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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> The War Room >> Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs

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Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/15/2019 10:57:59 AM

StuccoFresco

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From: Italy
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A couple noob questions about aviation:

- Fewer hexes between where an air unit is based and its objectives are good, yes? It means my aircrafts have to travel less and get more loitering time, giving me better results in missions, right?

- If this is true, moving aircrafts into air bases closer to the frontline it's a good idea, BUT does it raise the risk of enemy's airfield strike?

- What is, in game terms, a furball? How does it happen? What triggers it?

Post #: 1

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/15/2019 11:31:42 AM

cathar1244

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It would take testing, as far as I know, to test those assumptions. Off hand, I would not assume what you mention below.

Cheers

quote:

ORIGINAL: StuccoFresco

A couple noob questions about aviation:

- Fewer hexes between where an air unit is based and its objectives are good, yes? It means my aircrafts have to travel less and get more loitering time, giving me better results in missions, right?

- If this is true, moving aircrafts into air bases closer to the frontline it's a good idea, BUT does it raise the risk of enemy's airfield strike?

- What is, in game terms, a furball? How does it happen? What triggers it?

(in reply to StuccoFresco)

Post #: 2

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/16/2019 2:08:15 AM

larryfulkerson

Posts: 38328
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From: Tucson, AZ
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It's always been my understanding that the shorter the distance between attacking aircraft and their targets was a good thing but I have no idea how the game engine models the airstrike and I have to agree that some tests might ought to be done to see if there really is a difference based on distance. And I try to park an AA unit on my occupied airfields to cut down on the number of airfield strikes from a human player and to make Elmer's airfield strikes more expensive. But other than that my fighters are usually right up at the front lines. Being right up on the front means their covered arc section extends further into enemy territory and there are usually a lot of furballs that way. My planes attacking his or his attacking mine ( in the air ) and a lot of the time one side or the other are wiped out to a man. The Axis side usually wins a lot of furballs in the early war period. Later on when the Soviets gain air superiority the furballs begin to produce equal losses to each side and then in the late war period the Axis side is really hurting in the air and I've never played a game that got that far.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 4/16/2019 2:09:01 AM >

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Post #: 3

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/17/2019 4:43:45 PM

Hellen_slith

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My air unit strategy, in general, goes like this:

1) Air unit should be based at an airfield w/ AAA, either SAM or SPAAG or other ground-based anti-aircraft fire (so as to mitigate any enemy airfield attacks on their location);

2) Air unit should be based as close to action as possible, following rule 1;

3) Limiting air unit movement (this is a tough one) .... you can limit your air unit to a Zone of Operation ... e.g., "combat" or "air support" only for a certain zone of control, to keep it from flying off into fur ball territory; j(I use this only sometimes, to limit e.g. Dutch or Belgium to operations only w/in their own air space ... this will help prevent fur ball into enemy territory)

4) Pay attention to the more detailed air unit reports ... e.g. clearly air unit air defense support units (w/ high anti-air defense numbers) should be only on air superiority ... other air units have higher anti-personnel and anti-armor values than their air defense values ... so for those air units, you want to use for combat support, interdiction, or airfield attacks.)

Example: I have found that most Soviet air units w/ "F" in their name (e.g., Fishbed, Fishpot, Fireball) etc. are clearly to be used only as air superiority units .... while "Su" units are for more combat / interdiction / airfield attack roles) ... there are little hints like that scattered throughout the game ... for US, Starfighters are of course for air superiority, while A-10 are combat roles ....)

I hope this helps!! This is my strategy that I use and it seems to work fairly well for me.

Your mileage may vary!
D

< Message edited by Hellen_slith -- 4/17/2019 4:56:17 PM >

(in reply to StuccoFresco)

Post #: 4

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/17/2019 4:49:49 PM

Lobster

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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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8.2.6. Air Unit Combat Support and
Air Superiority Reactions
(Advanced Rules)
In order to provide combat support or intercept
enemy Air units, air units must pass both a
Quality Check (see 9.1.10) and a Range Check.
The chance of passing a Range Check decreases
with range to target as a proportion of the unit�s
Combat Range.

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Post #: 5

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/17/2019 4:57:51 PM

Hellen_slith

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Indeed, and a close look at the "DBR" (not sure what it is called, where you can show range on the map) has a little hint where "range" is not so good ..... not explained in manual, but I *think* that what that little range finder means ....)

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 6

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/17/2019 5:31:12 PM

Zovs

Posts: 4158
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: online

I have posted this elsewhere but this is what we uncovered for the Air/AA/Naval Range rings (the ground ones are in the manual but not these):

Okay, I think I got it figured out with the help of both Larry and BigDuke and the actual settings. So this is the deal for range band colors:

This is the in game defaults for range bands and what they mean:

For this particular scenario for this Air Unit, this is what the colors mean:

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(in reply to Hellen_slith)

Post #: 7

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/17/2019 6:19:23 PM

Hellen_slith

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Thank you, that is very helpful!!! So, what I thought was a "range finder" was actually AA cover, at least in my example. Thanks again!! D

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 8

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/18/2019 7:00:52 AM

StuccoFresco

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From: Italy
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Good.

But what exactly is (in game) a furball? Is it a special air battle that occurs when there are a lot of air units on missions in a relatively small area?

(in reply to Hellen_slith)

Post #: 9

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/18/2019 8:54:04 AM

cathar1244

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From what I've seen in lab scenarios, "furball" seems to be the term used (in the game) for any aerial combat.

Cheers

quote:

ORIGINAL: StuccoFresco

Good.

But what exactly is (in game) a furball? Is it a special air battle that occurs when there are a lot of air units on missions in a relatively small area?

(in reply to StuccoFresco)

Post #: 10

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/18/2019 12:10:01 PM

Lobster

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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StuccoFresco

Good.

But what exactly is (in game) a furball? Is it a special air battle that occurs when there are a lot of air units on missions in a relatively small area?

Furball: A dogfight, or dog fight between fighter aircraft, conducted at close range...By the end of January, 1991, the term "furball" became a popular word to describe the hectic situation of many dogfights, occurring at the same time...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXzolQcUKNw

< Message edited by Lobster -- 4/18/2019 12:24:37 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/22/2019 1:12:31 PM

mussey

Posts: 650
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From: Cleve-Land
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quote:

Example: I have found that most Soviet air units w/ "F" in their name (e.g., Fishbed, Fishpot, Fireball) etc. are clearly to be used only as air superiority units .... while "Su" units are for more combat / interdiction / airfield attack roles)

This partially correct since some of these have 'fighter' and 'fighter-bomber' versions. My own game level experience is still at 'Newbie', so I still have much to learn. Not to put more pressure on Cathar, but he is in the process of creating a more redefined air euip file on many of the modern aircraft. These may include several versions of each airframe. Should be very interesting to see what his workshop rolls out...

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Post #: 12

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/22/2019 1:58:27 PM

sPzAbt653

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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

Example: I have found that most Soviet air units w/ "F" in their name (e.g., Fishbed, Fishpot, Fireball) etc. are clearly to be used only as air superiority units

There is a reason for that, lol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_reporting_name

(in reply to mussey)

Post #: 13

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 4/22/2019 2:07:45 PM

mirrorshades

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Joined: 3/16/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

quote:

Example: I have found that most Soviet air units w/ "F" in their name (e.g., Fishbed, Fishpot, Fireball) etc. are clearly to be used only as air superiority units .... while "Su" units are for more combat / interdiction / airfield attack roles)

This partially correct since some of these have 'fighter' and 'fighter-bomber' versions. My own game level experience is still at 'Newbie', so I still have much to learn.

I can't comment on the game/scenario specifically, but this is a NATO standard way of referring to Soviet/enemy equipment. Check out "NATO reporting name" on Wikipedia (apparently I'm such a forum n00b that I can't post links yet).

(in reply to mussey)

Post #: 14

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 8/11/2019 2:21:52 AM

larryfulkerson

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From: Tucson, AZ
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I thought the furballs were those air-2-air fights that happened during the inter-turn phase where there's the calculation of enemy AS value, the distribution of replacements, etc., but I'd be open to any proof that anybody has that they occur during the regular combat phases. A screenshot of it happening or something.

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if the human race ever does get to be space fairing and be able to visit other worlds, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

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Post #: 15

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 8/12/2019 4:56:24 PM

sPzAbt653

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From: east coast, usa
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I knew I had seen it happen, so I waited for it, took about eight turns then there it was, a Furball during the combat phase:

Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)

Post #: 16

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 8/12/2019 7:53:31 PM

larryfulkerson

Posts: 38328
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From: Tucson, AZ
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Thanks Steve. Proof that it happens during the turn(s). I'm impressed. I don't think it's a bug and there's nothing to "fix" IMHO.

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if the human race ever does get to be space fairing and be able to visit other worlds, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

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Post #: 17

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 8/12/2019 11:28:37 PM

sPzAbt653

Posts: 8858
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From: east coast, usa
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Maybe nothing to fix, but we could use the proper term 'dogfight' which everyone understands instead of the newage 'furball'.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)

Post #: 18

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 8/13/2019 1:51:58 AM

Lobster

Posts: 3184
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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Just two places to change it if you want to see something other than furball. Change it to dogfight or air vs air or my aunt flabby's underwear.

<s_5009 v="furball location" t="FURBALL_LOCATION_STRING"/>

<s_5010 v="overrun location" t="OVERRUN_LOCATION_STRING"/>

<s_5011 v="Click here to display Combat Results." t="ALL_COMBAT_RESULTS_INFO_HELP"/>

<s_5012 v="COMBAT RESULTS" t="ALL_COMBAT_RESULTS_TITLE_STRING"/>

<s_5013 v="Type" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING"/>

<s_5014 v="Round" t="ROUND_STRING"/>

<s_5015 v="Combat" t="TIMESTAMP_STRING"/>

<s_5016 v="land" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_LAND"/>

<s_5017 v="air" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_AIR"/>

<s_5018 v="sea" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_SEA"/>

<s_5019 v="nuke" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_NUKE"/>

<s_5020 v="bombardment" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_BOMBARD"/>

<s_5021 v="furball" t="BATTLE_TYPE_STRING_FURBALL"/>

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(in reply to sPzAbt653)

Post #: 19

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 8/17/2019 10:24:06 PM

sPzAbt653

Posts: 8858
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From: east coast, usa
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The Loss Report doesn't show any losses, for either side. Does that mean there are no losses? Looking at Post #16 I would guess that it doesn't keep track of these losses, therefore it doesn't report them.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 20

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 9/25/2019 4:53:14 AM

Hellen_slith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The Loss Report doesn't show any losses, for either side. Does that mean there are no losses?

I get a lot of furballs in Next War. It has been my experience that the furball that is named (in this example, the Warsaw Pact furball) ALWAYS eliminates the encroaching unit (in this example, the Royal Canadian AF unit.) Pact is the furball ... NATO encroached.

The losses only show up in the total inventory and replacements report/ they aren't shown like in other combat reports, which is a shame. But there are indeed losses.

Mr. Cross might be able to confirm or correct. I think it has been like this since ACOW, at least for the Next War scene.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 21

RE: Rebasing Aircraft and Furballs - 9/26/2019 4:13:38 AM

Hellen_slith

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Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

It's always been my understanding that the shorter the distance between attacking aircraft and their targets was a good thing ....

Yes, it has been my experience also that the shorter the distance to target, the less affect upon unit battlefield timestamp. Sometimes I can grind out up to 16 on the timestamp, if I'm careful.

Mileage may vary, depending on the situation :)

D

< Message edited by Hellen_slith -- 9/26/2019 4:17:08 AM >

(in reply to larryfulkerson)

Post #: 22