting to 100% Max TOE in games?

So it seems that the number of men or Labour Squads doesn't need to be exactly at 100% for these Btlns/Bgds or for the FBDs they are in to function properly, but I am trying to find out a minimum limit here. Perhaps could it have to do with their current TOE% of Labour manpower or Squads plus the units Morale which is mostly 40 for all the German RR Construction SUs?

< Message edited by Saulust -- 5/6/2019 7:12:28 PM >

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/6/2019 7:45:57 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Saulust
Some 16 of the German Construction RAD Lbr Det start set short by a Labour Squad at 98% and there are two 'OT' Construction Btlns (one in FBD 2) set Max TOE% of 89% with 32 out of 36 Labour Squads, but this just like the Russians does mean that these Btlns or FBD 2 seem to function any less at RR repair. How many German Human players have ever changed their setting to 100% Max TOE in games?


Yes in blizzard in particular you will find low ToEs of construction and the FBD will lead to fewer MPs and RRV. So at some level or below some threshold increasing ToEs does help.

What I have started to do as Axis is put all German contruction units to 20% on turn 1 and keep directly assigning construction units to FBDs when their already assigned ones get low ToEs. Doing it more by impressions than calculated formulas for the moment and there are limits to how many you can assign. I find by the time the ToEs of the other construction units gets low, there is not a lot of rail repair or assistance in fort building to do anyway. Others then disband construction units, I find this way you can save the points by not having to.



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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/6/2019 8:17:03 PM   
morvael


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What I like to do is to use actual %TOE as MAXTOE setting (so units do not draw extra replacements), and go from there. Drastic measures usually aren't safe in the long run. Most people see only the immediate gains, but not the long term losses, that may be less pronounced. In next version support units will be much better at building forts, so they may become very useful on defense.

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/6/2019 8:34:17 PM   
Saulust

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Yes in blizzard in particular you will find low ToEs of construction and the FBD will lead to fewer MPs and RRV. So at some level or below some threshold increasing ToEs does help.

What I have started to do as Axis is put all German contruction units to 20% on turn 1 ...


I said most German players, not the experts... like you!

I think at most an FBD is only ever going to need 12 RRV while doing your RR repairs for the 1st 17 turns and again in clear weather beyond '41. I think it could be less during the mud and winter since it costs more to move, so less MP for RRV conversion.

Wow, setting them all to 20% on T1, BTW I thought the FBDs were like Army HQs and had a max of 24 SUs allowed, at least before penalties...?

< Message edited by Saulust -- 5/6/2019 9:47:50 PM >

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/7/2019 9:00:56 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Saulust

I said most German players, not the experts... like you!

I think at most an FBD is only ever going to need 12 RRV while doing your RR repairs for the 1st 17 turns and again in clear weather beyond '41. I think it could be less during the mud and winter since it costs more to move, so less MP for RRV conversion.

Wow, setting them all to 20% on T1, BTW I thought the FBDs were like Army HQs and had a max of 24 SUs allowed, at least before penalties...?


Thanks! Experts of today, in my case, are amateurs just repeating what the experts said yesterday!

The other problem is that fewer SUs directly assigned to the FBDs does not only reduce RRV but also reduces movement points. Why this is I do not understand - that is not how I read the manual? So I have examples where an FBD had 12 movement points, say, and adding construction boosts the movement points. This means during blizzard the real constraint to FBDs, often, is not RRV but movement points per se.

Remember setting them to max 20% does mean they actually get to 20% ToE - it just means they do not get replacements. As they are usually not in combat their manpower decreases only very slowly. If a construction unit starts on 100% ToE and is kept on 20% max ToE, it is very likely it will still have its ToE in the 90s come 1942. Morvael made a good point above that if you do this you have to check them every turn for any special disasters - it is not a setting you can make and then forget for several turns before checking again.

And yes you are right there are limits. But if you start 41 with 9 construction units at 100% ToE - and they go down to around 90% at the end of 1941, then you only need one more construction at 90% to get back to where you were. So at least I think those limits are just too high to worry about. And if you are leaving construction units scattered around HQs doing no rail repair or fort boosting, as I see in many games, then having them in an FBD even with a penalty is better than the nothing alternative.


< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/7/2019 9:56:33 AM >

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/7/2019 9:19:53 AM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

On the other hand if a withdrawing on map unit is low on strength the game will keep it on the map, frozen and on refit for 6 turns. The game does not allow you to keep the manpower for yourself and return a shell to the OBW :-)


It is good that the game doesn't allow you to return divisions that are completely depleted to the OBW because that would be gamey but I think that the max TOE for the withdrawing units is set far too high. Maybe it should be lowered to 75% or variations of it. In WITW all divisions you receive from the East, save for some arrive at 50% TOE, which is quite fair. Units that were pulled off the front had usually been decimated in combat and were sent for R&R in the West.

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/7/2019 9:35:37 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
The other problem is that fewer SUs directly assigned to the FBDs does not only reduce RRV but also reduces movement points. Why this is I do not understand - that is not how I read the manual? So I have examples where an FBD had 12 movement points, say, and adding construction boosts the movement points. This means during blizzard the real constraint to FBDs, often, is not RRV but movement points per se.


Previously RRV meant nothing :) FBD/NKPS used MP to repair rail, and had them fixed at 16. So even if you have detached all construction units from them, and reduced their TOE to 20% they were as good as before at rail repair. This had to stop, so finally I tied MPs of those units to their RRV.

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/7/2019 9:37:39 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
It is good that the game doesn't allow you to return divisions that are completely depleted to the OBW because that would be gamey but I think that the max TOE for the withdrawing units is set far too high. Maybe it should be lowered to 75% or variations of it. In WITW all divisions you receive from the East, save for some arrive at 50% TOE, which is quite fair. Units that were pulled off the front had usually been decimated in combat and were sent for R&R in the West.


I think actual TOE of 75% is the limit the game accepts as minimum for withdrawal. It just sets MAXTOE to 100% in order to fill those units, as at MAXTOE 75% they would ask for less and thus get even less.

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/7/2019 10:25:12 AM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael


quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
It is good that the game doesn't allow you to return divisions that are completely depleted to the OBW because that would be gamey but I think that the max TOE for the withdrawing units is set far too high. Maybe it should be lowered to 75% or variations of it. In WITW all divisions you receive from the East, save for some arrive at 50% TOE, which is quite fair. Units that were pulled off the front had usually been decimated in combat and were sent for R&R in the West.


I think actual TOE of 75% is the limit the game accepts as minimum for withdrawal. It just sets MAXTOE to 100% in order to fill those units, as at MAXTOE 75% they would ask for less and thus get even less.


I'm not sure that is correct. The units need to be at 85% to be withdrawn. So the game sends the MAXTOE to 85% and keeps them on refit at the edge of the map till they fill up.

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/7/2019 7:25:53 PM   
Denniss

 

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75% should be required to withdraw, if units have less they get a maxtoe of 85% instead of 100% so they won't suck up too many replacements before withdraw

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/7/2019 7:55:41 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

75% should be required to withdraw, if units have less they get a maxtoe of 85% instead of 100% so they won't suck up too many replacements before withdraw


Thanks for the answer Denniss. I'm not sure that is WAD atm. The 900th Lehr Brigade in my game was at around 80% TOE I think and it didn't withdraw as scheduled. It was sent to the edge of the map and set on 85% and withdrew a turn later. Also the 10th Panzer Division is acting in a weird way too. They are on 60% TOE right now and have entered withdrawing stage yet their Max TOE has been capped at 60%. Why? I can provide screenshots for the 10th Panzer Div but can't do that for the 900th Lehr Mot Brigade because it is a server game.

Thanks in advance!

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/7/2019 8:03:50 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
They are on 60% TOE right now and have entered withdrawing stage yet their Max TOE has been capped at 60%. Why?


I know when you enter the withdrawing mode the commanders report will display the last max ToE setting you gave it before it entered withdraw mode. Had you set it to 60% beforehand.

I assumed (??) this was just a presentational thing, but the max ToE it was actually using was 85% (the withdraw default?) regardless of what it displayed (in a different colour from others) in the commanders report?


< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/7/2019 8:04:52 PM >

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/7/2019 10:38:55 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
They are on 60% TOE right now and have entered withdrawing stage yet their Max TOE has been capped at 60%. Why?


I know when you enter the withdrawing mode the commanders report will display the last max ToE setting you gave it before it entered withdraw mode. Had you set it to 60% beforehand.

I assumed (??) this was just a presentational thing, but the max ToE it was actually using was 85% (the withdraw default?) regardless of what it displayed (in a different colour from others) in the commanders report?



It was set to 60% yes. Hmm that could very well be the case. I need to see if the division will receive replacements in the next few weeks.

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/7/2019 11:34:47 PM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saulust
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Another one to add to the list - if you set the max ToE for an air base to 50%, it will only get 50% of the fuel it would have got during logistics compared to 100%. So if you put a bomber on an airbase with 50% max ToE, you will be disappointed at the levels of fuel the airbase will have next turn.


Yeah I didn't think it was a good idea to lower Max TOE% setting levels on Airbases tbh.

I am mainly asking about HQs and SUs is it a good idea for them?

So say setting HQs to 90% so that most replacement go straight into your combat units for example, what about at 85% or 75%, are there levels that impact too negatively their supply draw, or pass down or reduce CO skill points?


Well I think it may be worthwhile on German recon bases say, and especially ones that withdraw like 11th army recon base.

On map units that withdraw need to be above 75% to withdraw - but you can try to get closer to that than 100%

There used to be a tip of choking your HQ ToEs to 93% say, as they were equally effective at 91% or 100% - but that was removed by a patch (I think by Morvael). So now any reduction in ToE on an HQ will reduce the effectiveness of the HQ. Whether it is better to have the manpower in the HQs making their units better, or just having the manpower in the units is a difficult choice. But the consensus from others is there is no point trying to reduce manpower HQs anymore - it is just robbing Peter to pay Paul. Again some HQs that are leaving soon may not be worth keeping high. And some HQs (like RHG commands) might also not be worth it.

Again any SUs that withdraw I set on 20% ToE max - unlike onmap units they do not remain in the game even if their ToE is under 75%. Personally in 1941 as Axis I put all SUs that take arms points to build to 20% max ToE - you will have a shortage of arms points in the blizzard and will need them to rebuild your infantry divisions, not artillery regiments. Remember being on a maximum of 20% does not mean they will be at 20%, just they will not receive any replacements. You will still have a lot of those SUs left with a lot in them. Once the arms point crunch eases you can start to ease up on the ToE maximums. For the SUs that do not need arms points (they use AFVs for example) you may want to check the pools. If you have an empty pool, at least turn your worst units of that kind down to 20%. For places like Finland that have manpower shortages you may want to choke bad infantry units and build up their artillery instead. For expensive SUs - like those super heavy artillery guns - you may want to reduce their ToEs to 20% -once they are used for Leningrad or Sevastopol they may not be used again. And given how expensive they are they might not be the best use of points anyway (possibly)?




In section 11.3.1 in the updated manual it states you lose 1 admin point for every 10% where the HQ TOE is below maximum. ie don't go below 90% Is this still current?

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RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/8/2019 12:02:03 AM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saulust
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Another one to add to the list - if you set the max ToE for an air base to 50%, it will only get 50% of the fuel it would have got during logistics compared to 100%. So if you put a bomber on an airbase with 50% max ToE, you will be disappointed at the levels of fuel the airbase will have next turn.


Yeah I didn't think it was a good idea to lower Max TOE% setting levels on Airbases tbh.

I am mainly asking about HQs and SUs is it a good idea for them?

So say setting HQs to 90% so that most replacement go straight into your combat units for example, what about at 85% or 75%, are there levels that impact too negatively their supply draw, or pass down or reduce CO skill points?


Well I think it may be worthwhile on German recon bases say, and especially ones that withdraw like 11th army recon base.

On map units that withdraw need to be above 75% to withdraw - but you can try to get closer to that than 100%

There used to be a tip of choking your HQ ToEs to 93% say, as they were equally effective at 91% or 100% - but that was removed by a patch (I think by Morvael). So now any reduction in ToE on an HQ will reduce the effectiveness of the HQ. Whether it is better to have the manpower in the HQs making their units better, or just having the manpower in the units is a difficult choice. But the consensus from others is there is no point trying to reduce manpower HQs anymore - it is just robbing Peter to pay Paul. Again some HQs that are leaving soon may not be worth keeping high. And some HQs (like RHG commands) might also not be worth it.

Again any SUs that withdraw I set on 20% ToE max - unlike onmap units they do not remain in the game even if their ToE is under 75%. Personally in 1941 as Axis I put all SUs that take arms points to build to 20% max ToE - you will have a shortage of arms points in the blizzard and will need them to rebuild your infantry divisions, not artillery regiments. Remember being on a maximum of 20% does not mean they will be at 20%, just they will not receive any replacements. You will still have a lot of those SUs left with a lot in them. Once the arms point crunch eases you can start to ease up on the ToE maximums. For the SUs that do not need arms points (they use AFVs for example) you may want to check the pools. If you have an empty pool, at least turn your worst units of that kind down to 20%. For places like Finland that have manpower shortages you may want to choke bad infantry units and build up their artillery instead. For expensive SUs - like those super heavy artillery guns - you may want to reduce their ToEs to 20% -once they are used for Leningrad or Sevastopol they may not be used again. And given how expensive they are they might not be the best use of points anyway (possibly)?




In section 11.3.1 in the updated manual it states you lose 1 admin point for every 10% where the HQ TOE is below maximum. ie don't go below 90% Is this still current?


Yes that is the case. You should aim to keep your HQs operating at 100% TOE in order to avoid suffering an admin roll penalty.

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(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 22
RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/8/2019 12:31:27 AM   
Saulust

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
Previously RRV meant nothing :) FBD/NKPS used MP to repair rail, and had them fixed at 16. So even if you have detached all construction units from them, and reduced their TOE to 20% they were as good as before at rail repair. This had to stop, so finally I tied MPs of those units to their RRV.


But Morvael, RRV may now be tied to MP of the FBDs, but there is some modicum of voodoo here with how this works still, it will be appreciated if you could enlighten further please?

My main concern ATM is the RR repair ability of the Construction SUs, but if the Max TOE% effects fortification entrenchment performance that would be good to cover too, thanks.

I will say that in this thread it has been established that construction SU do fuction (apparently) at RR repair while at less than 100% TOE.

So, what is happening under the hood with construction SUs:

Is it linear though, at 90% TOE, it performs at up to 90%, 80% at 80%, 75% at 75%, etc and is this moderated or enhanced by Morale in the way that UNREADY state is?

In FBDs and the 1st Rumanian RR Command unit both RRV and MP are tied to the number of Const SUs, but that isn't exactly linear though, nor are these two figures in sync with each other, what number of const SUs variations determines their final fugures?

(Some FBDs start with more Const SUs than others but have the same MP & RRV while adding or subtracting one or two changes MP & RRV figures differently, obviously MP tops out at 16, but RRV can jump 2 points with one Const SU change, how come?)

The 1st Rum RR Cmd starts with only 5 Const SU Btlns, which you can add the 4 from AG Antonescu HQ, but only the first two you add bumps up the MP by 1 & RRV to from 9 to 10, the next two do nothing but increase man power, no more 1 bump in MP & RRV, why?

Is the ability of Const SU Btlns reduced from less than effective when they're out on own auto-deployed from HQs at lower levels of TOE% or based off number of actually ready/fit Labour Squads, such that if they fall below a point they are too cut down and wont be able to do 100% RR repair themselves as a single unit?

(Hence why you see them doubled up on Hexes! And when do they start to need to do that?)

How does terrain or ground weather conditions effect them apart from MP costs with RR repairs and fortification digging in terms of reduced TOE% or ready Labour squads?

The main reason I am asking is that I want to set all the Const SU TOE% to a number less than 100% so that I send my replacement man power to combat units as a full priority over them. So far it looks like I can do that, say at something reasonable like 90% or 75% and forget about worrying about them over the long term or at least until the blizzard. I just want to be sure if I can do that over a long game too and be able to successfully RR repair with slightly depleted Const SUs both from HQs and in FBDs especially for Summer '42 and to easily cover partisan damage to the Railnet behind the lines, etc. However if I ran them down to 75% will I need to count them as 4 to 3 at 67% 3 to 2 effectively or if I let them slip to 50% will I always need double?

When you build more Construction SUs as the Soviets you create them as cadre shells that you can set their Max TOE% so how they function at 90%, 75% , 67%, 50%, or 20% matters if you can do that especially since I build up to 40 of them, so I would like to know if I can save Man power this way or not?

Also as the Soviets I wonder if you need to ever change the starting 8 Const SUs in STAVKA HQ on T1 from Max TOE of 91% or if you can just completely get away with just forever leaving these set at 91%?

Cheers.

< Message edited by Saulust -- 5/8/2019 1:53:14 AM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 23
RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/8/2019 7:14:57 AM   
morvael


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MP of on-map rail repair units is capped at 16.
Extra construction units will be helpful only in winter, when their construction value drops and they generate less RRV.
Some units get a special bonus to their construction value for the purposes of rail repair, hence they have big impact on RRV, and would be best kept at FBD/NKPS/RR Command (those that contain "R.A.D.", "O.T.", and "RR Construction" get x9 multiplier).
Other than that every element is a possible source of construction value, which should result in more effective fortification building and rail repair (when sent alone from normal HQ, or when helping to generate RRV for on-map rail repair units.
There is no hard cap at some predetermined %TOE value, you have less men in those units, they should perform poorly. Sure, when this translates to just 1-16 MP of the on-map rail repair units it's possible to optimize this a bit, mostly by moving out units that contribute less (so those without special name), while still keep high MP (but beware of winter).

(in reply to Saulust)
Post #: 24
RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/8/2019 8:40:44 AM   
Telemecus


Posts: 3225
Joined: 3/20/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax
In section 11.3.1 in the updated manual it states you lose 1 admin point for every 10% where the HQ TOE is below maximum. ie don't go below 90% Is this still current?


I understand that used to be correct - but no longer is. (I guess by admin you are referring to ratings here, not admin points?) This was because of a patch change by Morvael. The old exploit was specifically to reduce the ToEs to as close to 90% as possible without going below, so you needed some sort of margin above for the few losses in the turn before the logistics phase. So I used to set them at 93% on the understanding that this (almost) guaranteed they never went below 90% in logisitcs and were always 100% effective. The description given by Morvael was that he patched this specifically to stop that exploit, and now any reduction below 100%, however small, would reduce the effectiveness. The lesson being do not aim to reduce HQ ToEs below 100%. However I have not checked on the formula or tracked which patch that change was made on. Perhaps someone else knows?


< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/8/2019 8:42:56 AM >

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 25
RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/8/2019 9:00:09 AM   
morvael


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I think manual was never correct. The chance to get bonus +1 to admin rolls was always (number of support squads in hq / 1000), and I didn't invent that.

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 26
RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/8/2019 11:10:11 AM   
Saulust

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 8/25/2018
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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
...
Some units get a special bonus to their construction value for the purposes of rail repair, hence they have big impact on RRV, and would be best kept at FBD/NKPS/RR Command (those that contain "R.A.D.", "O.T.", and "RR Construction" get x9 multiplier).
...
There is no hard cap at some predetermined %TOE value, you have less men in those units, they should perform poorly. Sure, ...


Thank you very much Morvael, 'X' niner'! OK then, but this leads me to ask what exactly is the base amount of RRV generated by these special Const SUs that this x9 multiplier is a bonus to for RRV repair?

Is this x9 multiplier bonus only important for SUs in FBDs or will it also ultimately matter with them when they are in HQs auto-deploying on their own to Hexes repairing RR damage?


There are at a quick glance 166 German Construction SUs and 4 starting FBDs, plus the 5th FBD which arrives on Turn 48 14/May/'42 with its compliment of 2x of Road Const, 2x OT Const & 2x RAD Lbr Grps.

Of the starting 166 SUs there are 12 double sized Grps at 72 Labour Squads max TOE which you are saying that apart from being double sized also attain this x9 multiplier for RRV.

There are 34 Det/Btlns of special ability RR SUs (16x RAD Lbr Abteilung & 18 "OT" Const Btlns) all at 36 Labour Squads max TOE with this x9 bonus to RRV repair too.

The rest of the 120 German starting Construntion SUs are either Road or just plain vanilla Const Btlns with a basic or base of 1 amount of construction/RR repair abilities but which seems to be enough most of the time. Since AFAIK even with sub 100% max TOE for these "C' Bns" to work at RR repair from HQs at least in Summer.


There still seems to be a quite a little bit of voodoo here in the FBDs, but after playing around a bit more with them it seems that 'sometimes' 3 plain Const SUs amount to 1 RRV point, but sometimes not though somehow, so quite frankly they are not at all really worth putting or leaving in FBDs, but OTOPH you have no real choice with what to do with them in the Rum 1st Railroad Const Command, since 9 Rum Btlns is all you've got, but I suspect that the 5 that actually start off in it have a small RRV bonus of some type, still though I find that these Rum Const SUs are not entirely linear that I can work out ATM.

OTOH both the RAD Lbr Det & "OT" Btlns seem to count as 2 points of RRV while the double sized Lbr Grp counts as 4 RRV, but I am not sure if large TOE reductions will reduce this however.


At least I know now it would be best to remove the Road & vanilla Const Btln SUs from the FBDs.


ATM it seems like a good idea to me to just put the 2 of the 12 double sized Lbr Grps into the FBDs that start off assigned to Army HQs at the start of the GC in AGM, getting 3 per FBD and only putting or leaving two RAD Det or OT Btlns in each of them as effective configurations, any suggestions otherwise?

I am wondering though should I concentrate the remaining 26 of these special x9 effective RAD Lbr Det & OT Const Btlns at OKH or in the 3 RHG HQs or a combination to ensure these best RR repair German Const SUs are prioritise for their 'special' x9 bonus.

I was setting the 3 RHG HQs to 50% Max TOE%, but do I now need to have them back at 100% so they properly or adequately support & supply their own batches of assigned 'special' RRV bonus SUs if I want to employ them as kind of mini FBDs?


As to the topic of their Max TOE percentage I am now thinking that I would like to just set them all to 67% Max TOE for the game and call it a day, unless there are either significant RR repair ability or fortification digging negative penalties.
(Perhaps because these 'special' bonus SUs provide double or quadruple RRV, may be these I could set to 50% and 25% Max TOE respectively!)

With all this discussion about regular HQs which I am also interested in, I am still not sure about the 1000 Support Section FBDs themselves, they are only really there supplying and supporting the SUs contained in themselves. How will allowing them to drop down to various percentage amounts effect their on map MP and RRV?

< Message edited by Saulust -- 5/8/2019 12:12:30 PM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 27
RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/9/2019 9:45:52 AM   
Telemecus


Posts: 3225
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I think manual was never correct. The chance to get bonus +1 to admin rolls was always (number of support squads in hq / 1000), and I didn't invent that.


I am still unclear on this. Does this mean the admin rating is never reduced or penalised? But it has the die roll of (number of support squads in hq / 1000) to actually be increased or have a bonus to it of +1. This would also mean that if STAVKA,say, had 1000 support squads there would be no benefit to having one more?

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 28
RE: Are there negative effects to less than 100% TOE Ma... - 5/9/2019 12:00:01 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11427
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
I think I have posted details of leader rolls with as much detail as possible several times (copied from my post on a dev forum). There are all details.

As I said the chance to get this bonus +1 to leader admin skill is based on the number of support squads in his hq divided by 1000. So top-level HQ with 1000 squads should always pass this test and grant this bonus. A corps with 250 squads has only 25% chance to grant this bonus, and so on. Reducing support squads linearly lowers your chance to pass that test. That's quite simple. So even one squad less results in a lower chance to get this bonus.

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 29
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