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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/31/2019 2:52:14 PM   
joelmar


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quote:


ORIGINAL: Hanny

Therin lies a problem, from production only**, the Ostfront in 41 had a problem that demand vastly greater than production could deliver, and the RR deliver could deliver.


Indeed, the Quartermaster general of the Wehrmacht was quite clear on this all along, the capacity to sustain such an operation weren't there. Barbarossa was at most a big gamble based on the hope that the Soviet regime would crumble fast. It did not and so everything failed, and by the time of the battle of Smolensk, ominious omens were already there. On this I entirely agree with Stahel who brings very convincing arguments.



< Message edited by joelmar -- 7/31/2019 3:02:59 PM >


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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/31/2019 4:31:32 PM   
Hanny


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It does not stop with Wagner in 41, being told by Halder that logistical constraints cannot be allowed to interfere with operational matters when he objected to the plan, ( cue live of the land so save 000s of tons of food which is replaced with POL/munitions and its still not enough) it extended to 42 and Blau, "With the available amounts of fuel,it is mathematically impossible to execute Blau successfully".Colonel Pollex OKW logistics planer for Blau argueing to Hitler, only to be told to get on and do it.

Quite how anyone can model reality into the game and not distort playability is beyond me. But the purpose is to produce a game, not a replay. In that regard making it possible while extremely difficult, is a design choice/problem of how best to accomplish that.



< Message edited by Hanny -- 7/31/2019 5:06:30 PM >

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RE: How to fix the game. - 8/1/2019 1:27:58 PM   
joelmar


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quote:


ORIGINAL: Hanny
Quite how anyone can model reality into the game and not distort playability is beyond me.


It's also beyond me, the political aspect is probably the most challenging. Even if you manage to model logistics, tactics and strategies perfectly, by example, how do you model a dictator that gives order that are against military wisdom?

< Message edited by joelmar -- 8/1/2019 1:28:52 PM >


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RE: How to fix the game. - 8/2/2019 3:03:04 AM   
juv95hrn

 

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A discussion about the thread subject supply in the German army.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBAoW0PWNUw

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RE: How to fix the game. - 8/3/2019 9:07:25 AM   
Shalkai

 

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(been having trouble trying to post this. Let's see if I figured out what the forum filter doesn't like)

I've been looking through all the posts of this thread and doing some off-the-cuff checking and analysis in my spare time (I'm both a wargamer and a history buff, so hey - this is fun!) That has included looking at many posts - data, extrapolations from that data, and background sources cited. Then reading or at least skimming the sources cited. Good, useful stuff.

It looks like things are so off-kilter between the very disparate viewpoints presented because some of the extrapolations made from certain data points are arguably off-kilter.

> Game manual is cited - 10 hexes is full supply, 20 hexes is 10/20 or 50% supply, 30 hexes is 10/30 or 33% supply.

OK. Supply model has many additional complexities, but this is fine as a first-order approximation of what is in the game.

> Original poster cites US guide to German forces, cites "motorized columns....on good roads...can cover up to 125 miles per day"

Again, OK - though with caveats. Most roads in Russia were rutted dusty (or muddy) tracks, not good roads. So 125 mi/day (12 hexes) is reasonably accurate for the more improved areas, but otherwise those columns probably only made 60 to 90 miles/day (6 to 9 hexes) on the bad ones. Army and Army Group logistics in that era was designed around 150 to 300km (100 to 200 miles) distances between combat area and supply depots/railheads.

> Extrapolation is then made that a column can cover 7x125 or 875 miles/week, halved for round trip, so max range is 437 miles (44 hexes) from railhead.

This extrapolation is problematic. I cannot find any confirming data in any source cited in this thread or my other sources that a Kraftwagenkolonnen or a Grosstransportraum was built around a one-week delivery round trip. They were sized and equipped to deliver X tons/day. If you want X tons per day, and it is a one week round trip, then you need 7X times the numbers of trucks to deliver that X tons/day to the end-user.
On that basis (along with more detailed research I won't add unless needed), I disagree with the extrapolation that there should be no supply penalty for 44 hexes (or even for half that distance).

> About half of the posts in this thread are more about game balance than anything else.

I'm not going to try to analyze that, because it's not something suitable for analysis.
[Two words....In my opinion, since either side can potentially win, and there are methods built into the game to balance between different players, we arguably have 'game balance'. I'm content. Sure, things could be improved or added. Come on, WitE2! :D ]

> Discussion then refocuses on supply with issue of a panzer unit reaching Riga on turn 3 with only 2 MP left. Changing game settings only improved things slightly, panzer unit had 10 MP left when it got there.

Probably not a problem? I haven't gamed out first three turns in 'Road to Leningrad' scenario to double-check this, but startline-Riga is around 340km, and Riga-Talinn is another 310km. 650km=401mi. Taking most of three weeks to get that far, with a couple battles and a lot of skirmishes on the way (so only a few MP left like the game might leave you) seems fine. Results backed up by historical capture dates (Riga July 1st, Tallinn July 10th). I would certainly not expect to have full fuel tanks, or even a full supply convoy on hand, to immediately get to 100% supply and fuel levels.

> Reviewing rail repair dates shows limited rail availability on dates that were historically much earlier than rail lines are repaired in game.

Reading through several sources (especially the hgwdavie(dot)com article about German railway usage on the East Front) clarifies this pretty well. They got the first train into Riga on 9 July - but bridge fixes took til 12 July, and even then hgwdavie article explains that they still were not in full operation. Stations still needed to be manned and repaired, coal and repair items had to be delivered, etc. In addition, they had to bring in and schedule the trains and rolling stock needed to run those new routes. Rail capacity just leaving Prussia was a hindrance - they could not even manage the 24 pairs of trains each day they needed to move across the German/Lithuanian border by the end of July.

In addition, rail conversion numbers seem to match up fairly well between historical totals and game modeling. Historical dates cited and counting hexes gives around 69 on main lines, 13 on cross branch, unknown - call it 20 - on trunk lines. Say 102 hexes in total. In game, most Axis players will have two FBDs working in these areas - one heading towards Pskov, the other to Veli-Luki. Each FBD can fix about 5 hex/turn on average since most are in Baltic Rail zone. So that's about 50 hexes. [The forums have a nice optimization guide, using three FBDs, to really push lines east quicker. See that if interested] In addition, the AG construction battalions are busy fixing branch lines every turn, call it 6/turn. Since the rail lines are actually 'fully stocked' the next logistics phase after an FBD gets it 99% repaired, that conversion actually covers not only the repair, but the next week or two of real-life work to stock the railyard, bunker coal, fix bridges all the way, etc. etc. Game gives you 80 hexes fully functional, compared to 102 limited functional. Pretty good modeling in my book.

> in post 64, references are made to supply commitments for AGC in July.

These cite historical data, and plans to give full supply for mobile offensive attacks to 4 panzer, 3 motorized, and 10 infantry divisions. That's confirmed in multiple sources - but it is less than half the supply that all of AGC needed. Historically, AGC had limited supply, and this is exactly what played out in the giant July-September attacks and near-constant Soviet counterattacks. AGC does not have 100% supply in July - parts have 100%, the others get 50% or less (enough for defense or limited attacks). Overall average 65-70% of what they needed.

In WitE, in mid-July, HQ units are usually 15-20 hexes from railhead, and getting around 60-65% of what they need. Plus player can use HQBU on one or perhaps two corps each turn for near-full resupply, so that bumps overall results to that 65-70% area.

In conclusion, going back to the perceived errors in the supply system and the desired goal of rewarding an active, forward Soviet defense, my opinions are as follows:

1. The supply modeling is not horribly broken - analysis and multiple historical sources show it is pretty good when compared to historical data.

2. Supply restrictions in-game do have the potential effect of rewarding the Soviet for a run-away strategy; however if those restrictions are eased, then the Axis forces will be able to move faster and attack harder than they already can. Which gets into balance issues...that eternal quagmire. Outlines have already been given of new, better supply modeling being made for WitE2, so I think it would be best to wait for that. It is completely unrealistic to expect Matrix to completely revise supply, and everything else that would have to be touched, to 'fix' WitE when the successor is already well along the development path.

3. In WitE2 (and perhaps in a future WitE patch) it might be possible to lessen the benefits of a 'Brave, brave Sir Robin' run-away Soviet strategy by rewarding the Soviets for aggressive play on their part. Perhaps by increasing the supplies and fuel consumed by defending Axis units. This would correspond to historical events - the Soviets hardly ever won any battles or made any advances stick - but their attacks were in game-terms 'soak-offs', which caused attrition and massive supply usage in the Wehrmacht defenders, which led to constant delays and reroutings of scarce resources and reserve formations. [personally, I would *love* to see something like this! I like to play reasonably aggressively as the Soviet - even if not to Stalin's standards - even though army after army gets creamed.]

note: the above three points are not facts or statements, merely my opinions. They are for your rumination, and possible further discussion.

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RE: How to fix the game. - 8/3/2019 4:47:16 PM   
Tejszd

 

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Good recap Shalkai

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RE: How to fix the game. - 8/4/2019 7:46:45 AM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shalkai



> Game manual is cited - 10 hexes is full supply, 20 hexes is 10/20 or 50% supply, 30 hexes is 10/30 or 33% supply.

OK. Supply model has many additional complexities, but this is fine as a first-order approximation of what is in the game.

> Original poster cites US guide to German forces, cites "motorized columns....on good roads...can cover up to 125 miles per day"




Russia was not a road based economy, it was a RR economy. US Guide was using fuel consumption on a US all weather road, it notes off road fuel consumption went up by 300%. OP has Germans in Russia moving supplies over russian dirt roads as quick as USA Redball convoys in western Europe on all weather roads.

German Divs request resupply and expect in to be delivered inside 24 hours from the depot, they have a 90 tons integral lift for this per day. If it takes longer, the Div, depending on what type of Div has on hand supplies to cover shortfall, but there was no Div that can supply itself from stocks on hand for a week and perform its expected daily tasks. Nor can it send out trucks on day 2 to get what it consumed on day 1 and not had deivered because its 3 days away without ramifications.

The depot is daisy chained by the GTR from the nearest RR, this 60k ton GTR is what moves the supplies from a RR away from the RR to allow armies to operate away from rail heads.


< Message edited by Hanny -- 8/4/2019 7:50:15 AM >

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RE: How to fix the game. - 8/8/2019 11:23:35 AM   
PhaetonScipio

 

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I'm going to create a thread in the coming (4) months to "put the last nail in the coffin" about German logistics. Which considers all aspects from the timing down to the Reich's shoelace.

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RE: How to fix the game. - 9/11/2019 10:01:40 AM   
chuckfourth

 

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Sammy5IsAlive
you said
"If you push all those units forward at the same time into enemy hexes you will burn large amounts of fuel/MPs"
That is how the game is structured but shouldn't be.
If a hex isn't contested it should be friendly, German recon was well equipped, fast and aggressive, they had full control of the air. -If- the Russians had actually pulled back Wholus Bolus as they do in the game the German would have been following right on their heels.
joelmar
you said
"Everything is averaged out."
A poor excuse, it clearly doesn't have to be averaged out, better if it was historically accurate.
Hanny
Its very simple. While the vehicle pool is Full, it's the first week (or even the third) of the game, and the Russians are running away, it is very clear the Germans should get the maximum possible supply RANGE according to the capabilities of the various vehicles or convoys, they dont. far from it Ive prooved this already.
You and most other posters are conflating supply range and amount. If half the truck fleet is missing the remaining trucks will deliver half as much but to the same RANGE, the same distance as the full complement of trucks would.
You said
"German MTV and Russian MTV used different grades of fuel, they were not interchangeable"
I think you made that up. Show me a reference please.
Shalkai you said
"Taking most of three weeks to get that far, with a couple battles and a lot of skirmishes on the way (so only a few MP left like the game might leave you) seems fine. I would certainly not expect to have full fuel tanks, or even a full supply convoy on hand, to immediately get to 100% supply and fuel levels."
OK so my point is this. The Russian has withdrawn so there are NO battles and NO skirmishes. So no need for ammunition resupply whatsoever. Please don't misquote me, I am not asking for 100% supply, or fuel, just something a bit more realistic than nearly nothing after not having had to fight any battles, just driving down the roads. "Immediately" is a poor choice of word, the turns are one week each so I am not expecting convoys to be at hand 'immediately' I am expecting them to be on hand, within the WEEK.
Lets not forget that the Baltic states were not Russia, they have always fallen into the German sphere of influence. Gen. Lt. a.D, Max Bork a Branch Chief in the Transportation Division of the German Army General Staff says in the Baltic, NO supply problems. In the Baltic states many paved and good quality roads already existed this is completely ignored in the game
Your game rail repair rates are inflated for example,
"Each FBD can fix about 5 hex/turn on average since most are in Baltic Rail zone" No 1 is in the Baltic zone and No 2 only for a short time, and given terrain, the average is 4 hexes or less.
Also you said "the AG construction battalions are busy fixing branch lines every turn, call it 6/turn" I've had turns when there is exactly nothing repaired by the AG construction. Also they are repairing stuff that is useless to the supply starved spearheads. So whatever they do is irrelevant. everybody in reality is pushing that main trunk line forward, not mucking around in backwaters.
I wont bother with the rest of your comparisons as you conveniently neglected to provide any dates.
I've already clearly shown that in the first few weeks of the campaign the game rail repair rate is easily less than half historical, FACT. This needs to fixed. To me halving the German rail repair rate and saying this is balanced by the rail giving full supply is a cheat because once supply goes on the road it is severly limited by the rail head distance modifiers. So the Germans dont get full supply. The lines need to be repaired out to the correct historical distance and the SUPPLY along them restricted to what was available, conflating range/distance with supply quantitiy instead of having the real distance/range and the real amounts of supply has led to this very boring situation where the Russian can just run away. That was never an option.
You say
"They were sized and equipped to deliver X tons/day. If you want X tons per day, and it is a one week round trip, then you need 7X times the numbers of trucks to deliver that X tons/day to the end-user. "
Correct. Good point, lets look at it.
So it all depends on how many trucks they have, so what 1 gross truppen can deliver in a day 7 gross truppen can deliver in a week did they have enough trucks for this probably in the first few weeks of the campaign, yes, especially as no ammo needed to be brought forward because dont forget this is all in the context of the Russian running away. So how much tonnage do we save if no Ammo expended?
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=90657&start=15 see post 26
"seven divisions ... quartermaster put his army's supply requirement at 1350 tons a day, of which from 940 to 980 tons were for the divisions - or 140 tons per division ... 360 tons of provisions, 350 tons of munitions and 270 tons of fuel "
So if you are advancing without opposition, your supply requirement drops by about a third because NO ammunition is expended.
So lets look at some ball park figures,
Ok so how much does a German division need? look at post 65 here.
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=90657&start=60
This is a long thoroughly informed thread, this poster had a good look at the numbers and summarizes with this,
"But if I were to guesstimate, 200 tons daily supply requirement for a fighting full strength infantry division of the 1. Welle does not strike me as unreasonable, and almost certainly at the lower end of things. 110 tons appears to be the minimum on the march. If the division is resting and can live off the land, the figure can drop drastically, since horse fodder, water, and food can be procured locally. If even water has to supplied, the tonnage requirement easily doubles."
How far can they deliver supply from the Railhead? in a day about 125 miles is the consensus but look at this quote about GTR range from post three at
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=214721
"A days marching... averaged 300km, but at times individual performances achieved almost twice as much."
So that's 186 miles so 18 hexes a day, NOT 10. With the possibility of 36 hexes under duress, IN A DAY. So if there is a desperate need to get the supplies forward it can be done.
Now look at post number 12 where it is revealed GTR has a lift capacity of about 67055 tons at the beginning of Barbarossa,
Lets do some simple math,
150 infantry divisions marching forward, each needs a minimum of 110 tons because no Russian opposition like in the game.
67055/150 well they have 440 tons each to play with, so easy enough to account for some extra rations for the Armored divisions, and they can deliver it out to 18 hexes maybe even 36 because it is week three, the roads are still in good nick and if they arn't there are BATTALIONS of construction troops the sole purpose of which is to fix the roads.
Now don't forget that 110 figure includes everything. But of course every time they capture a town or city its FULL of petrol, diesel, water, food and fodder all of wich no longer needs to come from the raihead.
If they have to fight forward we get a figure of 200 tons/division a day. Still easily done out of 440 available a day.

Ok here's something else wrong in the game supply setup, look at the same site, last post, post 21. The number of trucks in the army inventory during Barbarossa went UP over the campaign not down like in the game.
By 1943 the tonnage GTR carried had got to 80000 tons, see post 3.
Post 20 tells us in 1939 they had 442036 LKW, 82077 trailers and produced a further 64900.
A German division contains its own 30 ton transport column and a 25 cubic mtr POL column so there is another 125 miles a day for 30t of supply from the divisions end. So, if a static German infantry Division can live on 30 tons a day it should be fully supplied at 36 or maybe 72 hexes from the rail head. Given good roads and weather. Also if it is fightind using 200 tonnes a day then that still gives a range of 200/30 = 7 so range becomes 125/7 = 18 so whatever the GTR range is we need to add the Division own supply range of minimum 2 hexes.

For gods sake whoever is fixing the broken German supply please read these links I've provided, and give each unit a resupply button same as refit so the supply can be sent (with distance modifiers) to the units it needs to go to not wasted where it isn't needed. Same with rail let the player use his resources to push the rail head forward instead of wasting time on a useless network of side branches.
Thank you for your support Aufklaerungs.
MattFL calling me a Lying Bitch says a lot more about you than it does about me. If you are that frightened of fighting the Germans just play a different game.
A little respect for the Russians here please, yes the Germans were short of supplies before Moscow, but the Russians fought them to a standstill not ran away to a standstill.











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RE: How to fix the game. - 9/28/2019 8:24:54 AM   
chuckfourth

 

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Ok so I have the played version1.12.00, 191-45 Campaign, Logistics set to 400 transport set to 400. At the start of turn three Army Group North's two Panzer Corps are up near Tallin, Army Group Centres five panzer Corps are at the gates of Vitebsk and their movement factors are all in the low teens i.e. they are out of supply. So in two turns the game has turned the Blitzkrieg into the Sitzkrieg. 7 panzer corps are going to sit around for a WEEK after just two weeks of moving forward with little if any fighting. Here's an excerpt from my previous post 64 in this same thread.

"https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=51767
Have a look at the 9th post on this forum. For army group Centre, Rail to Baranovichi by 1st July that's 16 hexes hexes fixed in two weeks twice what the game allows. Minsk by 5th July that's 24 hexes by week 2 that's 5 times what the game allows. by mid July guaranteed 14 trains a day to Minsk, that's 4 weeks for 24 hexes, the game allows less than 16 hexes in the same time. So historically they had 98 trains a week arriving in Minsk by week 4, that's 441000 tons of supply a week. In week 4 in the game your still two weeks away from even fixing the rail as far as Minsk. Smolensk by the end of July, that's 45 hexes in 6 weeks. Overall then army group Centre historically fixed 7 rail hexes per week. The game allows, considering terrain less than 4 per week."

None of the hacks in this forum have disputed the truth of this comments.

So Morvel, can you please answer my question. Why in this new patch are the Rail Repair Rates still roughly half what the Germans historically achieved?

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RE: How to fix the game. - 9/28/2019 9:04:56 AM   
morvael


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Interesting, I think that's what actually happened - panzer corps were forced to spend weeks immobile, on defense, waiting for infantry to catch up, and fuel + spare parts to arrive.

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RE: How to fix the game. - 9/28/2019 9:06:21 AM   
morvael


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The game must slow down rail repair rate to compensate for the fact that once rail is repaired it has unlimited capacity and throughput and can supply three army groups from just one line. Some things cannot be represented well in this model. Wait for WitE2.

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RE: How to fix the game. - 9/28/2019 9:20:18 AM   
chuckfourth

 

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Ok so when it says in the v1.12 change log that

Rail capacity is no longer unlimited

That is referring to number of units travelling not supplies?

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RE: How to fix the game. - 9/28/2019 10:10:59 AM   
morvael


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Only in the sense that supplies are not moved without using any rail capacity, but share limit with units and in case of global overall shortage of rail capacity less will be delivered to units. Sadly no limits for individual lines exist.

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Post #: 104
RE: How to fix the game. - 9/28/2019 10:13:33 AM   
morvael


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Imagine slower moving railheads and distance/MP to railhead penalty actually representing limited railway line capacity with railheads a bit more advanced. Net effect of slowing down German advance should be the same.

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RE: How to fix the game. - 9/28/2019 10:49:00 AM   
chuckfourth

 

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I would request please that in WITE 2 a unit is given a button same as refit button but called resupply button, activate this and that unit receives priority of supply with distance modifiers, rather than sending all supply to close slow infantry units and leaving the panzer spearheads starved.
So simply put (numbers will vary) the idea is a unit 10 hexes away from railhead gets full supply using 100 supply capacity, or 100 trucks, a unit 40 hexes also gets full supply but uses 4x the transport capacity, so if transport capacity is 1000 trucks then supplying the 10 hex away unit leaves 900 trucks capacity for all the remaining units, Supplying the 40 hex away unit leaves 600 trucks capacity but both units get full supply. Once you have used up your 1000 trucks (Supply capacity) no more supply is delivered.

No panzer corps waited around for a week for supplies in week three of Barbarossa, after the mud sure.
It is the players choice if the panzer corps waits around for infantry to catch up not the games.

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Post #: 106
RE: How to fix the game. - 9/28/2019 12:23:16 PM   
chaos45

 

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Many players simply do not read history and understand the German logistics situation in 1941.

The German high command G4/Logistics predicted exactly when they German spearheads would run out of supplies...and this played out exactly as predicted in the campaign. The German High Command G3/Operations officers decided to ignore the logistics branch estimates saying that the Soviets would surrender and logistics wouldn't matter.

There was nothing the Germans could have done better logistics wise in 1941 period. In fact the historical outcome of German logistics was pretty amazing and did slightly better than the Logistics branch estimated...but at a cost....as they basically destroyed the German motorized/truck fleet completely in 1941. As so much of the motor pool was captured trucks from all over Europe once they broke most couldn't be repaired in anything like a timely manner. Its why going into 1942 trucks had to be taken from AGN/AGC to sent to AGS just to bring its motorized elements up to like 80% trucks. Effectively the Germans were at an extreme truck shortage by the end of 1941 they never recovered from.

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RE: How to fix the game. - 9/28/2019 3:58:45 PM   
morvael


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As I wrote earlier, certain things are not modelled by the game at all and without them it's hard to replicate real operations. One example are those railways with unlimited capacity. Another is short term vehicle loss in fast moving hard fighting mobile units. Just a few weeks into Barbarossa panzer units were at 25-35% TOE numbers with ready vehicles, but a week or two of enforced pause could turn that back to 60-70%. WitE only has heavy combat damage, and no light mechanical damage represented, so the number of panzers does not fluctuate much up and down, only steadily goes down arriving at (hopefully) similar numbers by the end of the year. Without such tools at designers disposal they had to tune up some other effects out of historical proportions with the hope that they will work as brakes on the relentess German advance allowed by good leaders and high CV.

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RE: How to fix the game. - 9/29/2019 7:42:01 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

As I wrote earlier, certain things are not modelled by the game at all and without them it's hard to replicate real operations. One example are those railways with unlimited capacity. Another is short term vehicle loss in fast moving hard fighting mobile units. Just a few weeks into Barbarossa panzer units were at 25-35% TOE numbers with ready vehicles, but a week or two of enforced pause could turn that back to 60-70%. WitE only has heavy combat damage, and no light mechanical damage represented, so the number of panzers does not fluctuate much up and down, only steadily goes down arriving at (hopefully) similar numbers by the end of the year. Without such tools at designers disposal they had to tune up some other effects out of historical proportions with the hope that they will work as brakes on the relentess German advance allowed by good leaders and high CV.



quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Imagine slower moving railheads and distance/MP to railhead penalty actually representing limited railway line capacity with railheads a bit more advanced. Net effect of slowing down German advance should be the same.


Even with these approximations, WiTE actually does I fine job I find. Even if you'd put in the issue with maintaince and wear, and capacity on the railroads, I wouldn't expect a quantum leap. It think some things, like personal factors, in conjunction with a lack of hindsight of the real and absolute picture that we do not lack today, made up for a lot of caution, slowing on the one, or rashness and suicidal attacks on the other. With numbers, industrial capacities, relative performances of platforms, rules clear, commander stats quanitified in the clear, and many other things so transparent, a lot of that uncertainty is gone.

Regarding rail capacity, and limiting it over time, a suggestion:
One could rethink the thresholds, i.e. 100% = repaired, and <100% not transport capable.
For e.g. you could allow direct repair of any rail hex in one round to e.g. only 90%, which then could translate in a limited supply capacity. Below 80% dysfunctional. Only city>4 hexes can be repaired in one further round to 100%.
And any other rail hex can get from >=90% to its fully transport capacity not by active rail repair directly, but only over time randomly (e.g. 50% per week?) if there is a neighboring hex with a higher repair state than its own nearby.

That way, first you could repair everything to 90% directly, giving you limited "1-track" capacity, or whatever you want to consider it. Then, starting from bigger cities at 100% repair state, the tracks would slowly start spearding out going back to 100%, probably in a matter of a quarter year so. This would at least put a logistic damper on the most forward combat zones during advances for a while.

Another thing I'd really like with games like WiTE or WitP/AE would really be more fuzzy commander stats. E.g. not getting the exact stats, but abstracted (e.g. excellent for 8-9, good for 5-7, mediocre below or so). That way you have to make up your mind personally as to the capacity of your subordinates... Or another idea would be coupling the accuracy of the number shown on their battle numbers, e.g. without combat experience showing a wide uncertainty range (e.g. 5-9), which the shrinks, and converges on the accurate state after certainly threshold numbers of fought battles. Particularly in combination with random stats that would perhaps be a neat feature breaking some of the optimization linearity induced by too much transparency.





(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 109
RE: How to fix the game. - 9/29/2019 9:39:15 AM   
chuckfourth

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline
Chaos45
OK instead of spouting truisms how about some facts?
You tell us WHEN G4 predicted the German spearheads would run out of supplies, was it in week 3?
I am not saying German logistics should be better than they really were, I am saying they are clearly much worse in the game than they really were. Morvael agrees, its done for play balance.

Morvael
OK don't worry about unlimited rail capacity I am talking about WITE2.
You have hit the nail on the head, good. You use "hard fighting" as a justification. That is exactly my point, Once the infantry have opened the front, Army group Centre's and North's 7 panzer corps can all flow forward for the first two turns without any "hard fighting" in fact without ANY fighting, as the Russians are too thin on the ground or withdrawing.
So the supply usage for the Germans is something like 3 or 5 times less than what it would be if they were fighting forward, because no maneuvers, no shooting.
In this situation those 7 panzer corps should be well supplied by turn 3 as they have been happily, safely just driving down the roads. Sounds unreal doesn't it, well its about as unreal as the Russians giving up hundreds of miles of territory without a fight which, because of the German railhead supply restrictions is what any sensible Russian player does.

In practical terms no fighting means the German needs no ammunition, so that decreases his supply tonnage requirements by a THIRD right there, he is also moving in orderly columns down uncontested roads so his fuel consumption is less than half, the cities and towns he captures are full of fuel, food and fodder.
Your underlying assumption that German supply should be based on fighting forward doesn't hold at the start of the game because the Russian CAN safely withdraw, exactly because the railhead range restrictions stop the Germans on turn 3. The Russian doesn't have to fight, the Railhead supply rules do the fighting for him.
As for 25-35 tank TOE numbers by week 3 this is not a valid comparison, that number is after the Germans FOUGHT forward for 3 weeks The game situation if the Russian withdrawals is that these 7 panzer corps have done no fighting and so have a TOE around 90% You can only use the Historical values you sight if both sides actually follow the historical script. If the Russians withdraw instead of fight ALL those historical constraints you mention go out the window, and the Russian always withdraws because the railhead range restrictions do the fighting for him, no matter what, the German will always arrive exhausted at the start of turn 3. In reality If the Russians had withdrawn then the German would have been hot on their heels with plenty of supply.

Ok so play balance
I am glad to see you admit that the game has got German supply wrong or to be polite "out of historical proportions" Hacks please take note of this.
Your policy needs to be to include historical facts in the game wherever possible. Anything else is guesswork. For example the Rail Repair Rates need to be about twice to be historical I've provided the links to get this right. but that makes it too easy for the Germans you say? Well then remove the German turn 1 surprise rule these two changes in combination should about balance out, maybe even make it harder for the German, that should make a lot of people in this forum happy. You would then have the correct historical rail repair rate and got rid of the surprise rule that has no basis in reality.
The German player is operating in a supply straightjacket that needs to be removed as it does not allow a free flowing unopposed movement forward of panzer corps.

So please remove the first turn surprise rule, Give the Germans their correct supply abilities, add the unit supply button so the German can send supply where they want rather than the game deciding, (those closest to the railhead). This removes the inappropriate historical straightjacket you have the Germans in. currently the Beginning weeks of the game are just going through the motions to the inevitable week 3 crash. These changes give an exciting game.

I remain interested in hearing your comments on how I suggest a unit supply button could work in my previous post.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=214721
post 3
GTR capacity was at its highest level in 1943 80000 tonnes so it has gone UP since the end of 1941 not down.


(in reply to janh)
Post #: 110
RE: How to fix the game. - 9/29/2019 10:18:05 AM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1741
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: online
According to prewar vs Russia G4 estimates the only prong of the 3 prong German offensive that could be supplied as it advanced was the advance on Leningrad. The center would outrun supply lines for any advance past Smolensk and the south would outrun supply lines for any advance past Kiev.

The German G4 recommended that the German Army capture Leningrad in 1941 halt at a Smolensk/Dnepr line for the winter of 1941/1942 by the spring/summer of 1942 German G4 estimated they could have supply lines fully built up and supported for follow on advances in the center to Moscow and south for operations past Kiev in 1942.

If you do some research instead of just making demands you would learn things....also look at the Dnepr Bridges if I remember right it was like the middle of 1942 or so before they able to get the bridge at Kiev rebuilt for railroad use. So any advance past the Dnepr in 1941 should have no railroad support at all as they had no railroad bridges. Apparently rebuilding railroad capable bridges over the Dnepr was quite the engineering undertaking in the 1940s.

If you look at historical German logistics records you will see this is pretty much exactly what happened to German logistics and why going into operations past these point the German army ran into huge issues with supply. Also Ammunition production even because an issue later in the campaign as the fighting was much harder than predicted and German home ammunition production wasn't up to the task. Thus you have limited ability to even use German artillery at different points in operations...not to mention the massive fuel issues.

The only reason German ops continued past the G4 logistics break points is the German army/motorized formations began to use their transportation trucks to go back to the railheads for supplies. If remember right at points you had intrinsic trucks going like 500 km back to railheads for supplies. Which is insanity in 1940s trucks....as you would have to refuel the trucks a couple times on the route back and forth burning up even more fuel supplies just to haul the supplies.

Not to mention the wear and tear on the trucks which then basically had completely destroyed German mobility by the winter of 1941...for anything but select divisions. The Germans didn't de-motorize most of their divisions because they wanted to, they did it because they had to because they destroyed so many of their own trucks in 1941.

(in reply to chuckfourth)
Post #: 111
RE: How to fix the game. - 9/29/2019 11:28:02 AM   
chuckfourth

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline
Ok chaos45 very interesting but about as relevant as the temperature on Mars.
You say Centre runs out of supplies past Smolensk well I'm talking about turn 3 that's BEFORE you get to Smolensk not past. Pay attention please.
I haven't mentioned Army group south once, so not relevant.
So please try to keep up, if you have something relevant I am all ears.
Here's what you should be focused on
Three Army group Centre and North panzer corps out of supply on turn 3 well before they get to Smolensk or Leningrad. that's out of supply in the first month of Barbarossa, preposterous my friend.

G4 calculation non doubt are based on the Russians resisting the German advance so if the Russians politely retiring for a few hundreds mile as happens in the Game then these predictions are worthless.

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 112
RE: How to fix the game. - 9/30/2019 9:45:17 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 117
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
Oh dear, the circus is back in town and the clown is out of control with access to the internet.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Hanny
Its very simple.

It is?, a simple explanation is that your innumerate, incompetent and ignorant.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
While the vehicle pool is Full, it's the first week (or even the third) of the game, and the Russians are running away, it is very clear the Germans should get the maximum possible supply RANGE according to the capabilities of the various vehicles or convoys, they dont. far from it Ive proved this already.

Fact free. further the two things you demonstrated was your inability to count, and ignorance of what to count.

In a 24 hour period a truck can forward lift its 3 ton cargo to a range of 300 klm. ID using its internal MT for logistical resupply can therfore in a days forward march perform 60klm round trip 5 times to bring around 15 tons to its parent units to then be distributed along the 20klm frontage the parent unit is spread over. By week three the ID is 18*30= 540klm from base of supply, the internal MT therfore has to cover 1100 klm round trip, and can deliver 3 tons every 3/4 days. Or in other words its reduced to 25% of capcity by distance. Its range is a constant 300klm in 24 hours, its capacity to forward lift is what changes, where the distance from depot to end user changes. The range as you descibe it, is a constant, and is reduced by the time and distance to move to the end user.

So thats why the GTR was increased to moved supplies and creat depots closer to the fighting units who could not only follow the rail which delivered it from the reich. Game does this by use of rail conversion and is over generous to the supply as it does not allow for single line 12 daily trains capacity 24 trains double line capacity and so on. Each train had a standard tonnage of pre packed military supplies, of fuel munition etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
You and most other posters are conflating supply range and amount. If half the truck fleet is missing the remaining trucks will deliver half as much but to the same RANGE, the same distance as the full complement of trucks would.


Fact free. Several posters ( one at least who performs logistics in the modern military, another who lectures on military logistics) have pointed out how maths works, your incapable of understanding the math or the explanation, so they give up and moved on.

As for your latest ignorant posting, its mathamaticlty incorrect, logically unsupportable and merely the musings of a inferior mind.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
German MTV and Russian MTV used different grades of fuel, they were not interchangeable
I think you made that up. Show me a reference please.

Using the quote function too difficult for you?
The reason you think others make up common knowledge ww2 references (or in this instance basic combustion knowledge) is because your posting about things you have no education in, knowledge of, and inability to find in a book or the net.
SU in ww2 used 4 grades of Motor gas, plus a number of avgas grades, the lowest of which was usable as mogas by German MTV, all mogas had a far lower octane level than western European engines could run on and required additives to bring the octane level up high enough to use in engines. Germany had this ability at corps level by 42, but did have an ad hoc ability in 41 to use one type of SU Aviation gas that when mixed with German motor gas allowed motor engines to operate at a lower capacity.This of course worked both ways as SU could not interchange captured German fuel without knowing what additives to add to make it usable.
Soviet account: from "Technical Support of Armoured Forces in the Vistula-Oder Operation" is that they could not use captured enemy fuel dumps until they had been tested for octane rating, water contamination, type of fuel, etc which was done by the Army laboratory but took some time to find out if the fuel was usable.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
OK so my point is this. The Russian has withdrawn so there are NO battles and NO skirmishes. So no need for ammunition resupply whatsoever.


Oh dear, you forgot to attack on turn one so there was no combat. Your point is your incompetent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
I've already clearly shown that in the first few weeks of the campaign the game rail repair rate is easily less than half historical, FACT.

Nope bullshit is not a fact.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Correct. Good point, lets look at it.
So it all depends on how many trucks they have, so what 1 gross truppen can deliver in a day 7 gross truppen can deliver in a week did they have enough trucks for this probably in the first few weeks of the campaign, yes, especially as no ammo needed to be brought forward because dont forget this is all in the context of the Russian running away. So how much tonnage do we save if no Ammo expended?

Your link does not contain the data to answer the question. It refers to this book https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kr2Gc7btCxEC&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&dq=14+aok+april+1944&source=bl&ots=USphncPGtv&sig=ACfU3U37SQURLPvlzHJfT39PyvK5sPLPtA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiN3pG87PfkAhVvThUIHeabBJwQ6AEwC3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=14%20aok%20april%201944&f=false
This book also explain how much logistical support a QM had for each formation.
It refers to 43 when Divs had 2/3rds the manpower at full strength as they all lost a Regimnet due to inability to replace losses suffered in 41 and the TOE of a Div changed. See note 22, April 3 the QM put requirements at 1500 tons a day, April 15 1350 tons a day. The military situation was that they were in heavy combat defensively, drawing local food and fodder from one of the richest agricultural regions of Italy, and were sat on a rail network with 55000 tons a day capacity.
Meanwhile back in reality on the eastern front, none of that existed in the first weeks of barbarossa.
The 1941 munition supplies reaching the Eastern front by month. Source:Germany and WWII Tome
June :23077 tons
July :101594
August:118855
September: 107870
October:90563
November:68035

Which yields per Div per day.
June 5
July 22
Aug 26
Sept 23
Oct 20
Nov 15
The answer to your question, how much tonnage is saved in no munitions expended on Eastern front, is to be found in the QM reports for 41 from the eastern front, not from Italy in 1943. For the first month its 5 tons a day.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
So if you are advancing without opposition, your supply requirement drops by about a third because NO ammunition is expended.

Not what your link data supports, you simply made that up. In 43 in Italy they were holding/defending in a pre prepared defensive position, supplied by a local rail net of extreme capacity and able to draw on local food fodder. In Western Poland, in 41, none of that was present, they were marching 30klm a day and had no time to live of the land as its all consumed in marching.
We have the munition expenditure per div in 41 for EF, and its so far from your made up number as to leave readers to conclude your incompetent, numerate, ignorant. Or simply being dishonest.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
So lets look at some ball park figures,
Ok so how much does a German division need? look at post 65 here.

What was wrong with the QM report from 43 Italy?, it had 1500 tons for 7 formation, each if at full strength are 67% of a 1. Welle 41 EF formation. In other words, 280 tons for a full strength 41 and 210 for a full strength 43 (ignores this is using an actual QM request based on actual strength not a theoretical full strength 41 and 43 ID). The link you used guesses 200 at the lowest, and could increase to 400 if unable to live of the land. Why link to SU 44 ID requiring 275 tons with half the manpower of German 41 Division and not expect readers to understand your being dishonest.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
A days marching... averaged 300km, but at times individual performances achieved almost twice as much.
So that's 186 miles so 18 hexes a day, NOT 10. With the possibility of 36 hexes under duress, IN A DAY. So if there is a desperate need to get the supplies forward it can be done.
Now look at post number 12 where it is revealed GTR has a lift capacity of about 67055 tons at the beginning of barbarossa,

Fact free, humans marching speed has never allowed 300 klm a day, for the good and sufficient reason that its physical impossible to perform. Your maths is based on a fantasy, rubbish in, rubbish out.
Post 12 is correct. It does not contain that a third of that tonnage, is expected to be in maintenance at any point in time. Your other link contains that that but you ignore its meaning.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Lets do some simple math,
150 infantry divisions marching forward, each needs a minimum of 110 tons because no Russian opposition like in the game.

You pulled 150 ID out of your arse, Let alone that third of the mnapower on the EF was not even ina di sized unit but still had to be logisticly supplied by the GTR, there were no 150 ID at start of Barbarrosa. You invented 110 tons, when linking to data that provides 400 tons requirements for marching 3 mph for 10 hours a day. You also linked to 280 tons requirement for static defence.
The GTR was raised from 19,000 used in 1940 France to 60,000 tonnes capacity for the EF operation, while the demand for 102 infantry and 33 motorized divisions was 32,000 tonnes a day, which would indicate that the lorries could support the army up to 300 km from the depots. The 24 trains a day for each Heeresgruppe represented 32,000 tonnes of supplies, which confirms these figures; however, this represented only fuel, ammunition, and limited food/fodder, making no allowance for replacement men, horses, or equipment. Later in the war, a Heeresgruppe would require 75 trains a day simply for ‘normal’ operations, while heavy fighting could raise this to over 100 trains.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
67055/150 well they have 440 tons each to play with, so easy enough to account for some extra rations for the Armoured divisions, and they can deliver it out to 18 hexes maybe even 36 because it is week three, the roads are still in good nick and if they arn't there are BATTALIONS of construction troops the sole purpose of which is to fix the roads.



Roads in good nick?, its the roads that destroyed the engines, filters clogged with fine soil and there was not enough engine oil to clean them out, so trucks and AFV fell out of use ata staggering level. In 1941/2 for the Eastern front there were 6 Eisenbahntruppe Regimnets of 2 Bttns Regiments, plus a total of 65500 in 41 rising to 89151 in 42 of labouers from Todt to do the manual work. 65500 workers for all road/bridge construction repair in 41.
Week 3 ID marching at 30 klicks a day puts them, 540 klm in country, with a days rest a week. Rail conversion has moved at 20 klicks a day and is now 360 klicks in country.
150*110 ( made up number used to show you your innumerate) is a daily requirement of 16500 tons.
By day 21 the ID are 180 klicks beyond the rail conversion. In game it therefore allows supply from the converted rail head.
Truck at 10 hours at 30klm an hour is 300 klm forward lift in 24 hours. GTR in 24 hours from rail head to supply dumps for ID to draw from, by day 21 the entire 45000 tonnage of the GTR delivers its cargo, to be drawn on by the ID. Clearly supply exceeds demand. However if we use the 400 from the link, we find it does not.
In reality the rail head is still back in Poland, and the GTR is operating from there in a daisy chain forward, and supply cannot equal demand. game does not model this.
But wait, the GTR is not just for the Heer, its for everything in the east, the LW alone requires over half of the GTR to provide its logistical requirements, so no matter what math is used, there is not the capacity to lift the logistics forward by GTR.

Pzr coprs Qm supply situation:
21 july 41 LIII Corps, QM report "The munition consignment for this Division is for a war of rapid manoeuvrer, the necessary munitions for position warfare are lacking"
22 July QM XXIV Corps report, "Supply levels critical"
24 July QM XXXXIV Report, "Supply levels critical"
24 July QM XXXXVI Report, "Supply levels critical"
24 July QM XXXXVII Report, "Supply levels tight"

24 July Guderian reports munition supply are coming from 440klm away by truck. ( which means resupply of 16 combat loads to planned expenditure of 32)
28 July AGC report " A collapse of the soviets for the time being is not to be expected. Because they are so tough their tactical methods cannot be predicted. The human resources of the country are said to be an infinite resource that cannot be reduced. Accordingly more emphasis should be placed on the seizure of industrial centres which are said to be arming the masses"
28 July Pzr group QM complains that only 45 replacement tank engines per month are aviable for the entire eastern front. Guderian corps had started with 953 AFV and was reduced to 286 AFV on 29th July. Of these, 135 were Pzr III, 38 PzrIV the rest PzrI and PzrII.
Any hope of a renewed offensive would have to depend on an improvement in the railways for which Wagner's promises never matched reality. In August Army Group Centre needed at least 24 trains a day just to cover day-to-day consumption; in the first half of the month barely half that number arrived. Thereafter Wagner promised an increase to first 30 and then 35 trains a day to establish adequate magazines for the next stage of the advance, but in practice only about 18 trains a day came through. -barbarossa and Germany Defeat in the East, Pg 406.
AGC started with c6666 Grosstruppen trucks, 45 ID each with a 30 ton MT lift is 10 trucks each (6666+450=6711) means 6711 trucks on the road net, road net to east of smolensk from Minsk base of supply, is 275 mile.
6711 trucks * 60 yards is 402660
275 miles is 484000 yards
Road capacity is 85% taken up by supply trucks, moving up to east of Smolensk are 15 ID, each ID requires 24 miles of road net, (15*24=360 miles= 633600 yards)
Not enough road net for both.
The logistics branch of the OKH was blunt in its prediction for another advance from smolensk to moscow: ( supply branch of the OKH warned Brauchitsch, Halder and Bock) 'if the intensity of fighting and the operational rythm was to be similar to that of the summer campaign, the supply system would be able to cover a bit over 50% of AGC's needs for a space of time of two weeks. More than that, and the system would collapse and the it would be able to deliver just between 10-20% of the total load of supplies needed'.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Now don't forget that 110 figure includes everything. But of course every time they capture a town or city its FULL of petrol, diesel, water, food and fodder all of wich no longer needs to come from the railhead.
If they have to fight forward we get a figure of 200 tons/division a day. Still easily done out of 440 available a day.

Fact free.
Halder tells us for AGC in July 13000 tons of supply required daily, but only 6500 arrived at the rail heads, of that 5000 or so makes it to the Divisions requiring it each day.
Ewald von Kleist
Russia also lacked railways, we were unable to bring up supplies to our advancing troops.
Blumentritt
On the Moscow route, the principal line of advance, they repeatedly held on long enough to be encircled, The badness of the roads became our worst handicap, Faulty intel1igence had underestimated Soviet strength, The restoration of railway traffic became delayed by the change of gauge beyond the
Russian frontier. The supply problem in the Russian campaign became a very serious problem, complicated by local conditions.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Ok here's something else wrong in the game supply setup, look at the same site, last post, post 21. The number of trucks in the army inventory during barbarossa went UP over the campaign not down like in the game.
By 1943 the tonnage GTR carried had got to 80000 tons, see post 3.

67k was the GTR authorised on EF for 41, 80k was for 43 for the entire Heer. Rarely did it ever have its authorised strength. Wagner gaqve the in service numbers to Halder, who gives them to us and is why the numbers in game reflect the historical records of how many trucks the Germans had.
Tonnage went up, munitions consumed went up, German Munitions production by year.
1940 865000
1941 540000
1942 1270000
1943 2258000
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
A German division contains its own 30 ton transport column and a 25 cubic mtr POL column so there is another 125 miles a day for 30t of supply from the divisions end. So, if a static German infantry Division can live on 30 tons a day it should be fully supplied at 36 or maybe 72 hexes from the rail head. Given good roads and weather. Also if it is fighting using 200 tonnes a day then that still gives a range of 200/30 = 7 so range becomes 125/7 = 18 so whatever the GTR range is we need to add the Division own supply range of minimum 2 hexes.


ID has internal 30t MT to bring supplies from depots to formations requiring it. ID marches 30klm forward, its internal MT in that day travails to depot and back, min of 60 klm if the ID starts at a depot, however you have posted its 180 klm from a converted rail line, by week 3, so its 180 klm from a depot, making it a 390 klm round trip, taking 10 hours for a single round trip Which is a 30 ton a day delivery of logistical support for the 150 ID in your example.
If otoh its day 1 the MT can do a round trip of 60klm from depot to ID who has marched 30 klicks forward, and repeat the process 5 times giving 150 tons per ID before using up its 300klm daily forward lift capacity. Clearly on day 1 an ID can supply the 110 from a depot the ID is on, but not otherwise, as the ID moves from the depot, by 21 it can only supply 30 tons. As an ID requires vastly more than 110, the scale of the problem increases.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
MattFL calling me a Lying Bitch says a lot more about you than it does about me. If you are that frightened of fighting the Germans just play a different game.


Er he called you out for being dishonest. Thats you willing to be dishonest, says enough about you.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Ok so I have the played version1.12.00, 191-45 Campaign, Logistics set to 400 transport set to 400. At the start of turn three Army Group North's two Panzer Corps are up near Tallin, Army Group Centres five panzer Corps are at the gates of Vitebsk and their movement factors are all in the low teens i.e. they are out of supply. So in two turns the game has turned the Blitzkrieg into the Sitzkrieg. 7 panzer corps are going to sit around for a WEEK after just two weeks of moving forward with little if any fighting. Here's an excerpt from my previous post 64 in this same thread.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=51767
Have a look at the 9th post on this forum. For army group Centre, Rail to Baranovichi by 1st July that's 16 hexes hexes fixed in two weeks twice what the game allows. Minsk by 5th July that's 24 hexes by week 2 that's 5 times what the game allows. by mid July guaranteed 14 trains a day to Minsk, that's 4 weeks for 24 hexes, the game allows less than 16 hexes in the same time. So historically they had 98 trains a week arriving in Minsk by week 4, that's 441000 tons of supply a week. In week 4 in the game your still two weeks away from even fixing the rail as far as Minsk. Smolensk by the end of July, that's 45 hexes in 6 weeks. Overall then army group Centre historically fixed 7 rail hexes per week. The game allows, considering terrain less than 4 per week.
None of the hacks in this forum have disputed the truth of this comments.


Because readers are embarrassed for you, you link to data that does not say what you say it says.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
No panzer corps waited around for a week for supplies in week three of barbarossa, after the mud sure.


Day 4 AG Pzr Group was holding a river line at Dvina well ahead of the advancing Inf Armys, it was criticaly short of munitions, so sent all its internal MT under heavy guard back to gain supplies, and was almost annihilated by a soviet counter attack, the Pzr group lost all its trucks, 2 Inf armies had all their MT confiscated to replace it reducing their advance to regain the logistical ability of the Pzr corps. 2 inf armies and a Pzr corps mobilised in week 1.
You really ought not to be allowed to use the net.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
OK instead of spouting truisms how about some facts?
You tell us WHEN G4 predicted the German spearheads would run out of supplies, was it in week 3?

He well known posted facts, you are ignorant of them, and what they mean, which is funny as you have linked to those facts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Your underlying assumption that German supply should be based on fighting forward doesn't hold at the start of the game because the Russian CAN safely withdraw, exactly because the railhead range restrictions stop the Germans on turn 3. The Russian doesn't have to fight, the Railhead supply rules do the fighting for him.
As for 25-35 tank TOE numbers by week 3 this is not a valid comparison, that number is after the Germans FOUGHT forward for 3 weeks The game situation if the Russian withdrawals is that these 7 panzer corps have done no fighting and so have a TOE around 90% You can only use the Historical values you sight if both sides actually follow the historical script. If the Russians withdraw instead of fight ALL those historical constraints you mention go out the window, and the Russian always withdraws because the railhead range restrictions do the fighting for him, no matter what, the German will always arrive exhausted at the start of turn 3. In reality If the Russians had withdrawn then the German would have been hot on their heels with plenty of supply.

Not an assumption, its from the QM/Halder reports of how many trucks the GTR had lost due to mechanical and combat, the number lost in combat is under 1% of all GTR lost to all causes. The gam,e uses historical numbers to represent logistical reality.
Another of your many problems is your not familiar with reality and prefer to make up any old crap you like. This game is not for you, as the innumerate, incompetent and ignorant are not the target audience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
Three Army group Centre and North panzer corps out of supply on turn 3 well before they get to Smolensk or Leningrad. that's out of supply in the first month of barbarossa, preposterous my friend.

Except thats is what the QM reports of those formations show to have been the reality. Just as the pre war planning predicted XXIVPanzerCorps reported ‘Every panzer is only provisionally fit for service. As a result of oil shortages no oil changes can be undertaken. If the panzers are committed to a large-scale operation in their current condition then the total loss of most must be expected"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuckles the Clown
You say Centre runs out of supplies past Smolensk well I'm talking about turn 3 that's BEFORE you get to Smolensk not past. Pay attention please.

Nothing wrong with his post, problems all with you and your ignorance.

halder diary, page 203 6th July AGC requires 21 trains a day. Page 242 Wagner gaurentes 14 @6300 tons. Page 246 what that translates into combat loads."To meet all supply requirements we have available: As of 18 July, 14 trains; 22 trains are necessary to catch up with the three Armies into the areas newly occupied".

Ie between 6th and 18th July 14*12=168 promised, 146 delivered.
So 6th AGC requires 21*12 days.
QM promises 14 a day, 14*12=168
QM delivers 146/12= 12 a day, =146.
32,000/24 =1333
AGC 21*12 =252*1333=335916 tons.
QM promises 168*1333=223944 tons
QM delivers=146*1333= 194618 tons.
AGC requires 335916
QM delivers 194618
58% of requirement met.

Pre war logistical planning ( Marcks and Paulus road/rail/logistical study) showed that after 20 days logistical effort, to support an operational bound of 300 miles in which Russian forced were to be destroyed and the war won) supplies would drop to 10-20% of requirements and an operational pause would result, so as to build up supplies for any further offensives.

Dont consider this a debate, your clearly a moron, and im just highlighting the worst of your errors as i had an hour to kill.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 9/30/2019 3:56:54 PM >

(in reply to chuckfourth)
Post #: 113
RE: How to fix the game. - 9/30/2019 9:47:09 AM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

According to prewar vs Russia G4 estimates the only prong of the 3 prong German offensive that could be supplied as it advanced was the advance on Leningrad. The center would outrun supply lines for any advance past Smolensk and the south would outrun supply lines for any advance past Kiev.

The German G4 recommended that the German Army capture Leningrad in 1941 halt at a Smolensk/Dnepr line for the winter of 1941/1942 by the spring/summer of 1942 German G4 estimated they could have supply lines fully built up and supported for follow on advances in the center to Moscow and south for operations past Kiev in 1942.

If you do some research instead of just making demands you would learn things....also look at the Dnepr Bridges if I remember right it was like the middle of 1942 or so before they able to get the bridge at Kiev rebuilt for railroad use. So any advance past the Dnepr in 1941 should have no railroad support at all as they had no railroad bridges. Apparently rebuilding railroad capable bridges over the Dnepr was quite the engineering undertaking in the 1940s.

If you look at historical German logistics records you will see this is pretty much exactly what happened to German logistics and why going into operations past these point the German army ran into huge issues with supply. Also Ammunition production even because an issue later in the campaign as the fighting was much harder than predicted and German home ammunition production wasn't up to the task. Thus you have limited ability to even use German artillery at different points in operations...not to mention the massive fuel issues.

The only reason German ops continued past the G4 logistics break points is the German army/motorized formations began to use their transportation trucks to go back to the railheads for supplies. If remember right at points you had intrinsic trucks going like 500 km back to railheads for supplies. Which is insanity in 1940s trucks....as you would have to refuel the trucks a couple times on the route back and forth burning up even more fuel supplies just to haul the supplies.

Not to mention the wear and tear on the trucks which then basically had completely destroyed German mobility by the winter of 1941...for anything but select divisions. The Germans didn't de-motorize most of their divisions because they wanted to, they did it because they had to because they destroyed so many of their own trucks in 1941.


Nice post, you have been at the Glantz and Stahl books i see, and you are the target audience of the game.

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 114
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/3/2019 12:29:25 AM   
chuckfourth

 

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Hi Hanna very interesting, so a few questions for you.
When the Germans captured Minsk how much extra tonnage of supplies do you think that the Germans now have access to?
What are the four grades of Motor gas and what were they used for? I still think you are lying about the fuel situation, If you don't answer this question I will be sure.
The panzer corps don't need to fight on turn 1, the infantry can open up the front so they can stream through unhindered, its called blitzkrieg if you need to look it up.
I am not saying Italian and Eastern fronts are the same I am using this good Italian data set to justify that ammunition was about one third of supply tonnage. Forget your stupid 5 average, what percentage of supply tonnage do you think is ammunition for a unit fighting?
The quote I reference uses marching in the sense of a vehicles column march this is abundantly clear if you read the link idiot.
Two of your panzer corps are infantry corps. Its me that is dishonest is it? Clearly any corps that has just finished fighting a battle will be low on supplies, the question is for how long? The fact that you think that 7 panzer corps just driving forward unopposed are all guaranteed to be out of supply by week 3 for an entire week is fine seems a very good measure of your logistical genius.
As for the rest, I realize supply was tight, but what there was went to the panzer corps where it was needed, this is impossible to accomplish in the game, we need a unit resupply button and a rework of the supply system which in case you haven't noticed is what WITE2 is.
If you had an education you would know that when you quote a source you put the quotes around the text from the source not the title of the source. That's source where it comes from not what you put on your fries.
So you haven't quoted from Technical Support of Armoured Forces in the Vistula-Oder Operation, just supplied your own warped interpretation, as usual. But anyway when you say "they could not use captured enemy fuel dumps" who is they?
And lastly can you point to any partisan activity in army groups souths area?

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 115
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/3/2019 1:17:46 AM   
chuckfourth

 

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Ok so Chaos45 I must admit I was too hasty replying to your post, upon reflection I find that it is in fact very relevant. You say "G4 estimates the only prong of the 3 prong German offensive that could be supplied as it advanced was the advance on Leningrad" this I find very interesting. This is because the Baltic states are not Russia though they are treated as though they are. So OK there is a better RRR but it remains less than half historical. The Baltic states had been Germanized over the years, don't forget Riga is the Home of the Teutonic knights and Prussia became part of Lithuania. The Baltic historically had used the German rail gauge, so it is not unlikely that there were coaling and watering stations at the right spacing. But more importantly the road network and infrastructure was of a European not Russian Standard and this is ignored in the game. It would be very good to include this with longer unpenalized supply from railhead in the Baltic. And of course the correct boundaries need to be used, giving the Baltic about 100 extra hexes. And its not just G4, don't forget Gen. Lt. a.D, Max Bork a Branch Chief in the Transportation Division says there were always sufficient supplies in the Baltic sphere.
The other critical point is this
"The center would outrun supply lines for any advance past Smolensk and the south would outrun supply lines for any advance past Kiev."
So currently the panzer corps outrun their supply BEFORE Smolensk and Kiev. BEFORE.
G4 is saying they should have adequate supply up to these distances, in the game they don't, they run out well before Smolensk, NOT after. IN the game they outrun there supply line BEFORE they were supposed to.

Demotoring the other divisions tells you they used those trucks to supply the armored spearheads, this tells you they had plenty of trucks up to week 3. So the week 3, 7 armored corps compulsory one week holiday is even less believable.

(in reply to chuckfourth)
Post #: 116
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/3/2019 4:26:19 AM   
chuckfourth

 

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Hi Morvael I remain worried WITE2 will have the same supply problems as WITE1. I worry that your ignoring my question means WITE2 will be not much different to WITE1. Question being do you think it would be good to have a unit resupply button working the same as unit refit button so player can decide where to send supplies? (with appropriate distance modifiers)
also
If supply is limited in WITE2 will we get the correct historic rail repair rates? and for that matter a historic amount of supply?
Are you amenable to removing the German first turn surprise rule?

You give two justifications for German supply being ahistoric or as I like to say nerfed.
That rail in unlimited, this doesn't apply because in WITE2 rail is limited? so wont be a problem in WITE2. so wont be a justification for German supply nerfing in WITE2
Your second justification is that short term vehicle loss isn't modeled, well this effects the Russians just the same as the Germans (Especially as the Russians are also "fast moving ... mobile units") but to the rear. So this also doesn't justify nerfing German supply because it applies equally to both sides. In fact using this as a justification to nerf German supply actually disadvantages the Germans because even though the Russians also don't have "short term vehicle loss" they don't receive a penalty for not having it like the Germans do.
That leaves actually no justification for German supply being ahistoric.
I still suggest policy should be to make supply realistic/historic, and remove surprise rule. If there is still playbalance problems then lower German CV and the effects of Good leaders because these two values are somewhat intangible whereas the supply stuff is facts.
OK so at the moment open the front with infantry, run the panzers as far forward as you can in week 1 and 2 then in week 3 the cliff, every panzer spearhead all across the front halt for 1 week you may as well start the game in week 4.
I think you are losing a lot of potential German players because Blitzkrieg actually isn't possible in the game as it stands. And that's what it should be about.

(in reply to chuckfourth)
Post #: 117
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/3/2019 1:04:49 PM   
Red Lancer


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I'm sure Morvael won't mind me pointing out that he isn't really involved in WitE2 development.

@chuckfourth - I can assure you that the WitE2 logistics model is more historically accurate but based on your posts I wouldn't expect you to like it given your interpretation of history and understanding of military logistics.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to chuckfourth)
Post #: 118
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/3/2019 3:31:50 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1741
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The German G4s estimates were for the entire 1941 campaign. That is where you misunderstand the facts. By Fall/winter 1941 those are the lines the German G4 estimated being able to fully supply.

The German G4/logistics division advise no advances past those points due to supply issues that would persist into the Winter of 1941/42. Allow the Railroad construction to reach those points and finish the campaign in 1942.

You also really don't understand German trucks/trucking situation in 1941....these aren't Deuce and halves like the allies have in spades...these are small often small production run trucks or light trucks in effect. As they were built to mainly haul around 8-10 man infantry units not haul huge, heavy loads of supply.

So your overall supply gain per truck when its traveling hundreds of kilometers and refueling itself is going to be quite minimal esp when you consider the massive amounts of fuel, food, and ammunitions required by even 1 panzer division. Then you also have repair parts, recovering the roads littered with broken trucks which takes more trucks.....

Army logistics is an extremely complex weave of issues. So once you overrun your supply lines you can subsist with extreme measures for awhile but those will slowly fail until you are left immobile.

The Allies in fall/winter 1944 with a much more robust and better organized supply system ran into this same issue...as trucks alone couldn't not near meet their supply requirements. Also with a much smaller army than the Germans had in Russia.

(in reply to chuckfourth)
Post #: 119
RE: How to fix the game. - 10/3/2019 7:36:09 PM   
Shalkai

 

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Handy and Chaos45 - thank you for good posts with even more information about historical supply limitations and how the Germans saw things and dealt with them. Good stuff, only some of which I’d read about elsewhere. :)

Morvael and Red Lancer, thank you for reading and participating, as well as giving us information on improvements that will be part of WitE2 - looking forward to that greatly!

It seems most following this thread are in general agreement that German logistics was historically hampered by numerous factors, and that WitE does a decent job simulating this even with a simplified supply model. The original poster strongly disagrees, and perhaps a few others. Original poster seems unwilling to consider and synthesize all the new data presented here, so the arguing will never be resolved. Nonetheless, the many sources cited are educational and informative.

My thanks to you all. :)

(in reply to chaos45)
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