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Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/15/2019 10:57:59 AM   
StuccoFresco

 

Posts: 534
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		A couple noob questions about aviation:

- Fewer hexes between where an air unit is based and its objectives are good, yes? It means my aircrafts have to travel less and get more loitering time, giving me better results in missions, right?

- If this is true, moving aircrafts into air bases closer to the frontline it's a good idea, BUT does it raise the risk of enemy's airfield strike?

- What is, in game terms, a furball? How does it happen? What triggers it?
Post #: 1
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/15/2019 11:31:42 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 797
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		It would take testing, as far as I know, to test those assumptions. Off hand, I would not assume what you mention below.

Cheers

quote:

ORIGINAL: StuccoFresco

A couple noob questions about aviation:

- Fewer hexes between where an air unit is based and its objectives are good, yes? It means my aircrafts have to travel less and get more loitering time, giving me better results in missions, right?

- If this is true, moving aircrafts into air bases closer to the frontline it's a good idea, BUT does it raise the risk of enemy's airfield strike?

- What is, in game terms, a furball? How does it happen? What triggers it?


(in reply to StuccoFresco)
Post #: 2
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/16/2019 2:08:15 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39157
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		It's always been my understanding that the shorter the distance between attacking aircraft and their targets was a good thing but I have no idea how the game engine models the airstrike and I have to agree that some tests might ought to be done to see if there really is a difference based on distance. And I try to park an AA unit on my occupied airfields to cut down on the number of airfield strikes from a human player and to make Elmer's airfield strikes more expensive. But other than that my fighters are usually right up at the front lines. Being right up on the front means their covered arc section extends further into enemy territory and there are usually a lot of furballs that way. My planes attacking his or his attacking mine ( in the air ) and a lot of the time one side or the other are wiped out to a man. The Axis side usually wins a lot of furballs in the early war period. Later on when the Soviets gain air superiority the furballs begin to produce equal losses to each side and then in the late war period the Axis side is really hurting in the air and I've never played a game that got that far.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 4/16/2019 2:09:01 AM >

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If we ever do become a space faring species and are able to visit other worlds let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

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Post #: 3
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/17/2019 4:43:45 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1783
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		My air unit strategy, in general, goes like this:

1) Air unit should be based at an airfield w/ AAA, either SAM or SPAAG or other ground-based anti-aircraft fire (so as to mitigate any enemy airfield attacks on their location);

2) Air unit should be based as close to action as possible, following rule 1;

3) Limiting air unit movement (this is a tough one) .... you can limit your air unit to a Zone of Operation ... e.g., "combat" or "air support" only for a certain zone of control, to keep it from flying off into fur ball territory; j(I use this only sometimes, to limit e.g. Dutch or Belgium to operations only w/in their own air space ... this will help prevent fur ball into enemy territory)

4) Pay attention to the more detailed air unit reports ... e.g. clearly air unit air defense support units (w/ high anti-air defense numbers) should be only on air superiority ... other air units have higher anti-personnel and anti-armor values than their air defense values ... so for those air units, you want to use for combat support, interdiction, or airfield attacks.)

Example: I have found that most Soviet air units w/ "F" in their name (e.g., Fishbed, Fishpot, Fireball) etc. are clearly to be used only as air superiority units .... while "Su" units are for more combat / interdiction / airfield attack roles) ... there are little hints like that scattered throughout the game ... for US, Starfighters are of course for air superiority, while A-10 are combat roles ....)

I hope this helps!! This is my strategy that I use and it seems to work fairly well for me.

Your mileage may vary!
D

< Message edited by Hellen_slith -- 4/17/2019 4:56:17 PM >

(in reply to StuccoFresco)
Post #: 4
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/17/2019 4:49:49 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4175
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		8.2.6. Air Unit Combat Support and
Air Superiority Reactions
(Advanced Rules)
In order to provide combat support or intercept
enemy Air units, air units must pass both a
Quality Check (see 9.1.10) and a Range Check.
The chance of passing a Range Check decreases
with range to target as a proportion of the unit’s
Combat Range.

_____________________________

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 5
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/17/2019 4:57:51 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1783
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Indeed, and a close look at the "DBR" (not sure what it is called, where you can show range on the map) has a little hint where "range" is not so good ..... not explained in manual, but I *think* that what that little range finder means ....)

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 6
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/17/2019 5:31:12 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 5354
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: online 		I have posted this elsewhere but this is what we uncovered for the Air/AA/Naval Range rings (the ground ones are in the manual but not these):

Okay, I think I got it figured out with the help of both Larry and BigDuke and the actual settings. So this is the deal for range band colors:

This is the in game defaults for range bands and what they mean:



For this particular scenario for this Air Unit, this is what the colors mean:



_____________________________


War in the East/War in the East II - Alpha Test Teams
WarPlan Beta Tester
DG CWIE2 tester/SPWW2 and SPMBT playtester/scenario & campaign creator

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 7
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/17/2019 6:19:23 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1783
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you, that is very helpful!!! So, what I thought was a "range finder" was actually AA cover, at least in my example. Thanks again!! D

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 8
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/18/2019 7:00:52 AM   
StuccoFresco

 

Posts: 534
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Good.

But what exactly is (in game) a furball? Is it a special air battle that occurs when there are a lot of air units on missions in a relatively small area?

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 9
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/18/2019 8:54:04 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 797
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		From what I've seen in lab scenarios, "furball" seems to be the term used (in the game) for any aerial combat.

Cheers

quote:

ORIGINAL: StuccoFresco

Good.

But what exactly is (in game) a furball? Is it a special air battle that occurs when there are a lot of air units on missions in a relatively small area?


(in reply to StuccoFresco)
Post #: 10
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/18/2019 12:10:01 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4175
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StuccoFresco

Good.

But what exactly is (in game) a furball? Is it a special air battle that occurs when there are a lot of air units on missions in a relatively small area?


Furball: A dogfight, or dog fight between fighter aircraft, conducted at close range...By the end of January, 1991, the term "furball" became a popular word to describe the hectic situation of many dogfights, occurring at the same time...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXzolQcUKNw

< Message edited by Lobster -- 4/18/2019 12:24:37 PM >

_____________________________

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to StuccoFresco)
Post #: 11
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/22/2019 1:12:31 PM   
mussey


Posts: 658
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
quote:

Example: I have found that most Soviet air units w/ "F" in their name (e.g., Fishbed, Fishpot, Fireball) etc. are clearly to be used only as air superiority units .... while "Su" units are for more combat / interdiction / airfield attack roles)


This partially correct since some of these have 'fighter' and 'fighter-bomber' versions. My own game level experience is still at 'Newbie', so I still have much to learn. Not to put more pressure on Cathar, but he is in the process of creating a more redefined air euip file on many of the modern aircraft. These may include several versions of each airframe. Should be very interesting to see what his workshop rolls out...

_____________________________

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The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 12
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/22/2019 1:58:27 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9285
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

Example: I have found that most Soviet air units w/ "F" in their name (e.g., Fishbed, Fishpot, Fireball) etc. are clearly to be used only as air superiority units

There is a reason for that, lol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_reporting_name

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 13
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/22/2019 2:07:45 PM   
mirrorshades

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 3/16/2019
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

quote:

Example: I have found that most Soviet air units w/ "F" in their name (e.g., Fishbed, Fishpot, Fireball) etc. are clearly to be used only as air superiority units .... while "Su" units are for more combat / interdiction / airfield attack roles)


This partially correct since some of these have 'fighter' and 'fighter-bomber' versions. My own game level experience is still at 'Newbie', so I still have much to learn.


I can't comment on the game/scenario specifically, but this is a NATO standard way of referring to Soviet/enemy equipment. Check out "NATO reporting name" on Wikipedia (apparently I'm such a forum n00b that I can't post links yet).

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 14
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 8/11/2019 2:21:52 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39157
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I thought the furballs were those air-2-air fights that happened during the inter-turn phase where there's the calculation of enemy AS value, the distribution of replacements, etc., but I'd be open to any proof that anybody has that they occur during the regular combat phases. A screenshot of it happening or something.

_____________________________

If we ever do become a space faring species and are able to visit other worlds let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

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Post #: 15
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 8/12/2019 4:56:24 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9285
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		I knew I had seen it happen, so I waited for it, took about eight turns then there it was, a Furball during the combat phase:




Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 16
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 8/12/2019 7:53:31 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39157
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Thanks Steve. Proof that it happens during the turn(s). I'm impressed. I don't think it's a bug and there's nothing to "fix" IMHO.

_____________________________

If we ever do become a space faring species and are able to visit other worlds let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 17
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 8/12/2019 11:28:37 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9285
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Maybe nothing to fix, but we could use the proper term 'dogfight' which everyone understands instead of the newage 'furball'.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 18
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 8/13/2019 1:51:58 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 4175
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		Just two places to change it if you want to see something other than furball. Change it to dogfight or air vs air or my aunt flabby's underwear.

<s_5009 v="furball location" t="FURBALL_LOCATION_STRING"/>

<s_5010 v="overrun location" t="OVERRUN_LOCATION_STRING"/>

<s_5011 v="Click here to display Combat Results." t="ALL_COMBAT_RESULTS_INFO_HELP"/>

<s_5012 v="COMBAT RESULTS" t="ALL_COMBAT_RESULTS_TITLE_STRING"/>

<s_5013 v="Type" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING"/>

<s_5014 v="Round" t="ROUND_STRING"/>

<s_5015 v="Combat" t="TIMESTAMP_STRING"/>

<s_5016 v="land" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_LAND"/>

<s_5017 v="air" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_AIR"/>

<s_5018 v="sea" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_SEA"/>

<s_5019 v="nuke" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_NUKE"/>

<s_5020 v="bombardment" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_BOMBARD"/>

<s_5021 v="furball" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_FURBALL"/>

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 19
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 8/17/2019 10:24:06 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9285
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		The Loss Report doesn't show any losses, for either side. Does that mean there are no losses? Looking at Post #16 I would guess that it doesn't keep track of these losses, therefore it doesn't report them.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 20
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 9/25/2019 4:53:14 AM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1783
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The Loss Report doesn't show any losses, for either side. Does that mean there are no losses?



I get a lot of furballs in Next War. It has been my experience that the furball that is named (in this example, the Warsaw Pact furball) ALWAYS eliminates the encroaching unit (in this example, the Royal Canadian AF unit.) Pact is the furball ... NATO encroached.

The losses only show up in the total inventory and replacements report/ they aren't shown like in other combat reports, which is a shame. But there are indeed losses.

Mr. Cross might be able to confirm or correct. I think it has been like this since ACOW, at least for the Next War scene.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 21
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 9/26/2019 4:13:38 AM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1783
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

It's always been my understanding that the shorter the distance between attacking aircraft and their targets was a good thing ....


Yes, it has been my experience also that the shorter the distance to target, the less affect upon unit battlefield timestamp. Sometimes I can grind out up to 16 on the timestamp, if I'm careful.

Mileage may vary, depending on the situation :)

D

< Message edited by Hellen_slith -- 9/26/2019 4:17:08 AM >

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 22
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 7/10/2020 3:34:36 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39157
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Just two places to change it if you want to see something other than furball. Change it to dogfight or air vs air or my aunt flabby's underwear.

<s_5009 v="furball location" t="FURBALL_LOCATION_STRING"/>

<s_5010 v="overrun location" t="OVERRUN_LOCATION_STRING"/>

<s_5011 v="Click here to display Combat Results." t="ALL_COMBAT_RESULTS_INFO_HELP"/>

<s_5012 v="COMBAT RESULTS" t="ALL_COMBAT_RESULTS_TITLE_STRING"/>

<s_5013 v="Type" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING"/>

<s_5014 v="Round" t="ROUND_STRING"/>

<s_5015 v="Combat" t="TIMESTAMP_STRING"/>

<s_5016 v="land" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_LAND"/>

<s_5017 v="air" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_AIR"/>

<s_5018 v="sea" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_SEA"/>

<s_5019 v="nuke" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_NUKE"/>

<s_5020 v="bombardment" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_BOMBARD"/>

<s_5021 v="furball" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_FURBALL"/>

What file are you changing here? I can't find that text in the EnglishTxt.xml file.

_____________________________

If we ever do become a space faring species and are able to visit other worlds let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 23
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 7/10/2020 9:31:09 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 797
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		Larry, I'm on the latest release (.40) and can't find "furball" in the game text file either. My last string definition is numbered 4860. Lobster must have a beta version with that string.

Cheers

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 24
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 7/10/2020 6:30:43 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4175
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Larry, I'm on the latest release (.40) and can't find "furball" in the game text file either. My last string definition is numbered 4860. Lobster must have a beta version with that string.

Cheers


This has nothing to do with anything that I have done. That file was changed in v.20/.21. There seems to be a concerted effort to remove the ability of people to mod the game and make some things embedded in the code so unable to be edited.

I suspect some day all of those text files will be beyond the reach of modders. Meanwhile we are stuck with a boatload of .bmp files that are never used.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 7/10/2020 6:38:08 PM >

_____________________________

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 25
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 7/11/2020 5:06:49 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 797
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
This has nothing to do with anything that I have done.


Okay, but it was more fun to imagine you were quoting from a version that none of us had yet 😂

Yeah, the direction of ability to modify game text seems to be in retrograde motion.

Cheers

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 26
RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 7/11/2020 5:23:59 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4175
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		Doesn't this make you wonder how well an older version of the file would work in the new version? Would it pick up the proper lines and use them? Could you add the proper lines in a sequential order to the new lines and get the old lines working? Is there life on Europe and did it get put there by some alien monoliths?

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 27
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