Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Why are victory points so low in competitive games?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Why are victory points so low in competitive games? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 1:32:36 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline
Guess I'm on a "why are things like this" kick these days.

I'm sure it exasperates many of you.


I just happened to see the final results in a competitive game between Wargamr and Mr. Kane wherein Mr. Kane won with a score of 27k victory points to 6k victory points.


My current Ironman Nasty Ported to Babes game against the lowly AI is in October '45 with the score standing at 277k victory points for the Allies and 77K victory points for the Japanese.


Its easy to see of course, why a player should be able to run up a score of 277k against an unthinking, script following AI, but what is revealing is the AIs score of 77k. This is three times what a thinking player was able to achieve.


So, this can be interpreted as either the AI is actually better than a thinking player, OR I completely suck.



But, back to the original question, why are victory point totals so low in competitive games?

Anyone willing to offer an explanation?




_____________________________

Hans

Post #: 1
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 1:38:01 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21096
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Sure, I'll try.

The Wargamr vs. Mr. Kane game is at auto vic in 1942, when both sides naturally have far fewer points than they'd have in 1945.

Secondly, Wargamr has far fewer than in a normal game because he tried to avoid auto vic by extreme Sir Robin - not fighting in China, not fighting in the air, pretty much not fighting anywhere. As a result he scored radically few points....and thus the denominator for AV purposes was lower than perhaps ever seen before.


(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 2
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 1:58:00 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline
I believe the AI in the scenario you are playing gets unlimited supply, which can skew the VPs it has in the bases it still holds?

Just to validate this point, In my game I hold 296 bases worth 3400 VPs. Your AI opponents holds only 114 bases yet they are worth 10600 VPs...

< Message edited by Miller -- 4/20/2019 2:15:24 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 1:59:05 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4152
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
HansBolter, don't Ironman scenarios have more LCUs and aircraft avaialble to the AI? You probably destroy more LCUs/aircraft compred to the stock scenarios.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 4
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 2:59:49 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

I believe the AI in the scenario you are playing gets unlimited supply, which can skew the VPs it has in the bases it still holds?



No, I played on Historical to prevent that and can confirm many sieges where the Japanese were out of supply.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 5
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 3:01:20 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

HansBolter, don't Ironman scenarios have more LCUs and aircraft avaialble to the AI? You probably destroy more LCUs/aircraft compred to the stock scenarios.



Absolutely. But the Allied side is stock Babes mod with no enhancements so the AI didn't have any more on the Allied side to gain points from destroying than in a competitive game.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 6
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 3:03:18 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Sure, I'll try.

The Wargamr vs. Mr. Kane game is at auto vic in 1942, when both sides naturally have far fewer points than they'd have in 1945.

Secondly, Wargamr has far fewer than in a normal game because he tried to avoid auto vic by extreme Sir Robin - not fighting in China, not fighting in the air, pretty much not fighting anywhere. As a result he scored radically few points....and thus the denominator for AV purposes was lower than perhaps ever seen before.





Didn't read enough of the AAR to take note of that and I'm sure that must be why the scores were so low.

I'll look for a competitive game that goes the full distance for a better comparison. Waiting for your Obvert game to end.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 7
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 3:29:04 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14452
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
Here's my current game with AW1Steve




Attachment (1)

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 8
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 4:12:55 PM   
dwesolick


Posts: 540
Joined: 6/24/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Here's my current game with AW1Steve





Just curious (and too lazy to go find my manual), what does "strategic losses" refer to?

_____________________________

"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 9
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 4:21:50 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline
Victory points gained through Strategic Bombing.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to dwesolick)
Post #: 10
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 4:45:07 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2908
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

But, back to the original question, why are victory point totals so low in competitive games?

Anyone willing to offer an explanation?



The AI fudges the industry mechanic, meaning they get more planes & rebuild more LCU's than is possible in a player controlled game.

I'd warrant that a significnant portion of the VP difference in your AI games originates from VP's generated from destroyed airframes and LCU's.

You don't get that kind of one-sided difference in player vs player games.



(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 11
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 5:02:44 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 15444
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Victory points gained through Strategic Bombing.

I don't think it is just bombing - naval bombardments should count as well, but apparently industry destroyed when a base is captured by the enemy does not count toward VPs.


The points are for damage or destruction to industry, but not in all locations. The Allies only get points for hitting Japanese industry in the home islands, not the industry Japan has in China and Mongolia/Manchuria. I am not sure about whether the Japanese get points for bombing Chinese/Indian/Malayan/DEI industry. Japan does get points for hitting Australian, US and Canadian industry.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 12
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 5:07:37 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14452
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
Unfortunately the game leaves out strategery losses.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 13
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 5:09:40 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

But, back to the original question, why are victory point totals so low in competitive games?

Anyone willing to offer an explanation?



The AI fudges the industry mechanic, meaning they get more planes & rebuild more LCU's than is possible in a player controlled game.

I'd warrant that a significnant portion of the VP difference in your AI games originates from VP's generated from destroyed airframes and LCU's.

You don't get that kind of one-sided difference in player vs player games.






But its also one sided when you compare the 77k points the AI was able to score against me to what Japanese players are scoring in competitive games. The Allies aren't getting an increase in the number of planes, ships and troops for the Japanese side to run up more points by destroying. One would also presume the AI to be lesser effective at accumulating VPs than a human.

The really big question is how can the AI, which is presumably significantly handicapped when compared to a human, run up more points against a human than another human can?

I guess the obvious answer must be the overwhelming strength the AI side has in the Ironman games. Even a poor dumb AI following scripts is capable of running up a higher point total than a human if given sufficient resources.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 14
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 5:22:00 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 15444
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

But, back to the original question, why are victory point totals so low in competitive games?

Anyone willing to offer an explanation?



The AI fudges the industry mechanic, meaning they get more planes & rebuild more LCU's than is possible in a player controlled game.

I'd warrant that a significnant portion of the VP difference in your AI games originates from VP's generated from destroyed airframes and LCU's.

You don't get that kind of one-sided difference in player vs player games.






But its also one sided when you compare the 77k points the AI was able to score against me to what Japanese players are scoring in competitive games. The Allies aren't getting an increase in the number of planes, ships and troops for the Japanese side to run up more points by destroying. One would also presume the AI to be lesser effective at accumulating VPs than a human.

The really big question is how can the AI, which is presumably significantly handicapped when compared to a human, run up more points against a human than another human can?

I guess the obvious answer must be the overwhelming strength the AI side has in the Ironman games. Even a poor dumb AI following scripts is capable of running up a higher point total than a human if given sufficient resources.

To give the player against the AI more of a challenge, the game is given the ability to "cheat" and do things like teleport unengaged units to where they are needed, especially ships. I suspect that the AI might also give itself enough supply in all the bases it holds to be able to count the VPs for the base. Again, the idea is to challenge the Allied player to take the enemy bases to reduce the AI's VP total. I railed at the "AI Cheat" too, until I was made to realize that it had to be so if the solo player wanted any kind of challenge.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 15
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 5:23:30 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14452
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
Well, Hans, you and Bullwinkle are just going to have to start playing humans. The AI is just for practice.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 16
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 5:24:38 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2908
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

But, back to the original question, why are victory point totals so low in competitive games?

Anyone willing to offer an explanation?



The AI fudges the industry mechanic, meaning they get more planes & rebuild more LCU's than is possible in a player controlled game.

I'd warrant that a significnant portion of the VP difference in your AI games originates from VP's generated from destroyed airframes and LCU's.

You don't get that kind of one-sided difference in player vs player games.






But its also one sided when you compare the 77k points the AI was able to score against me to what Japanese players are scoring in competitive games. The Allies aren't getting an increase in the number of planes, ships and troops for the Japanese side to run up more points by destroying. One would also presume the AI to be lesser effective at accumulating VPs than a human.

The really big question is how can the AI, which is presumably significantly handicapped when compared to a human, run up more points against a human than another human can?

I guess the obvious answer must be the overwhelming strength the AI side has in the Ironman games. Even a poor dumb AI following scripts is capable of running up a higher point total than a human if given sufficient resources.


It doesn't matter what side is being played, the AI ignores restrictions that players need to operate within.

If it's a non-standard game such as Ironman, different VP values for bases and the vastly expanded OOB will account for it.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 17
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 5:27:17 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21096
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
The question posted by Hans was inaccurate, as was pointed out early in this thread....but folks keep replying not realizing the fallacy that was included in the OP. There's no issue here.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 18
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 5:35:53 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Well, Hans, you and Bullwinkle are just going to have to start playing humans. The AI is just for practice.



The AI is for those of us that don't want to be beholden to anyone and responsible for satisfying anyone else's needs.

The AI doesn't get disappointed and pissy with me if I go three days without playing a turn.

There are many, many days I come home from work too brain fried to be able to play a turn.

The AI is there and waiting with baited breath for that free Saturday when I can marathon 10 turns in a single day.

The AI IS the ultimate opponent.


_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 19
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 5:45:30 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14452
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
Baited breath? The AI has fish breath? Bated breath maybe?

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 20
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 6:33:47 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8653
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Baited breath? The AI has fish breath? Bated breath maybe?



Well, he is playing against a Japanese AI. All that sushi may be the cause of "fish breath"...not to forget the sea urchin eggs.



_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 21
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 7:23:04 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2143
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Well, Hans, you and Bullwinkle are just going to have to start playing humans. The AI is just for practice.







Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 22
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 10:28:35 PM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2458
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline
Plenty of points in my PBEM with L_S_T....Here's the VP screen for 30Mar44






Attachment (1)

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 23
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/19/2019 10:29:41 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline
Well, for what its worth, this is what an Intel report looks like for an Ironman game that makes it to late '45:









Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 24
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/20/2019 10:37:35 AM   
traskott


Posts: 1518
Joined: 6/23/2008
From: Valladolid, Spain
Status: offline
Those points could come from allied army points, plus all those convoys the AI always got with those "surprise" attack ( ie:teleport attacks ), plus remember AI always expand all bases to top, and Andy Ironman map has more bases, so there we can find more of that....

Signed: A guy which loses more xAKs to AI than he can count.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 25
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/20/2019 11:20:05 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4114
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I am not sure about whether the Japanese get points for bombing Chinese/Indian/Malayan/DEI industry.


The 34 strategic points in the screenshot my esteemed opponent IdahoNYer has posted above are from Japanese manpower bombing in China. We have a house rule against "industry bombing" in China, but had different views whether manpower is part of industry or not. After the first manpower attack showed that it does cause strategic losses, we renegotiated a manpower bombing ban in China.

_____________________________


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 26
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/20/2019 12:32:06 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21096
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Industry (including Manpower) hits in China don't generate points for either side. The only way a Japanese player can get strategic points is by hitting industrial targets in Australia and the continental USA (so India and Canada don't count either).

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 27
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/20/2019 2:31:17 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4152
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Well, for what its worth, this is what an Intel report looks like for an Ironman game that makes it to late '45:










You have destroyed 90,000 Japanese aircraft! That speaks (heavy) volumes.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 28
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/20/2019 4:48:11 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7339
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline
Not to mention the fact that my Ops loses exceed my Air-to-Air losses by 5k!

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 29
RE: Why are victory points so low in competitive games? - 4/20/2019 6:26:42 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 6454
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Japan does get points for hitting Australian, US and Canadian industry.


quote:

The only way a Japanese player can get strategic points is by hitting industrial targets in Australia and the continental USA (so India and Canada don't count either).


Just an FYI here, Japan gets strategic points by hitting targets in, "North America, Australia, and/or Hawaii". Manual p264 last sentence.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Why are victory points so low in competitive games? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.180