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RE: How to fix the game. - 6/18/2019 11:55:23 AM   
joelmar


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Yeah, you're right, I have been most unwise I should shut my big mouth, which I will do of course ;-)

I will leave you with Blumentritt, a veteran of 2 WW on the eastern front:

"It was appalingly difficult country for tank movement - great virgin forests, widespread swamps, terrible roads and bridges not strong enough to bear the weight of tanks. The resistance also became stiffer, and the Russians began to cover their front with minefields. It was easier for them to block the way because there were so few roads. The great motor highway leading from the frontier to Moscow was unifinished - the one road a westerner would call a 'road'... such a country was bad enough for tanks, but worst still for the transport accompanying them - carrying their fuel, their supplies and all the auxiliary troops they needed. Nearly all this transport consisted of wheeled vehicles which could not move off the roads, nor move on it if the sand turned into mud. And hour or 2 of rain reduced the panzer forces to stagnation. It was an extraordinary sight, with groups of them being stung out over a hundrer-mile-stretch, all stuck - until the sun came out and the ground dried. Hoth was delayed by swamps as well as bursts of rain."

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RE: How to fix the game. - 6/18/2019 12:25:25 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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I can't help to post this here




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 6/18/2019 12:28:41 PM >


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RE: How to fix the game. - 6/18/2019 12:31:26 PM   
joelmar


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@Evk: +1

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RE: How to fix the game. - 6/18/2019 1:12:40 PM   
Red Lancer


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It appears we are now reading the same sources. The roads on the WitE2 map are much better in the Baltic States.

On rail repair you are looking at the advance through the Baltic States as well where things were much faster. WitE has rules to factor this in. I haven't played WitE in a while but I seem to remember the RRC cost was 1 MP. In WitE2 we have a random damage algorithm and we have tested against the figures you quote. The same swift advance of the rails was not the same for Army Groups Centre and South.

I agree that the Germans would have set up their own fuel dumps but as they have to get the fuel there in the first place the limiting factor comes backs to the trucks as the dumps don't miraculously appear.

I'll try and use another analogy to show what happens with supply. If you have an average bath full of water and you are not connected to the mains water supply then you can hold about 80 Litres of water. All you have on hand is that 80 litres. So if two people want a bath they are either sharing or one person goes without.

If you have mains water on tap then the fill rate is about 6 Litres per Minute - so you can have a new bath every 15 minutes if you want as you have almost unlimited supply. If you don't and you have to fill the bath with two 10 Litre bucket then you have to make 4 trips to fill the Bath. Let's say for arguments sake that the round trip with a bucket takes 15 minutes - so you can have a bath every hour! 4 times slower than if you had mains/unlimited supply.

This is what I mean by throughput - as the bath has limited capacity the important factor is how fast you can refill it. If you look at fuel supply the capacity in the fuel tanks of the vehicles consuming the fuel (and their rate of consumption) is much more that can be held at any single given time by the forward depots (the bath) or the delivery system (bucket). Better still a chain of people passing buckets but you need more buckets. This is why for D-Day the Allies put a pipeline in from the UK called PLUTO.

The problem in Barbarossa is that the supply system could not keep up with the rate of consumption because the Units were using too much and advancing faster than they could be supplied. The lack of roads was not only turning the 15 minute round trip with your bucket of water into 20/30/45 minutes and buckets were breaking which reduced the capacity. That round trip was also increasing every day. What was then happening was that not only did you have to do a trip for water but also for a new bucket(spares) at the expense of water. As things were getting difficult and sweaty the water carriers wanted their own bath and a rest too. This further reduces throughput.

This is military logistics in a nutshell - the moment that you move away from supply on tap things get progressively more difficult. You quote: "Over limited distances (200 to 300 miles), however, truck transportation could temporarily assume the railroad's supply function." What that quote doesn't mention is for how long....what happened is that they broke the supply system very quickly. This is why the game uses the numbers it does. A huge amount of time and effort - research, coding and testing goes into these games to try and replicate history. We do make every effort to be historic. Please trust us that we have got it as close as we can given the limits in the game engine. WitE2 is even better but logistically Barbarossa and the East was a nightmare.




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Post #: 64
RE: How to fix the game. - 6/28/2019 9:53:55 AM   
chuckfourth

 

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OK, very good, so in WitE2 army group north will be able to achieve the historical rail repair rate of 16 hexes per turn? (82 hexes repaired by end week 5) on average?
You say that WitE1 has rules to factor this in but not really, you can only fix 6 hexes per turn, well short of the historical achievement of 16.
Sure Logistics was a nightmare but not for Army group North and not at the start of the campaign, after all don't forget Gen. Lt. a.D, Max Bork a Branch Chief in the Transportation Division says Group North's road network was good enough to "meet all demands"

Correct that reference doesn't say how long the trucks can replace the rail head but other references agree that the distance they could do that was about 200-300 miles. So, how long could they fully supply the army 300 miles from the railhead? Clearly at least a week. The Germans never had better supply than in week one. So the Game should START with the unpenalised supply range from a rail head of 30 hexes. Then each week lose a hex or two in range until we get down to the minimum somewhere around 20 hexes, still twice what you now have.

So throughput is the number of locomotives or trucks on a route or capacity? well not a great shortage of these early in the campaign I would think. I mean that earlier quote from van creveld seems a bit suspicious to me. They lost 25 per cent of grosstransportraum by day 19 so 50% by day 38?, all out of trucks by day 76? It just doesn't add up.

I had a dig around and actually I do have some maps of Russian roads as it turns out, in
"German Report Series Terrain factors in the Russian campaign"
Here is what their maps tell us. Roads are classified into Rollbahn,1st class, 2nd class and others. The First map from June 41 shows a Rollbaun running east west through Pruzhany to Slonim it then travels east. There is also a First class road going east to Slutzk and another to Pinsk. They mention in the text that the 255th divisions mission was to open up the "Vlodava-Maloryta-Korin highway"(70 miles) not the Vlodava-Maloryta-Korin farmtrack. The text also describes the road between Brest Litovsk and Slonim as a Rollbaun Highway of 110 miles . The second Map is from July 41 and shows a1st class road running north from Gomel to Orsha and West from Gomel in the direction of Brest Litovsk. It also shows a Rollbaun running all the way from Slutzk to Roslaval. A third map from October 41 of the Bryansk area shows a Rollbahn running west to Roslaval and east to Orel. A 1st class road runs north to Kirov. Two 1st class roads radiate out from Roslaval and a Rollbaun south west all the way to Slutzk. That is quite a lot of quite good roads. So it would appear there are usually "first class" roads running between the major centres.

OK so Rail repair rate not so good in Centre and South as in North, agreed, but see
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=51767
Have a look at the 9th post on this forum. For army group Centre, Rail to Baranovichi by 1st July that's 16 hexes hexes fixed in two weeks twice what the game allows. Minsk by 5th July that's 24 hexes by week 2 that's 5 times what the game allows.
by mid July guaranteed 14 trains a day to Minsk, that's 4 weeks for 24 hexes, the game allows less than 16 hexes in the same time. So historically they had 98 trains a week arriving in Minsk by week 4, that's 441000 tons of supply a week. In week 4 in the game your still two weeks away from even fixing the rail as far as Minsk. Smolensk by the end of July, that's 45 hexes in 6 weeks. Overall then army group Centre historically fixed 7 rail hexes per week. The game allows, considering terrain less than 4 per week. not enough!

On throughput or capacity, same reference.
"On 15 July 1941, the quartermaster general reviewed the supply status of, Army Group Center in terms of its capabilities to continue offensive operations. He made it clear that the great rail head for continuing operations lay in the cities of Minsk and Molodecno, no longer on the prewar frontier. The army group then had 45,450 tons of 60-ton truck columns and, deducting one-third as inoperable at any time and in repair, still had approximately 30,700 tons available for continuous operations.{16} In mid-July 1941 the German army transportation chief guaranteed the substantial total of fourteen trains and 6,300 tons of supplies daily for the Minsk-Molodecno base. The quartermaster general averred that, based on the logistical situation of 15 July 1941, Army Group Center could conduct an offensive on Moscow with four panzer, three motorized infantry, and ten infantry divisions with appropriate army reserves, maintaining the remainder of the army group in static fighting around Smolensk. This logistical feat was moderately impressive for the middle of July, with enough trains arriving at the Minsk-Molodecno railroad and more than enough trucks to move a panzer group and an infantry army to Moscow. Meanwhile, the Germans were fighting the battle of Smolensk and would take two more weeks to finish the job and another week to tidy up operationally. The Germans used this time to build up logistic stockpiles at the rail head in the center of White Russia and regauge the main rail line from Minsk through Orsha into Smolensk{17}."

and this

" As early as 12 July 1941, the quartermaster general of the German army noted in a telephone call to the chief of staff that Army Group Center had enough supplies to maintain an armored drive to Moscow. He also notes that the infantry had only enough to get to Smolensk. It follows that as early as 12 July, the Germans were close to having logistics under control for a push almost straight through to Moscow. See Halder. Diaries, vol. 6. p. 231. "

Even if you do adjust road and rail supply to the correct historical levels you still can't conform to the Germans historical abilities because supply is allocated randomly. What you need to do is add a supply button to each counter that does exactly what the refit button does but for supply. This allows the German player to give the panzer corps enough supply to maintain momentum which is what they did. You can then drop the punitive Supply Buildup option just allocate the supply (subject to distance qualifiers) where it is needed in the first place.

Can you please take the time to read this reference as well?
https://www.hgwdavie.com/blog/2018/3/9/the-influence-of-railways-on-military-operations-in-the-russo-german-war-19411945 he says this,

"By the conclusion of the Smolensk battle in early August, it is clear that the supply situation was under strain, and despite over a month’s pause in operations, there were insufficient supplies to carry the units forward to Moscow" later the writer comments that in winter the supply situation fell over.
So I agree with the Supply nightmare in Winter, sure and serious in the mud, but up until August supply was OK. In the game supply is rubbish right from the start, not from august. All the spearheads runs out in week 3. Fix supply and the Russian has to fight forward and you have a game that starts in week 1.
This same reference also gives plenty of pertinent information on rail throughput.

I would also suggest you use the correct national boundary for the 3 Baltic states rather than the current slightly arbitrary zig zag boundary

Please dont invoke limits of the game engine as an excuse to have ahistorical German supply. The approach the game should take is to have the known historical facts accurate in the game, if that is done and play balance suffers that tells you that something else is wrong and that is what should be adjusted not the historical facts. Nerfing this and nerfing that to get what in the end is just someone's opinion of how operation Barbarossa should play is never going to end well.

Also from
https://www.allworldwars.com/Comments-on-Russian-Roads-and-Higways-by-Max-Bork.html

"The establishment of speedways for general automotive traffic and of special thoroughfares to be used only by tanks proved very effective in preserving motor vehicles and made possible a fairly smooth flow of traffic. There also was a definite correlation between the attrition of motor vehicles and the distance between the railheads and the combat units.
During the muddy season in the spring and fall, which usually lasted for eight weeks, a very heavy burden was placed on the railroad because most of the roads became impassable.
Whenever there was a lack of road repair crews, only a few main routes were kept open for traffic. Unimproved and poorly surfaced roads had to be closed to traffic. Wherever this measure was neglected, the roads became completely impassable, even on occasions during summer. Prior to closing these roads the Germans saw to it that a maximum amount of supplies for the duration of the muddy season was stockpiled at the front."

Partisans in Army Groups South's area nonexistent, is another interesting revelation, what are you thinking about that? perhaps this is another area you are familiar with Joelmar?

EwaldvonKleist, something is wrong in the game not the internet. If you became elite guard with posts of this quality... well no need to say any more really.

Bottom line is I am really looking forward to playing this game. But I just cant swallow the current supply situation.

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RE: How to fix the game. - 6/28/2019 12:21:47 PM   
Red Lancer


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You won't find the logistics in WitE2 any easier as you no longer have unlimited supply available from any working rail.

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Post #: 66
RE: How to fix the game. - 6/29/2019 12:20:31 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

...

So throughput is the number of locomotives or trucks on a route or capacity? well not a great shortage of these early in the campaign I would think. I mean that earlier quote from van creveld seems a bit suspicious to me. They lost 25 per cent of grosstransportraum by day 19 so 50% by day 38?, all out of trucks by day 76? It just doesn't add up.

...

Bottom line is I am really looking forward to playing this game. But I just cant swallow the current supply situation.


You've clearly never studied queueing theory have you? If you are going to make these sort of claims I'd suggest a least dip your toe into that field, it may help you interpret the sources that you think prove you are right.

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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/11/2019 3:57:38 AM   
chuckfourth

 

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John I don't want the Logistics to be any easier I would like them to be realistic.
Loki100 I have studied queuing theory. Rather than trying to frighten us with big words perhaps you could explain how it pertains to the points I have raised?

< Message edited by chuckfourth -- 7/11/2019 3:58:35 AM >

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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/11/2019 5:15:31 AM   
MattFL

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

xhoel et al please don't think I am unfamiliar with the game I've played it enough to see the German supply regime is severely(unhistorically) nerfed by the unpenalised Kraftwagenkolonnen range of 10 instead of 44.




Yes, sounds as if you've played it all the way to turn 3.

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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/16/2019 10:30:47 PM   
Shalkai

 

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chuckfourth, I'll try some explanations on a couple points where you seem to disagree with other posters and data.

First, an explanation of throughput reduction that you are extrapolating to 0% at 76 days...

Your extrapolation: 25% loss at day 19 > 50% loss at day 38 > 100% loss at day 76 (ten weeks). This is an incorrect formula to use. The Wehrmacht did not lose 25% of their starting total every 19 days, and thus had no transportation available at all after 76 days. Mathematically you are saying x = x(0) - 0.25t*x(0), where variable t is 19 days.

Simplified, but more realistic formula using your one base point of 25% reduction at 19 days....
x = x(0) * (0.75)^t [0.75 raised to the power t], where period of t is measured at 1 t = 19 days.

example: at 19 days, t=1, (0.75)^t = 0.75, and total grosstransportraum(a.k.a GTR) is thus 0.75 x original, or 75% of starting GTR.
.. at 38 days, t=2, (0.75)^t = 0.5625, and total GTR is thus 0.5625 original, or 56% of starting.
.. at 76 days, t=4, (0.75)^t = 0.3164, and total GTR is thus 0.3164 original, or 32% of starting.

Again, that equation is extremely simplified, but is using the proper type of exponential series to calculate a result.

The result of only 32% remaining usable is still not very accurate, but is a lot more accurate than 0%. For a better result, many more things have to be factored in...trucks getting repaired, new trucks being brought in, trucks stuck in the mud, trucks required to haul the fuel for other trucks to haul supplies, trucks to haul spare parts and tires for the fuel trucks for the supply trucks, etc., etc., ad nauseum. These are some of the things that the WitE game engine tries to factor into its calculations. I don't have all their formulas and data, but the game engine results are pretty close to matching historical evidence, certainly within a =/- 50% range (probably much better than that).

Some other points for you to consider...
AGN rail repair and throughput in the Baltics can NOT be used to extrapolate AGC/ACS rail lines. Baltic railroads were on the same European track gauge as the Germans used. They only had to repair bridges, switches, etc. then start rolling.

All other areas of the Soviet Union used the larger Russian track gauge. Every single meter of track had to be relaid before German railstock could use it. Conversion went much slower. Already modeled in the game.

This quantum difference is accounted for, modeled quite well, and plainly visible on the map as the 'Baltic Rail Zone'.

Another factor that impinged on both road and rail transport: Historical accounts from both sides relate how the Russians made it much harder to advance after the initial surprise wore off - roadblocks, mines, blown up bridges, etc. Already modeled in the game.

For another excellent, and extremely well-researched, example of the limits of long logistical supply lines, I refer you to the struggles of Gen. Patton's Third Army in France, July-Nov 1944. A 500km (300mi) truck-based supply chain does not give 100% desired supply deliveries - to anyone's army. (At least in a WWII setting)

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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/19/2019 10:40:21 AM   
chuckfourth

 

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MattFL Ive played the game past turn 3.
Shalkai OK I suggested no trucks by day 76 to make a point. That credlens quote is suspect precisely because it doesnt take into account the factors you mention, which leaves that quote in the rhelms of scaremongering for children.

Look I understand that WITE 1.0 'balanced' "Unlimited supply from any working railhead" by reducing Army Group Norths rail repair rate by about a third and Army Group Centre/South by a good half (Ive proved this is the amount of reduction above). This mechanism is crude and doesnt work, ie by week 3 the armoured spearheads are sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

So I welcome the loss of unlimited supply as long as WITE 2.0 incorporates the correct capacity (volumes) supplied here
https://www.hgwdavie.com/blog/2018/3/9/the-influence-of-railways-on-military-operations-in-the-russo-german-war-19411945
This then needs to be combined with a unit "try to give me full supply" (with distance penalties) button working the same as refit button. And drop the punitive HQ buildup.
This allows the German player to send what supply he has where he needs it and hopefully improves his supply situation to the point where the Russian has to fight instead of run away.

Multiple sources say the grosstransportraum can replace the Railhead up to 30 hexes away. This never happens in the game but should clearly be possible on turn 1 as a minimum position.

I am not saying supply should be 100% just what it historically was.

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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/20/2019 2:27:45 AM   
king171717

 

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Chuckfourth,

Please listen to Dr. David Stahel to get an understand of how hopeless the Germans were of taking Moscow due to logistics.

I cant post links...
youtube- copy and paste this

2014 WWII Lecture series: Operation Barbarossa-Russia
2015 WWII Lecture Series-Dr. David Stahel


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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/25/2019 2:08:32 AM   
joelmar


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quote:


ORIGINAL: king171717

Please listen to Dr. David Stahel to get an understand of how hopeless the Germans were of taking Moscow due to logistics.


Very very good lecture king171717, worth listening to, the man obviously has a lot of knowledge on Barbarossa at all levels and brings a few very good and logical arguments no one mentionned yet in this thread.

Thank you for the link, I enjoyed a lot.

Talks about logistics and related topics starts from 56:35. Here is the link for anyone interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxsdfcgfSS8

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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/26/2019 4:15:34 AM   
king171717

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joelmar

quote:


ORIGINAL: king171717

Please listen to Dr. David Stahel to get an understand of how hopeless the Germans were of taking Moscow due to logistics.


Very very good lecture king171717, worth listening to, the man obviously has a lot of knowledge on Barbarossa at all levels and brings a few very good and logical arguments no one mentionned yet in this thread.

Thank you for the link, I enjoyed a lot.

Talks about logistics and related topics starts from 56:35. Here is the link for anyone interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxsdfcgfSS8


Ya i really liked them!! Glad you enjoyed them!!

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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/27/2019 9:19:30 AM   
chuckfourth

 

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There is nothing I am unaware of in Stahels monologue. Further he says nothing that disputes anything I have said.
Sure the Germans were short of supply by Moscow I agree. In the game they are OUT of supply in week 3, that's way before Moscow. King171717, to be relevant you need to show me the reference that says the Germans ran out of supply in week 3

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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/28/2019 2:56:20 AM   
king171717

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

There is nothing I am unaware of in Stahels monologue. Further he says nothing that disputes anything I have said.
Sure the Germans were short of supply by Moscow I agree. In the game they are OUT of supply in week 3, that's way before Moscow. King171717, to be relevant you need to show me the reference that says the Germans ran out of supply in week 3


OMG man, I dont think you know anything. Whats the point explaining things to u...

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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/29/2019 5:05:59 AM   
MattFL

 

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I read Stahel's book on operation Barbarossa about 8 or so years ago, maybe more. It more than anything else reminds me of playing this game. His basic thesis is that Germany was DONE by Smolensk and it all came down to an inability to maintain supply/refit/etc. over the long distances and **** infrastructure that was Russia. +1 to KING171717.

-732 to Chuckfourth who makes the mistake of gaining his understanding of the campaign from military handbooks (yeah, I have that one too - written by Americans no less) and obviously doesn't really play the game past turn 3 despite what he says. If he did, he wouldn't be bitching about anything.

< Message edited by MattFL -- 7/29/2019 5:06:57 AM >

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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/30/2019 7:45:49 PM   
Aufklaerungs


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Lancer, break up the lynch mob.

Excellent points, Chuck. Very persuasive. The big guns value marketability above accuracy. Budgets and publication deadlines can be disincentives to research/accuracy as well.

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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/30/2019 8:45:47 PM   
Red Lancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aufklaerungs

Lancer, break up the lynch mob.

Excellent points, Chuck. Very persuasive. The big guns value marketability above accuracy. Budgets and publication deadlines can be disincentives to research/accuracy as well.


I'm no longer a Moderator but that's another story. So without a Moderator tag let me say this...

I am 100% convinced that the 2by3 team has done everything possible to create as accurate a reflection of history as is possible. Money and time are not the primary factor - most of us are unpaid volunteers and were we in a rush WitE2 would already have released.

Chuck is entitled to his opinion but I disagree with his analysis on a number of levels. For example you can only compare to history if you follow history and I've not seen that evidence.

I commend you as the first to support his opinion but your suggestion that we have sacrificed accuracy for marketability does you no credit whatsoever.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Aufklaerungs)
Post #: 79
RE: How to fix the game. - 7/30/2019 10:11:01 PM   
Aufklaerungs


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Thanks for the uncalled for credit rating. I don't think I earned a personal put-down.

There are a many, many inaccuracies in the game. Chuck cited just a very few. That said, the quality of research and detail is unparalleled, indeed; the product is peerless. I don't think many corrections in 1941 would pass muster with stock campaign players who prefer the USSR, but want a fair shot.

IIRC, by your own admission, several have been/are being rectified in WitE2.

Your many contributions to the game and this site are highly commendable and do you great credit, indeed, RL.

BTW, I would prefer to receive neg input/feedback in a pm.

And the mob was getting a little ugly.





< Message edited by Aufklaerungs -- 7/30/2019 10:37:06 PM >


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RE: How to fix the game. - 7/31/2019 12:58:07 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

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Just as an attempt to get this back on track as the thread quickly got derailed first into general questions of balance and also into the intricacies of the logistics model.

The very first post states that at the start of his T3 the OP has his armoured units out of fuel and on 2MP. I think it might be helpful if he posts some screenshots of the turn as it sounds to me like something may have gone wrong either with his supply lines getting cut off by the Russians or by him misplacing his HQs out of supply range.

I've just checked the last T3 I played and I had 4PA approaching Pskov with an average of 30MP; 3PA approaching the land bridge with a couple of forward units on 15MP and the rest a little behind on 20-30MP; 2PA at the Berezina with units ranging from 6MP (a PD well across the river having made an encirclement) to an average of 20-30MP, with one PD in reserve back in Minsk on 49MP and 1PA at Rovno/Tarnopol about to breakout with all units 40+MP.

A big thing to remember in terms of fuel/MP conservation in the very early turns - every armoured/motorized unit will use at least twice the MPs to enter an enemy hex (including the dark green ones that are pending friendly control). Any unit below 86 morale will use three times the MPs. If you push all those units forward at the same time into enemy hexes you will burn large amounts of fuel/MPs (although even in this case ending up with 2MPs on T3 seems extreme). Much more efficient is to keep some of the units back so that next turn they are travelling through friendly hexes. As a rough example I'd be splitting each PA into a 'pathfinder' group A (moving forward into enemy hexes) a 'security' group B (ensuring group A do not get cut off) and a 'reserve' group C (sticking to friendly hexes and conserving fuel). The next turn the groups will swap roles - typically group B will push forward, group A will provide security and group C will move to a position where they can take on the 'pathfinding' role on the next turn.


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Post #: 81
RE: How to fix the game. - 7/31/2019 1:19:15 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

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Also in terms of the other point the OP makes about artillery SUs. Firstly I think it's important to remember that the divisional TOEs include 'organic' artillery elements. So even if no art SU commits you will still have artillery in play. But secondly I've never had any problem with artillery SUs committing. One problem could arise if OP is trying to use lots of artillery in his Pz Corps. Most Pz units in the early turns are (or should be) carrying out hasty attacks. Remember that with these the Corps SUs will not commit if the HQ has already moved. So if you want to use the artillery then make sure that you are doing it early in the turn before your units have moved more than 5 hexes away from their HQ's starting position.

The other thing to do to try and ensure you get the artillery SUs involved is to make sure you aren't 'diluting' the SU pool of important Corps with weak units like the bicycle infantry, the SP Flak companies and those infantry gun SUs that can't replace their losses.

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Post #: 82
RE: How to fix the game. - 7/31/2019 2:28:54 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

Just as an attempt to get this back on track as the thread quickly got derailed first into general questions of balance and also into the intricacies of the logistics model.

The very first post states that at the start of his T3 the OP has his armoured units out of fuel and on 2MP. I think it might be helpful if he posts some screenshots of the turn as it sounds to me like something may have gone wrong either with his supply lines getting cut off by the Russians or by him misplacing his HQs out of supply range.

I've just checked the last T3 I played and I had 4PA approaching Pskov with an average of 30MP; 3PA approaching the land bridge with a couple of forward units on 15MP and the rest a little behind on 20-30MP; 2PA at the Berezina with units ranging from 6MP (a PD well across the river having made an encirclement) to an average of 20-30MP, with one PD in reserve back in Minsk on 49MP and 1PA at Rovno/Tarnopol about to breakout with all units 40+MP.

A big thing to remember in terms of fuel/MP conservation in the very early turns - every armoured/motorized unit will use at least twice the MPs to enter an enemy hex (including the dark green ones that are pending friendly control). Any unit below 86 morale will use three times the MPs. If you push all those units forward at the same time into enemy hexes you will burn large amounts of fuel/MPs (although even in this case ending up with 2MPs on T3 seems extreme). Much more efficient is to keep some of the units back so that next turn they are travelling through friendly hexes. As a rough example I'd be splitting each PA into a 'pathfinder' group A (moving forward into enemy hexes) a 'security' group B (ensuring group A do not get cut off) and a 'reserve' group C (sticking to friendly hexes and conserving fuel). The next turn the groups will swap roles - typically group B will push forward, group A will provide security and group C will move to a position where they can take on the 'pathfinding' role on the next turn.



My 2nd last opponent had Pz units North of Pskov when I opened T2!!!! and had taken Moscow by T12. I know call me AI.

Isn't there a special T1 rule for Axis movement, 1 mp?


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Post #: 83
RE: How to fix the game. - 7/31/2019 2:31:55 AM   
joelmar


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I had promised myself I wouldn't say a word on this thread again... but this is a free world and there are a few things I'd like to say and it has nothing to do with the supply situation in game vs historical.

->>First, this is a game, not a simulation of reality. Everything is averaged out. So a bad supply situation at the beginning of the game, which is maybe worst - I said maybe, and I don't want to get into that debate again because it doesn't really matter that much to my arguments - so supplies that maybe worst than it was in reality in turn 3, is easily compensated by a very good supply situation in front of Moscow by turn 14-15, much better than it was historically.

->>Second, and following the trend of thought of my first point, MattFL said this: "...and obviously doesn't really play the game past turn 3 despite what he says. If he did, he wouldn't be bitching about anything." I may be wrong, but my guess is that he is the one being put under flak for "mob lynching".

I have to say that as offensive as this remark may sound to sensible souls, there is a big truth in it, that any experienced player of the game knows: There is no way the Soviets can stop a German player that knows his business if he want to get somewhere in 1941, even with the very limited supplies situation on turn 3-4-5.

->>Third, the poster of this thread proposed his solution as a way to make the Soviets fight forward. But following the 2 previous arguments, the kind of supplies the poster (rightfully or not) asks for would mean that a Soviet fighting forward would be wiped out the board really fast by any good Axis player, and Moscow would be in direct reach of the panzer spearheads by turn 7 or 8 max. And that would also happen to a runner even faster. So, bottom line, far from making the Soviets fight forward, it would mean that no one would want to play the Soviets anymore. Simple as that.




< Message edited by joelmar -- 7/31/2019 2:48:41 AM >


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Post #: 84
RE: How to fix the game. - 7/31/2019 2:35:28 AM   
joelmar


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quote:


ORIGINAL: 56ajax

My 2nd last opponent had Pz units North of Pskov when I opened T2!!!! and had taken Moscow by T12. I know call me AI.


lol! Funny guy! We need more like you!

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Post #: 85
RE: How to fix the game. - 7/31/2019 6:42:45 AM   
Hanny

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

Here are two quotes from "Handbook of German military forces" talking about German supply roads.


Thats the US ww2 era Handbook, in short it is not accurate so any assumptions based on it will be flawed. It for instance when used by the US Intel service advised the Germans will conquer the SU by 42. It gives the Heer abilities it did not have, 4 times the PLOL delivery rate, 8 times the munitions rate, full replacemnt for losses in MTV and so on.

There are two ways to answer this question of fuel supply, the theoritical supply situation by looking at QM planning allocation ( how crevald looked at it) and the actual consumption rates.

Foreign Military Studies P-190 Consumption and Attrition Rates Attendant to the Operations of German Group Center in Russia (22 Jun.-31 Dec. 1941 avalialbe free online. Gives us some different numbers.

Divisional diarys gives us the turnaround time for an ID obtaining theroritical dayly supply to actual.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SDfInc6Gb40C&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=supplies+for+army+group+cente+smolensk&source=bl&ots=4mxnQ8GZrr&sig=wKRKWtIAbidPwoKFiuJcaLXiLg8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwji2MnpteXfAhVB2aQKHWejAXM4ChDoATACegQIBxAB#v=onepage&q=supplies%20for%20army%20group%20cente%20smolensk&f=false


July 1941 298.Inf.Div.
Armeelager - - distance - - loading - - unloading - - Days from departure to return
Mogilew - - - - - 100 - - - 1/4 day - - - 1/4 day - - - 2 days
Orscha - - - - - - 120 - - - 1/4 day - - - 1/4 day - - - 2 1/2 days
Borriosow - - - - 250 - - - 1/4 day - - - 1/4 day - - - 4 days
Minsk - - - - - - 300 - - - 1/4 day - - - -1/4 day - - - 4 1/2 days
Bobruisk - - - - - 200 - - 1/4 day - - - -1/4 day - - - 3 days


As we can see, supplies/times taken was dependent on where the depots where.

Mogoliew 3 July, Orscha went live 31 July, for the entire period, 28 days, the formation required 31 units of supplies, and had recieved 17.

In a month the formation received half what it consumed, and requested to be resupplied, between twice and 4 times the time span it expected it to arrive in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

How many trucks they lost has nothing to do with the range of the Kraftwagenkolonnen.




Oh but your assuming 125 was the average mileage achieved , it was not. You assuming that x number reduced by 25% 38% 75% has no effect on quantity of supplies delivered.

Also that a QM asks each day what has been consumed and requests that amount to be replaced, by next day, he assigns enough on hand trucks to collect it, he started with with truck coys, each of 30 trucks, 1 being serviced, 1 distributting supplies around the DIv and one to collect supplies from GTR depots, so had 30*3=90 tons a day capacity. As the capacity drops due to reduced numbers of in service vehicles drops so does the daily resupply amount become reduced.


quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth


Are you telling me the Russians didn't have petrol stations? The petrol stations were ALREADY there. Russian truck range, German truck range, close enough, so the stations would also be where they needed to be. In 1941 did a Russian driving from Moscow to Smolensk have to carry all the petrol he needed with him? Its a matter of common sense not map reading. In 1935 the Russians produced about 110,000 tractors, in 1937 Soviets produced 44,000 combine harvesters to America's 29,000 they all used fuel. 1941 Russia is heavily industrialised. It had roads, Glantz says there is 64.375 klms of asphalted roads in European Russia where do your maps put these?



German MTV and Russian MTV used different grades of fuel, they were not interchangable, each destroys the others engines. Unlike in France where the Heer simply topped up from French petrol stations, who used the same form of fuel, and went on, in russia you cant use captured fuel stocks untill its been converted to the same fuel grade.

Its also common sense that the average German Div did not have an refinary in its TOE to convert soviet fuel for use.

Your confusing the Handbooks on good roads fuel consumption rate, with its off road fuel consumption rate. Glants is refering to all weather roads, which would yield the handbooks fuel consumption rate. thats all of that form of road there was. The move traffic you put on a road, the slower the traffic transfer rate becomes. Inf cannot march as fast if its full of MTV etc. A 1941 Pzr Div requires 98 klm of road space to hold all its manouver elements, if it travails at 40 klm a hour, a block of road space 200klm long cannot be used by anyone else as this formation moves on the road. German ID requires 40 klm of road space. The poorer the quality of road, the greater the movement in fuel consumption to off road as specified by the handbook becomes.



< Message edited by Hanny -- 7/31/2019 9:07:01 AM >

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Post #: 86
RE: How to fix the game. - 7/31/2019 8:17:50 AM   
56ajax


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From: Carnegie, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joelmar

quote:


ORIGINAL: 56ajax

My 2nd last opponent had Pz units North of Pskov when I opened T2!!!! and had taken Moscow by T12. I know call me AI.


lol! Funny guy! We need more like you!


why thankyou, I try to have a light hearted comment in my postings, coz playing the Soviets thats all I have...but the point I am trying to make is that if you know how the game works very well, you will win. It is not broken.

And sometime ago an opponent played historical Axis and gave up on T14...so you have to play outside the box

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Post #: 87
RE: How to fix the game. - 7/31/2019 10:12:32 AM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

John I don't want the Logistics to be any easier I would like them to be realistic.
Loki100 I have studied queuing theory. Rather than trying to frighten us with big words perhaps you could explain how it pertains to the points I have raised?


ok, lets have a go then. I'll skip the detailed statistical/mathematical model as its the concepts that matter. As you know, queueing theory works from two dimensions. One is to answer the question how much capacity do we need to process x amount with y arrivals. The other is more useful here, if I have x capacity how much can I process?

So keeping to round numbers, lets believe your sources (I don't but thats a secondary issue). Lets say that to reach the given numbers, you need to be able to send 100 trucks over a given 100m of road per hour.

So most minor issue, a truck breaks down. Lets say the combination of that needing repair and the minor disruption to other vehicles takes out 1.5 units of capacity (change the numbers to suit). We now only have capacity to move 98.5 (so we've already lost 1.5%). 500m down the road another one breaks down, so our 98.5 becomes nearer to 97 (its non linear but lets keep the numbers clear).

Next obstacle is worse. Truck stopped, driver dead. So there will be a local search to see if the partisans are hanging around. Lets say this takes out 5 units of capacity. so our 97 trucks become a throughput of 91 - possibly worse if we are setting up a convoy system (check out the British WW2 naval data for how badly this limits capacity).

If this pattern of minor annoyances carries on over 10 km, our throughput is down around 80. It doesn't matter if those 80 can move a notional 300km, 20% of your trucks are never going to get anywhere near that theoretical number due to the blockages.

And of course, if the Soviets mine the road or blow a bridge well throughput drops to 0 till its sorted. All this comes off the notional road distance. At best something like 50% of your trucks may move to their limit, in reality almost none will.



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Post #: 88
RE: How to fix the game. - 7/31/2019 12:54:34 PM   
joelmar


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quote:


ORIGINAL: 56ajax

why thankyou, I try to have a light hearted comment in my postings, coz playing the Soviets thats all I have...but the point I am trying to make is that if you know how the game works very well, you will win. It is not broken.


Indeed, even your avatar speaks for itself

I second your point 100%. It was also mine. The fact that the Germans is able to go where he wishes even with a tight supply leash, exactly has it should be by all serious historians accounts including the "new" trends of Glantz and Stahel, is quite scientific when you have played the game enough to understand the synergies.

Funny the guy gets so much attention from us all, even the dev team, when we should simply ignore him. Yes, I know, mea culpa! Chuck must be laughing his heart out reading us! Good for him! lol!

< Message edited by joelmar -- 7/31/2019 12:55:35 PM >


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Post #: 89
RE: How to fix the game. - 7/31/2019 2:37:53 PM   
Hanny

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joelmar

I had promised myself I wouldn't say a word on this thread again... but this is a free world and there are a few things I'd like to say and it has nothing to do with the supply situation in game vs historical.

->>First, this is a game, not a simulation of reality. Everything is averaged out. So a bad supply situation at the beginning of the game, which is maybe worst - I said maybe, and I don't want to get into that debate again because it doesn't really matter that much to my arguments - so supplies that maybe worst than it was in reality in turn 3, is easily compensated by a very good supply situation in front of Moscow by turn 14-15, much better than it was historically.





Therin lies a problem, from production only**, the Ostfront in 41 had a problem that demand vastly greater than production could deliver, and the RR deliver could deliver.

The General Staff had drawn up its operational plans on the assumption that the attacking forces would receive 6,710 tons of motor fuel and diesel per day on from twenty-two supply trains. WiRüAmt pointed out in May that this was impossible – the Reich could only provide sixteen trains per day, and that only for the first six weeks.

We* have the German consumption of fuel supplies for all of 41, AGC 519000 tons for 53 Divs for 180 days. Average 11 fuel trains a day. If we go by averages, 54 tons of fuel a formation a day. We know how VS a formation was expected to have on hand so we can get the relationship between ID and AD in balance rather than an average.

( problem with using averages, Only five fuel trains reached the Ninth Army between 23 October and 23 November, but this dwarfed the number arriving at the Second Army, which received only one fuel train.)

*https://www.fold3.com/image/1/160233368

**Take a look here https://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,463.15.html

From there you can see how much finished fuel the military consumed (4,567,000 tons), how much the economy produced/imported oil, (10,0000 tons oil, makes around half that in petrol) how much the civilian economy consumed,(7,305,000) from what was imported and produced domesticly, and how fuel demand was met from stocks. see the drain on stock levels in the data sets.




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