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RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 7:16:26 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 119
Joined: 7/5/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles

Hanny you are hiding from me, which of your 4 Motor gas fuels are for what uses, You are happy to write hundreds and hundreds of words about me personally but you wont answer a simple question, either answer it or admit you are a lying fraud.



I made clear to you this is not a debate, nor am i here do your research for you, esp when your too incompetent to read your own links content.

You referred to captured use of fuel, i pointed out its limitations. I should add commercial petrol in Russia was again different and not usable from the pumps unlike as had been the case in France. Because your ignorant, you think this a lie, just as you do with anyone you disagree with on anything. So, i gave up giving you that information and told you to read your own links, that contain the information i just imparted to you so you could inform yourself. What the varies types of fuels were used for is not relavent to the point they existed and put limitations of captured use, but you still claim im lying.

(in reply to Shalkai)
Post #: 151
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 7:18:13 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 119
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline



quote:

ORIGINAL: Shalkai
No, it doesn't spell out exact uses for each fuel type. However, I can clarify with likely uses. You can research further if desired. B100 - 100 octane, hi-test aviation grade. B78 - 78 octane, hi-test motor grade (well, sorta middle grade) usable in high compression engines - cars and high-power trucks/AFVs. B70 - 70 octane, low-test suitable for low compression engines like gas tractors and most trucks. KB70 - not sure on this; at a guess it might be gas/oil mix suitable for 2-cycle engines (motorcycle, generator, etc.). Or KB70 might be diesel, which Soviets used more than most other nations.





K refers to the cracking methodology of production. so KB70 is derived from a cracking process. B refers to Bakau crude oil G would be crude from Grozny. The crude from each refinery was different. Common for T70 models to use.

B-70 and benzols and isooctanes (passing under the name gasoline light in the Soviet supply list)

The following mixtures were prepared from them: Producing B-70: 1B- 70, 2B-70, 3B-70, 4B-70. Each has a different octane value.

Mixture No. 1:
60% B-70, 20% isooctane and 20% neohexane.

Mixture No. 2:
60% B-70, 20% alkylbenzene and 20% neohexane.

Mixture No. 3:
60% B-70, 32% isooctane and 8% isopentane.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Shalkai
Power drops, you get engine knock (pinging) which can damage the motor, and again risk clogged carburetors and fouled spark plug problems. No handy tune-up shops open seven days a week in a war zone.


Antiknock additives (ethyl gum). Two main ethyl gum were used:
R-9: Tetraethyl lead (TPP) - 55%, ethyl bromide - 35%, monochloronaphthalene - 10%, red dye - 1.5g. for 1 liter
B-20: identical, but dichloroethane is contained instead of ethyl bromide and monochloronaphthalene. The fluid is blue. It is a substitute for R-9 and is used in case of its absence.
The antiknock properties of both fluids are identical, but it is preferable to use P-9 as a less polluting engine plug. Added from 1-4 cubic meters. see ethyl fluid per 1 kg of gasoline. Accordingly, in the designation 2B-70, the first digit is just the number of cubic meters. see per kilogram of gasoline. Add more than 4 cm cube. ethyl fluid per kilogram of gasoline is impractical because octane gain is sharply reduced.


(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 152
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 7:27:51 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 119
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shalkai

Very good, thank you chuckfourth - your post shows the detail needed to isolate why our experiences are at odds, and why your Turn 3 fuel levels are so much lower than the ones I see in my own games.

Simply put, your corps HQs are over 20 hexes from rail head on Turn 3, which is caused by retreating all Soviet units so that Panzer divisions can be moved the maximum distance eastwards on Turn 2.

This is a situation where Panzer divisions are a bit further east than historically achieved, but not much. It is also unusual (though certainly possible) for Panzers to advance so far on Turn 2 without meeting any Soviet stragglers that need a hasty attack to free clear terrain hexes of ZOC. In both of our examples, panzer divs are farther east than historical results, so we need to look further to find the cause of the discrepancy.

In real life, supply throughput decreases as an exponential curve the farther supplies have to travel. In WitE, this is approximated through several linear functions, but there is a discontinuity in the decrease when the immediate HQ goes from 20 to 21 hexes away from railhead.

I haven't run an actual test game, but I can state that I do not see these very low supply levels (I see 30-40 MP) for two reasons - first, I keep corps HQ within 20 hexes of railhead, and second, my railheads are farther east.

Examples:
"XXXXI panzer corps is east of Tallinn on the gulf of Riga the three divisions have 9, 15 and 14 MPs. They are just within 5 hexes of their HQ. Corps HQ is within 4 hexes of 4th panzer group HQ Rail has been repaired as far as Siauliai so 4th panzer group HQ is 18 hexes from railhead, XXXXI panzer corps is 22 from the railhead."
This places your corps HQ at about hex 65,20 which is 22 hexes from Siailuai. (Note that 4th PzG HQ being 18 hexes from rail doesn't help the corps or divisions get fuel). In my games, the railhead is a few hexes further NE, near Jelgava. My HQ, if in the same spot, would be within 20 hexes of rail, so both corps and divs would get normal supply, not isolated. Even if my railhead was at Siauliai, I would simply place my HQ at say 64,22. This might require my panzers to be a hex or two behind where yours are - but they'd have 30+ MP to play with on Turn 3.


"XXXXVI panzer corps is just west of the Dnepr on the northeastern corner of the Pripet marshes its two divisions and one regiment have 12 12 4 MPs respectively. They are in friendly connected territory and within 5 hexes of their corps HQ. Corps HQ is 24 hexes form Pruzhany where the railhead is."
Pruzhany is at 55,66. 24 hexes east places your HQ around 77,62.
In my last start, my Turn 3 railhead was at 59,50 just W of Vilnius. Corps HQ was at 76,54 - so 19 hexes from rail. Divisions were five more hexes east, with a bridgehead in normal supply actually east of the Dnepr river.

Bottom line: You have exceeded a threshold coded into WitE, where the game's imperfect model delivers imperfect results. This suggests two questions:
1. Can the supply model in the game be improved? The answer is no in WitE (engine changes not practical), but yes in the forthcoming WitE2.
2. Can the supply model in the game be maximized through better play to avoid exceeding limititation in the code? The answer is yes, through a combination of maximizing railhead advancement and/or ensuring that corps HQ units do not suffer isolation penalties.


Excellent analysis, i would add the movement points between nodes, not just counting hexes to make sure the step change of 20 is not breached, is an important point to remember for supply optimisation.

(in reply to Shalkai)
Post #: 153
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 7:43:50 AM   
Hanny


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Joined: 7/5/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

Tell me now, what is the problem with the system?


System works better/detailed than any other game i have seen. The options menu gives user the ability to tailor the logistics to there own preference.

Problem is not the system but the operator.

(in reply to xhoel)
Post #: 154
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 7:47:46 AM   
Shalkai

 

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Good point, Hanny. More than one way to get isolated from supply. Off Rail MP cost is usually the limiting factor in certain areas of the map (E of Lake Ladoga, and of course the Pripyat Marshes are prime examples). MP cost is also the noose that strangles during mud and blizzard. Since we were working on a pared-down analysis that eventually just focused on Axis Turn 2 so we could compare apples to apples, I didn't complicate it by adding that other factor into the discussion. Boy howdy did I sure notice it during my first full game, years ago! Took me a couple turns to figure out why my manpower and morale levels were dropping like a rock. LOL!

I greatly appreciate the further details about Russian gasoline grades and additives. I'm not a petrochemical engineer, and even trying to google some of that stuff was way more time than I had to spend. Now I know more than most people about Eastern Front fuel production and grades. But way less than you do!

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 155
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/7/2019 8:42:58 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 119
Joined: 7/5/2011
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Congrats to xhoel and Shalkai for identifying the in game problem, now back to our regular schedule.


(in reply to Shalkai)
Post #: 156
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/12/2019 4:06:25 AM   
chuckfourth

 

Posts: 180
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Red lancer that article is in no way a justification for moving the Baltic boundary any more than light mechanical tank damage is a justification for nerfing German supply.
This is what you are actually saying. Whether or not a particular rail line is inside or outside the Baltic zone is determined by WHEN it was repaired, not by which SIDE of the border it was, really!?
Just because they didn't fix a section of railway doesn't mean it's Russian railway, which is what you are saying here. Its still Baltic railway whether they fix it in 41 or 44. You have removed the Germans ability to fix that piece of line at the correct historical (Baltic) rate because why? they didn't do it quick enough for you historically? It makes no sense. To me this is just the latest example of how the German player is in an inappropriate ahistorical straightjacket in this game. It seems to me that as its been developed to include every little factor that disadvantages the Germans, Baltic boundary and super forts for example and ignore everything that helps the Germans like super guns, or use of captured Russian fuel dumps. I mean how can you even think about deploying superforts without even considering superguns. Mistakes like this make me think the game is not in good hands.

Ok so I'm pursuing fuel for this reason. Hanky and Morvael both subscribe to the ridiculous proposition that you need to have half your transport convoy composed of fuel trucks to go long distances. This is their justification for the drop in supply delivered after 10 hexes.
Right so
First the Germans SET UP PETROL STATIONS.
Second they had petrol tanker convoys
Third they could use Russian fuel.
Some of the German trucks used diesel, these trucks could happily run on captured Russian diesel of which I'm sure they captured plenty.
KB70 and B70 is Russian fuel for their aircraft and light tanks, the Russians had a lot of both. 70 is the octane rating. The German army ran on 70-74 octane so this fuel CAN be pumped straight into the German vehicles.
Ok now this is already acknowledged by giving the Germans fuel when they capture a HQ, good. But they should also get a captured allocation of fuel when they capture a city.
So when Hanky said this
"all mogas had a far lower octane level than western European engines could run on and required additives to bring the octane level up high enough to use in engines."
Using the word all makes this a bald faced LIE because KB70 and B70 are the same octane level as German fuel. It can be pumped straight into a German engine.
Hanky also says
"German MTV and Russian MTV used different grades of fuel, they were not interchangeable, each destroys the others engines. In Russia you cant use captured fuel stocks until its been converted to the same fuel grade."
Wrong again Hanky, German MTV and Russian light tanks used the SAME grade of fuel, KB70 and B70. So another bald faced LIE.
You CAN put low octane gas (Russian) in a high octane engine (German) the engine loses power and the fuel can ignite early giving knocking but it still runs. It doesn't necessarily destroy the engine. This depends on how different the ideal and actual octane levels are and the engine itself. Don't forget an engine will run just fine on a quite wide range of fuel octane levels
And here's something I found very interesting from Van Creveld no less.
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=209233
"Fuel consumption by both armored groups was very high, but could be met because that of ammunition was correspondingly low, and because Panzergruppe 2 made a TIMELY DISCOVERY OF A LARGE RUSSIAN RESEVIOUR near Baranovichi."
Hanky note this is in JUNE 41. In the game the Germans cannot find any large Russian reservoirs near anywhere. But here we have an example of a whole Panzergruppe finding enough RUSSIAN FUEL to run on.
The German supply clearly needs to be loosened up to reflect the overall effect of being able to USE SOVIET FUEL and drain large quantities of food and fodder out of captured cities.
Oh and just a point on etiquette for you Hanky here's something you said,
'Soviet account: from "Technical Support of Armored Forces in the Vistula-Oder Operation" is that they could not use captured enemy fuel dumps until they had been tested for octane rating, water contamination, type of fuel, etc which was done by the Army laboratory but took some time to find out if the fuel was usable. '
You lifted this word for word straight out of
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=226225
with no acknowledgment that you lifted it from that article and the whole thing should be in quotes not just the title, that plagiarism my friend. You presented this as though you had read the reference and they were you words, but you copied it. So what other stuff have you made up? seems you are a liar and a thief. or maybe a just leave it at lying thief.
How about we take a reality check?
Rommel's nearest port was Brengazi its about 300 miles (30 hexes) behind the front line and its linked to the front line by a SINGLE road in the desert where there is nothing. According to the game rules at this distance Rommel gets NO SUPPLY. ZERO, NADA, ZILCH, because in the game you can't run a truck convoy further than 260 miles In reality Panzer Army Africa kept 10 divisions supplied 300 miles away from this small port ie railhead.
The single road from Tripoli, the main port where most of the supplies came from is 900, read it again 900 miles 90 hexes, away from the front line. They ran regular truck convoys along this road all the time. If you apply Hankys congestion calculations to this scenario you get a road train that goes twice around the world, if you apply his fuel usage calculations to this scenario each truck convoy has to tow the Exon Valdez behind as it goes along. This game has been crippled by inflated supply requirements and nerfed supply abilities, the accountants are in charge, The cut and thrust of blitzkrieg is missing.
I pointed all this out a year ago and nothing has been done.

Why ever would you apply a bit of commonsense to a problem when you can use Hankys convoluted rubbish.

Congratulations Xhoel you have actually managed to sound more hysterical than Hanky
Xhoel you pretend like there is no problem with German supply, so why is it being rewritten for WIET2 then? Answer because it doesn't work in WITE1.

Shalkai I looked at your links but I still cannot understand how to fix more that 6 railway hexes a turn to get to Jelgava in two turns. Can you explain how that is done?
You also said this
"no they would not be able to immediately (within 72 hours) use it" Of course the mistake you make here is that the turns are a week so they have a week to 'use' it in.

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 157
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/12/2019 9:41:35 AM   
xhoel


Posts: 1072
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

I pointed all this out a year ago and nothing has been done.



And nothing will be done because you are unable to make your case and each argument is being shot down.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

Congratulations Xhoel you have actually managed to sound more hysterical than Hanky
Xhoel you pretend like there is no problem with German supply, so why is it being rewritten for WIET2 then? Answer because it doesn't work in WITE1.



I asked you to show us your spearheads and HQs so we can help you optimize them. I also went and did a test and managed to reach Leningrad in 4 turns using the parameters that you yourself specified (no combat from the Panzers and no resistance from the Soviets). I have proven you wrong. And you didn't answer my question: What is the problem with the Germans reaching Leningrad on turn 4?

Your best counter to that is that I am being hysterical?
You sure won that argument

The Supply system is not being rewritten because the Germans have too little supply in WitE. It is being rewritten to represent a more historical supply system (eg: no infinite freight, double and single rail tracks etc). One of the many complaints has been that the Germans actually have too much supply during the summer.

I extended my hand and tried to help you optimize your spearheads without offending you. This was done because I thought that you have somehow misunderstood the rules and because you don´t know how to use the supply system properly and instead of asking for help were attacking the game. I clearly was mistaken. I went out of my way to test your theory and have proven that it is wrong. Any WitE player is free to recreate what I have stated in post #145 and post their results. I can guarantee you that on turn 4 the Germans will be at the outskirts of Leningrad.

You being yourself cannot comprehend that you are wrong and continue to spew things that make no sense. Have it your way. I won't bother myself with answering to anything you say anymore. It is the same as arguing with someone who believes the earth is flat. No discussion to be had, believe what you want to believe. You keep doing your thing and keep grasping at straws @chuckfourth.

Best regards,
Xhoel



_____________________________

AAR WITW: Gotterdammerung 43-45
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4490035
AAR WITE: A Clash of Titans 41-45
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4488465

(in reply to chuckfourth)
Post #: 158
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/12/2019 10:48:30 AM   
Red Lancer


Posts: 4043
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
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I'm beginning to think this is some bizarre form of trolling...

You have completely misrepresented my argument. Let me try again. The map is correct. The boundary you are concerned about represents where the different rail repair rules apply on the map and does not reflect the geography of the Baltic States in 1941. I presumed you had read the Manual and knew that the:

"Baltic Rail Zone: Delineates the area in the former Baltic Republics where compatibility of rail gauge makes repair of railroads easier for the Axis player in the first six months of the war".

The design choice was to have rules that allow a reduced cost of rail repair in those areas where historically rail repair was faster because the rail gauge was standard gauge and not broad gauge.

quote:

You have removed the Germans ability to fix that piece of line at the correct historical (Baltic) rate because why?


Because as I have shown the rail between Vilnius and Daugavpils was broad gauge: therefore the cost of repair is higher in those hexes. The rule is about Standard and Broad not Baltic and Russian. It is called the Baltic Rail Zone as a generalisation. This is why the Manual quote above says "in the former Baltic..." and not "of the former Baltic..." which would indicate the rail rules being contiguous with the administrative boundaries of the former Baltic States.

The reduced rail repair cost rules have been added to the game to favour the Axis. This demonstrates the focus on detail the game designers have. To argue that the game been developed to include every little factor that disadvantages the Germans when this rule has been included counters your argument completely.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to xhoel)
Post #: 159
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/12/2019 2:48:56 PM   
King_Solomon

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 11/5/2018
From: Farmersville
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

I'm beginning to think this is some bizarre form of trolling...




While this has proven entertaining (and very educational, who knew so much about Soviet petrol?), it has grown tiresome. Xhoel was right, please stop feeding the troll. Give yourself a break in anticipation of a repeat performance when WitE2 appears.

Chuckfourth, I'm sorry but this game is not for you nor will it ever be. I would suggest finding one of the many wonderful board games on the Eastern Front which would allow you the benefit of creating/changing any rules you deem fitting. If you need game suggestions I would gladly help.

I realize I am an outsider but I come here because I love the game and to escape our messed-up world for a while, not for the bullshit and name-calling. It's time to move on from this argument. Can we please close this thread?

(in reply to Red Lancer)
Post #: 160
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/12/2019 7:01:58 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline
quote:

rail between Vilnius and Daugavpils

Before the Soviet Army entered to Eastern Poland in September 1939 Wilno(Vilnius) and the area around was the Polish territory. On 10 October 1939 Wilno and the area around was transferred to Lithuania as part of the Soviet-Lithuanian theaty. On 3 August 1940 Lithuania became the part of USSR.
So this area only few months(less than 1 year) was the Baltic(Lithuanian).


Part of the Lithuanian railroad from the Atlas of USSR railroads (published by RKKA's Military Communications Department for the service(internal?) use in 1943). Number of the ways on 1 June 1941.


_____________________________


(in reply to King_Solomon)
Post #: 161
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/12/2019 9:01:21 PM   
chuckfourth

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline
Thank you all for your replies.
Don't worry xhoel I will get there, at the moment my time is fully sucked up with dealing with Hankies copious amounts of rubbish.

So these are the changes needed to fix the game.
You need the historical rail repair rate, not just to correct German supply reach, but because that allows Germanys critical railway guns to arrive where they are needed at the correct time to deal with Morvaels newly created super forts.
Truck supply range of 26 should be 90, as in North Africa.
You need to have a resupply button on each unit which gives that unit priority resupply with distance modifiers, that will then allow blitzkrieg. You can then get rid of HQ buildup. HQ buildup is just a way of destroying extra German trucks.
German railhead distance modifiers need to be massively relaxed.
Drop the first turn Surprise rule. This is just an unwanted patch that is necessary because the fundamental game settings are wrong, German supply amongst other things.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 162
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/15/2019 9:41:10 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 119
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
Well the circus is back in town, lets see what antics the clown gets up to. viewer discretion is advised as this performance is not suitable for young children, there will be strong language, and frequent piss taking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
Hanky and Morvael both subscribe to the ridiculous proposition that you need to have half your transport convoy composed of fuel trucks to go long distances. This is their justification for the drop in supply delivered after 10 hexes.


Your fact free ignorant opinion. V what the maths shows, and the historical record contains. Everyone has an opinion, not all opinions are equal, yours is less equal than almost all others.
Halder tells us for AGC in July 13000 tons of supply required daily, but only 6500 arrived at the rail heads, of that 5000 or so makes it to the Divisions requiring it each day. Based on how many trucks are left according to Halder.

Supply branch of the OKH warned Brauchitsch, Halder and Bock 'if the intensity of fighting and the operational rhythm was to be similar to that of the summer campaign, the supply system would be able to cover a bit over 50% of AGC's needs for a space of time of two weeks. More than that, and the system would collapse and the it would be able to deliver just between 10-20% of the total load of supplies needed'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
First the Germans SET UP PETROL STATIONS.


Incorrect.
quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
Second they had petrol tanker convoys


Correct but are subject to the limits imposed by reality. Already given you the maths of Mot/Pzr Div resupply Halder diary gives us the data so we know that in reality the fuel demand was always higher than the capacity to deliver it, and that after 300klm, the amount of logistics reaching those consuming it would be in the 15-20% range. Just as shown in the pre war logistical planning.
quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
Third they could use Russian fuel.

They could, and on 6th July 41 Schwepenburg reported what the effects of doing so were, 30 Pzr III and 4 Pzr 4 total write offs when using captured fuel.
Every, every, author on this is clear, soviet fuel was to low powered for German use. We know this because Halder in the pre war logistics planning notes there cannot be use of captured fuel, and only in 42 did they complete the installations to add benzol to captured fuel for use.

Here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KeDvCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT49&lpg=PT49&dq=captured+soviet+petrol&source=bl&ots=jdQlXgffK8&sig=ACfU3U3G6x43GLQFyac8CdCUggLu7hTKmQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjxsum1z53lAhWwQEEAHUbdChkQ6AEwDHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=captured%20soviet%20petrol&f=false
Here:
https://www.joelhayward.org/Hitlers-Quest-Finished.pdf
Moreover, during the eastern campaign German units were unable to utilize captured fuel, as they had during the campaigns of 1939 and 1940. This was because the octane content of Soviet petrol was too low for German vehicles. It could only be used after the addition of benzol in complex installations constructed specifically for that task.
Here:
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/35463983.pdf
Moreover, during the eastern campaign German units were unable to utilize captured fuel, as they had during the campaigns of 1939 and 1940. This was because the octane content of Soviet petrol was too low for German vehicles. It could only be used after the addition of benzol in complex installations constructed specifically for that task.46 The oil situation of the eastern armies soon became desperate. For example, on 6 September 1941 Hitler issued War Directive 35, which outlined Operation Taifun, the resumption of the offensive against Moscow.47 Five days later, Generaloberst Franz Halder, the German Army Chief of Staff, recorded in his war diary that the eastern forces needed 27 train loads of fuel per day throughout the rest of September and 29 per day throughout the entire following month if they were to carry out successfully the new offensive.48 However, wrote Halder, the High Command of the Armed Forces (OKW)argued that it could not supply this enormous quantity of fuel. It could supply only 22 trainload daily for the period to 16 September and, whilst it could provide the required 27 trainload per day for the last two weeks of that month, it could supply only 22 per day (less than 75 per cent of those required) for the whole of October. For the month of l\November, when the daily requirements were estimated to be 20 trainload, the OKW believed that only three (or 15 per cent of the required level) could be supplied each day.49 As it turned out, the OKW failed to supply even these lower quantities to the eastern forces.

Here:https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=k-bubnhoueEC&pg=PA134&lpg=PA134&dq=captured+fuel+east+front+stahel&source=bl&ots=ysE811zMl2&sig=ACfU3U0qpj-JHeZdDUUmrD3XiaIX3b9xvQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7_ZCJ8Z3lAhWSbsAKHX2JBxA4ChDoATADegQIBxAB#v=onepage&q=petrol&f=false
quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
Some of the German trucks used diesel, these trucks could happily run on captured Russian diesel of which I'm sure they captured plenty.


June 41, German diesel allocation for EF, 50,000 gallons, total consumed, 38000 tons, by the just under 20,000 diesel MT on EF, Germany had no diesel shortage on EF, it barely had any diesel trucks either. More deflection as its not relavent, "but about as relevant as the temperature on Mars" is how you put it. Note your still incapable of using the forum quote function.
quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
KB70 and B70 is Russian fuel for their aircraft and light tanks, the Russians had a lot of both. 70 is the octane rating. The German army ran on 70-74 octane so this fuel CAN be pumped straight into the German vehicles.


Nope, B70 is soviet AVgas. 70 is the rich octane number, SU always uses the rich octane value. 7-74 is the lean Octane value for German B3 You used caps for the word can, its considerd bad manners to do this on the net, as its shouting, and is the resort/retort of the inarticulate who have run out of argument. You do it all the time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
all mogas had a far lower octane level than western European engines could run on and required additives to bring the octane level up high enough to use in engines.
Using the word all makes this a bald faced LIE because KB70 and B70 are the same octane level as German fuel. It can be pumped straight into a German engine.

Only if you intend to destroy them. Neither are the same octane rating as each other.
liars, and you are one such, expect to be lied to and act/think accordingly.
quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
Hanky also says
German MTV and Russian MTV used different grades of fuel, they were not interchangeable, each destroys the others engines. In Russia you cant use captured fuel stocks until its been converted to the same fuel grade.
Wrong again Hanky, German MTV and Russian light tanks used the SAME grade of fuel, KB70 and B70. So another bald faced LIE.

I am?, so is every author, and so is Halder who explained that no fuel could be used until benzol was added to it to bring its octane level up. For the simple reason they are not even close to being the same grade of octane.
Its rather simple, you post about ww2 but have no ****ing clue about ww2.
quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
You CAN put low octane gas (Russian) in a high octane engine (German) the engine loses power and the fuel can ignite early giving knocking but it still runs. It doesn't necessarily destroy the engine. This depends on how different the ideal and actual octane levels are and the engine itself. Don't forget an engine will run just fine on a quite wide range of fuel octane levels

Only if you intending to destroy the engine.
Your modern car auto shuts down preventing ignition if the wrong fuel is inserted, on idle with B70 in a Panzer, you have major engine rebuild after 90 seconds, if the accelerator is used, its a scrapper within minutes. MT going into Austria in the Anschluss lost 40% to major engine overhauls to single digit octane difference between German and Austrian petrol.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
And here's something I found very interesting from Van Creveld no less.
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=209233
Fuel consumption by both armoured groups was very high, but could be met because that of ammunition was correspondingly low, and because Panzergruppe 2 made a TIMELY DISCOVERY OF A LARGE RUSSIAN RESEVIOUR near Baranovichi.


Crvald page 150, using Halders explanation of why no use of fuel was made in the planning of the campaign.
"Nor was there much hope of utilizing captured fuel, for Russian petrol had a low octane content, and could only be used by German vehicles after the addition of benzol in specially-constructed installations".
What is crevald referring to?, when he mentions Guderian use of captured fuel?.https://www.scmglobe.com/battle-smolensk-1941-invasion-russia/


Its the stocks of AVGas B78 in the Air fuel depot, refined at the intact captured refinery at Baranovich, one of 5 in the whole SU who in total produced 40,600 gallons of B78 to fuel the most modern of the SU fighters. Guderian is low on fuel, cannot advance and asks for team of petro chemist to be flown in from IG Farben, to see if the AVgas B 78 can be modified for MOgas use, the reports/findings are at fishertroppe archive, they blended, running it through the refinery, German B3 with SU B78 and got on a 4 to 1 ratio and thus increased Guderians fuel stocks, allowing him to continue. Engineers then worked out how much benzol ( blending B70 was a no go cording to the petro chemists) to add to B70 and set in motion the creation of installations to refine captured SU fuels on the eastern front.
quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
Hanky note this is in JUNE 41. In the game the Germans cannot find any large Russian reservoirs near anywhere. But here we have an example of a whole Panzergruppe finding enough RUSSIAN FUEL to run on.


I take note note of your ignorance of the meaning of the quote, i take not note of your ignorance of what Crevald wrote of the use of captured AVgas.

Again with the caps, to draw attention to your ignorance of the events being refereed to. There were 195 SU refanaries in June 41, producing 883,600 tons AVgas, 3.477 million tons of Mogas, in the 12 months leading up to war. At the start of the war, the Red Army Fuel Service had 247 fixed storage facilities and fuelling stations. 90% of the Red Armys fuel stores were located in the border military districts. Seventy-three fixed tank farms with a storage capacity of 171,000 m3 were lost in just the first month of military operations. Germany had a large captured stock of AvGas and Mogas by end of the first month, the tonnage of captured B78 it could blend was insignificant.
quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
Oh and just a point on etiquette for you Hanky here's something you said,
Soviet account: from "Technical Support of Armoured Forces in the Vistula-Oder Operation" is that they could not use captured enemy fuel dumps until they had been tested for octane rating, water contamination, type of fuel, etc which was done by the Army laboratory but took some time to find out if the fuel was usable. '
You lifted this word for word straight out of
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=226225
with no acknowledgement that you lifted it from that article and the whole thing should be in quotes not just the title, that plagiarism my friend. You presented this as though you had read the reference and they were you words, but you copied it. So what other stuff have you made up? seems you are a liar and a thief. or maybe a just leave it at lying thief.


For a poster who is offensive in the extreme to anyone who points out the errors in your posts content, who failed to follow board rules and got banned, your in no position to give points of etiquette or how to behave.

I wrote: German MTV and Russian MTV used different grades of fuel, they were not interchangeable, each destroys the others engines. Unlike in France where the Heer simply topped up from French petrol stations, who used the same form of fuel, and went on, in Russia you cant use captured fuel stocks until its been converted to the same fuel grade.
Its also common sense that the average German Div did not have an refinery in its TOE to convert soviet fuel for use.

You claim i was a lair, denied there were 4 SU fuels, i pointed out the links you used show that to be the case, and you should read them, i linked you to a book using the same, (Technical Support of Armoured Forces in the Vistula-Oder Operation, lieutenant general Milovskiy, 6.41 to 5.45, from the soviet QM reports, and is the original wartime source) you just again linked to a thread that again explains that to be the case and refers back to the origibnalm source, Now you dont like any of that, and claim its plagiarism. this is called deflection, and is the resort of the inherently dishonest when faced with the facts they refuse to face. You do it all the time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
Shalkai I looked at your links but I still cannot understand how to fix more that 6 railway hexes a turn to get to Jelgava in two turns. Can you explain how that is done?


Not sure whats more pathetic, your inept incompetent attempt to play the game, arising from ignorance of the rules that govern supply, or your imbecility. Btw when people go out of there way to help you, you have instead of thanking them, insulted them.

My last post to you ****wit.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 10/15/2019 10:13:45 AM >

(in reply to chuckfourth)
Post #: 163
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/17/2019 6:20:02 AM   
chuckfourth

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 10/26/2011
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Well, Well Hanky, Your last post to me, so looks like you are a coward as well as a lying thief.
Won't look good on your resume will it, but probably doesn't matter too much as your still living with your parents I guess.
So we wont be treated to any more of your vile gloating posts then, you know most people in this forum find your posts repulsive, If you had any social skills (Read friends here) you would be aware of this. I guess you are just as repulsive in real life as you are in this forum which is why you are such a sad little troll.
You went hard on the petrol because you knew you were wrong. Call it avgas, muddy the waters as much as you like, if an engine uses petrol with octane rating of 70 then you can put Russian or German 70 octane petrol through it no problem.
As usual posts about supply shortages during the winter etc, I'm talking about the supply cliff at the end of turn 2.
The Germans set did up PETROL stations at least that's what Handbook on German Military Forces says but I guess you are a lot more knowledgeable than the US War department.
Oh and of course you like everyone else in this forum you won't touch Rommel trucking supplies over 900 miles, reality doesn't seem to fit in with your idiotic calculations does it Hanky.
Oh and the Germans made use of enough Russian fuel to run a panzer army on in JUNE 41 oops another inconvenient fact, you idiotic little twerp.
I know it feels bad to lose the argument. Anyway you go away an have a good sook, you little baby. Maybe in the interum you might grow up.

Its how we Roll eh Morveal.

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 164
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/19/2019 12:09:58 AM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 6546
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From: Germany, Hannover (region)
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Out of arguments, proven wrong multiple times and now you attack him?
I can see the banhammer swinging above you .......

(in reply to chuckfourth)
Post #: 165
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/19/2019 7:31:43 AM   
chuckfourth

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 10/26/2011
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Its how we roll Dennis arn't you listening?
Thanks for the threat, sort of thing I've come to expect here.
How exactly do you explain Rommel trucking supplies over 900 miles
or put another way how exactly did Hanny prove this is wrong?

(in reply to Denniss)
Post #: 166
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/20/2019 9:56:52 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 3927
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online
This thread needs to end.

< Message edited by Michael T -- 10/21/2019 12:47:07 AM >


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(in reply to chuckfourth)
Post #: 167
RE: How to fix the game. - 11/16/2019 9:25:03 PM   
chuckfourth

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 10/26/2011
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Ok so here's a summary of where we have arrived.
Russian octane 70 fuel can be poured straight into a German truck, This fuel was used by Russian light tanks. So there must have been a lot of it about. So HQ fuel captures should be in the tens and hundreds of tons not single digits. Fuel that wasn't an appropriate octane rating could be used later after being doctored. The capture of cities and towns should be considered to add Fuel, Food and Fodder to the German Supply.
According to Van Crevald a whole panzer army managed to run some distance on captured Russian fuel in June 41.
Rommel ran truck supply lines for 900 miles, The game only allows a road supply line to be 260 miles long so the supply range needs to be increased. At 900 miles supply was clearly not 0 so the game supply delivery decrease with distance going to 0 at 260 miles is wrong. It shouldn't even be 0 at 900 miles.
Baltic had a European paved road network. So truck supply ranges in the Baltic zone need to be longer than in Russia proper. This is another argument for having the correct Baltic boundary,
Red lancer good point but as far as Baltic rail goes moving one of the tracks across is relatively simple. The willing cooperation of the Baltic rail organization and the superior Baltic infrastructure is more important than rail gauge. This helpfulness and infrastructure would correspond to the real Baltic boundary.
The game determines which units get supply based on distance. Giving each unit a resupply preference button incorporating a distance modifier would allow the player to decide.
At the end of turn two German panzer units that use up their full movement allocation and get forward without fighting will be nearly out of supply. Anyone can see this by running a test game. One player tried a different tack to just abusing me and pretended instead that the turn 2 supply cliff actually doesn't exist. When asked how they avoided the cliff they disappeared.
It would be great addition to the game to allow the player to place his units as he wishes at the start of the game instead of having to conform to the historical placement.
And I would end with a question, If a unit is a long way away and only qualifies for 10% of its supply, what happens to the remaining 90% does it evaporate or is it held over until the next turn?

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 168
RE: How to fix the game. - 11/17/2019 8:07:43 AM   
Dinglir


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Please stop...

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(in reply to chuckfourth)
Post #: 169
RE: How to fix the game. - 11/17/2019 10:59:06 PM   
chuckfourth

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 10/26/2011
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Thank you Dingllir for being polite.

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 170
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