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RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry

 
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RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/6/2019 9:47:46 PM   
mussey


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From: Cleve-Land
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C. Larry, NATO hit the soft underbelly, and one of the weakest sectors in 'Sudden War'. If you can survive the die roll, I think his momentum will be partial and temporary. He may have used up quite a bit of early scarce resources, his REFORGER units are the only sizable reinforcements until much later. I'm curious how you will deploy the Soviet follow-up forces...

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 61
RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/6/2019 10:02:03 PM   
Hellen_slith


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Some observations from our game (fr. NATO side):

TNW-Expanded has even more chess-like qualities than TNW, but now they on steroids.

So many units. Love the new units. This is as close as we get (Occidentally, that is) to that Chinese (or is it Japanese) chess-like game with the board that's 128 x 128, and you have all kinds of units, from the Emperor down to the foot soldier. Not "Go" but that other game. ANYWAY,

Another chess-like quality, is the variety of "opening moves" that are possible in TNW and the Expanded ver. from Sudden and whatever Tension one might use.

You can either try to brute force your way through the center (your classic KP opening in Chess), or play the Austrian card ...

On NATO (like the black pieces in Chess, the "defender") you also have so many options. I like to "castle Queen-side" as I call it w/ the French (maybe the TOAW "French Defense"?) whereby I move Frenchies North to allow the Dutch and Belge to take up positions that naturally reinforce BAOR.

As for WG: Hamburg should (I think) always be abandoned by NATO, stat. Better to use those units BEHIND the river :) and let WP use up their supply getting across there. Plus, it just seems right, Hamburg is such a beautiful city.

Which makes me think: would NATO be better served to DISBAND Berlin ASAP on move 2 (or whatever turn it might be before WP bombs them?) That too, is a lost cause....would that equipment go into "the pool" instead?

Just wondering. Okay, anyway, Larry my friend: It looks like (not sure) from your screen shot, that EG is now in revolt, and thus those EG units I used to see are now kaputengegehgen?

If so, that was a pretty fair exchange, I think: the Austrians for the EG, that is. Very much like an exchange in Chess. I think we are approaching the "middle game" now. Looking forward to your move!

H

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 62
RE: The Next War 19799 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. l... - 5/6/2019 10:17:38 PM   
Hellen_slith


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[/quote]

After release of Beta, I tweaked GT #2 so that the WP suffers a 24hr movement penalty (to reflect assembling/de-assembling to/from motor pools); while NATO suffers a 48 hour movement penalty to reflect 24 hrs of delayed reaction plus the 24hrs to mobilize. In 'Tension' of multiple turns this has little impact, but in 'Sudden War' it creates some havoc. There is also a 2% chance of that each formation may be unable to move that turn. This may not seem like much, but in my tests with multiple formations it usually results with several being affected.

[/quote]

Ah, ok, that seems reasonable. I have started a lot of games in "hot seat" (just to move a few turns, to see how it feels with the events) and have noticed that sometimes this, sometimes that, so that explains it, sometimes I get to move these guys over there, sometimes this formation doesn't go ... it puts some variability into the opening moves that is very interesting to see at work, but is still very subtle. Lots of fun!!

Any recent news about a planned Alpha release date? :)

Thanks again for such a great expansion!

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 63
RE: The Next War 19799 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. l... - 5/6/2019 11:46:52 PM   
mussey


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quote:

I think we are approaching the "middle game"


You ain't seen nothing yet, the end of the first act is coming to a close for sure, but still in the beginning. Hellen, I'm curious where the Soviet 2nd echelon Fronts are, have they arrived at the front yet? Also curious about the Soviet Airborne Divs. One dropped in Norway, not sure where the others are.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 64
RE: The Next War 19799 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. l... - 5/7/2019 12:00:37 AM   
Hellen_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

quote:

I think we are approaching the "middle game"


You ain't seen nothing yet, the end of the first act is coming to a close for sure, but still in the beginning. Hellen, I'm curious where the Soviet 2nd echelon Fronts are, have they arrived at the front yet? Also curious about the Soviet Airborne Divs. One dropped in Norway, not sure where the others are.


I'm not sure ... I *am* sure that Larry has something up his sleeve.

He has been very ... insistent ... I guess that might be the word, that I not be able to move much, b/c I am struck by just wave after wave of his interdiction strikes. The "Air War" in this scene is very interesting. I have found that I actually have very few (non-nuclear) Pershing missiles left ... those guys ran out of ammo QUICK.

Where is 1979's version of Zaharoff when you need 'm?? I need more Pershing missiles.

Very fun scene!



< Message edited by Hellen_slith -- 5/7/2019 12:05:43 AM >

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 65
RE: The Next War 19799 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. l... - 5/7/2019 12:13:28 AM   
mussey


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From: Cleve-Land
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quote:



After release of Beta, I tweaked GT #2 so that the WP suffers a 24hr movement penalty (to reflect assembling/de-assembling to/from motor pools); while NATO suffers a 48 hour movement penalty to reflect 24 hrs of delayed reaction plus the 24hrs to mobilize. In 'Tension' of multiple turns this has little impact, but in 'Sudden War' it creates some havoc. There is also a 2% chance of that each formation may be unable to move that turn. This may not seem like much, but in my tests with multiple formations it usually results with several being affected.


With the advent of allowing players to choose 'Sudden War' or a selection of beginning game turns with 'Tension', Bob Cross has created a variety of what-if options. My aim in Expanded was to open up some grand strategy so that both forces could take advantage of their strengths, and deployment options of reinforcements. The expansion to include Norway and surround seas is one example.

That being said, several high level intelligence reports (CIA, NSA, DIA) highly suggested that the Soviets would NOT have invaded until Front HQ's were established, and another Front was deployed in East Germany (probably the Polish). They estimated 4-8 days. And yet, war directly out of the barracks (I think) would greatly help the WP by allowing their air force to get a jump, and allowing their land units to capture entry-level key points for their 2nd and 3rd echelon forces.

Keep at it, your AAR allows me to make a few more revisions before final release.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 66
RE: The Next War 19799 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. l... - 5/7/2019 12:20:34 AM   
mussey


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quote:

Larry has something up his sleeve.


LOL. Of course he does. He's an evil genius. And you stole his goat by taking Karl Marx Stadt. Now that you took it, what are you going to do with it and how are you going to get out?

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 67
RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/7/2019 12:24:04 AM   
Hellen_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

New moves from Damon. He has thrust some troops into my front lines and has made a breech and I need to fix it ASAP because this is a game changer. I'm not sure what kind of reply I can mount.



Don't forget Pennemunde up North.

Those Danes are feeling randy up there...

I think that's what you call, a "double - check" there, in Chess terms, what w/ USAEUR funneling cash into EG ...

Interesting game!!!


(in reply to larryfulkerson)
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RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/7/2019 2:44:00 AM   
Hellen_slith


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as of NATO beginning Turn 5:





Attachment (1)

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RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/7/2019 5:32:49 AM   
Hellen_slith


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All these colos makes me think about Santa...all the reads and greens ....

Hre is the area around Fulda Gap, or there abouts:





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RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/7/2019 7:39:12 AM   
cathar1244

 

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What are the divisional-sized engineer units in the Pact forces?

Cheers

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RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/7/2019 12:16:32 PM   
mussey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

What are the divisional-sized engineer units in the Pact forces?

Cheers


The orbats for a Soviet Front includes division-sized engineers that comprise of 3-4 brigades. Since Beta, I broke down several of them into their brigade equivalents.

At times I am conflicted of including many of these engineers on both sides since there appears to be little use for them. (I migrated to TOAW from WITP AE where they have a huge impact). Some engineers have been omitted and their assets divided among the combat units.

Survey Question to Larry and Hellen: Are you utilizing the many engineers, or do they just add clutter?

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to cathar1244)
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RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/7/2019 1:10:33 PM   
cathar1244

 

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Bear in mind many of the engineers would be busy maintaining roads behind the lines. I read somewhere a long time ago that was the bulk of engineering activity for U.S. engineers in the 1944-45 campaign in NW Europe.

Cheers

(in reply to mussey)
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RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/7/2019 3:47:44 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey
quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244
What are the divisional-sized engineer units in the Pact forces?

The orbats for a Soviet Front includes division-sized engineers that comprise of 3-4 brigades. Since Beta, I broke down several of them into their brigade equivalents.

At times I am conflicted of including many of these engineers on both sides since there appears to be little use for them. (I migrated to TOAW from WITP AE where they have a huge impact). Some engineers have been omitted and their assets divided among the combat units.

Survey Question to Larry and Hellen: Are you utilizing the many engineers, or do they just add clutter?

I've had several bridges to fix. I need those engineers. They help my units dig in faster. They are handy for plugging a front line hole quickly. I wish they could fix the rails as well as bridges.

_____________________________

you can't get off unless you cough.

(in reply to cathar1244)
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RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/7/2019 11:48:15 PM   
mussey


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I continually learn as we move along. One item that I contemplated was the introduction of paramilitary forces. Since Beta, the Territorial Reserves of W.Ger, UK, and a few Natl Gd units of the US were added.

Now since watching you two hammer away at each other, I decided to add the "The Combat Groups of the Working Class (German: Kampfgruppen der Arbeiterklasse, KdA) was a paramilitary organization in the German Democratic Republic (GDR) from 1953 to 1989.

The KdA served as the de facto militia of the ruling Socialist Unity Party of Germany composed of party members and politically reliable working people, based on dictatorship of the proletariat principles, to be deployed locally to fight civil unrest or invasion. The KdA was a civil reserve force tied to the GDR's Ministry of the Interior and the Volkspolizei, reaching 211,000 personnel at its peak in 1980..."
[Wiki]

These add a lot of units - about 45 regiment-size units. 20 will be added as fixed in the cities of East Germany, 25 will be mobile to follow the Soviet invasion as rear security. To balance this out, I will add a Guerrilla Event. This is new, I hope I don't break this scenario.

Kudos to both of you for reporting an excellent match-up, showcasing this new game, and providing feedback.








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_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to mussey)
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RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/7/2019 11:52:09 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

One item that I contemplated was the introduction of paramilitary forces.

In addition to the paramilitary forces, I'd like to lobby for such organizations such as
the SAS, SBS, Delta Force, USN Seals, Green Berets, etc.

_____________________________

you can't get off unless you cough.

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 76
RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/7/2019 11:58:20 PM   
mussey


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quote:

I wish they could fix the rails as well as bridges.


I could alter the equipment of regular engineers to also fix rails (? I think). If so, should I try this? Also, thinking outside the box, what other flags could I plausible mark to give these units added utility...

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 77
RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/7/2019 11:59:41 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

quote:

I wish they could fix the rails as well as bridges.


I could alter the equipment of regular engineers to also fix rails (? I think). If so, should I try this? Also, thinking outside the box, what other flags could I plausible mark to give these units added utility...

How about minor and major ferry abilities?

_____________________________

you can't get off unless you cough.

(in reply to mussey)
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RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/8/2019 12:12:36 AM   
mussey


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quote:

How about minor and major ferry abilities?


Exactly. If altered, the new engineer could do all three: engineer/rail/ferry, mitigating the breakdown of function in the TOAW equipment. These guys were a jack-of-all-trades. Are there any other flags such as combat, or naval, or air that could be used? Maybe a air base with added supply?

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to larryfulkerson)
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RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/8/2019 12:14:53 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

Maybe a[n] air base with added supply?

I'm not sure I know what you mean here. The presence of the engineer unit boosts the supply available at the air base? Like they act like a supply depot or a supply unit or something?

_____________________________

you can't get off unless you cough.

(in reply to mussey)
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RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/8/2019 12:32:40 AM   
mussey


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quote:

The presence of the engineer unit boosts the supply available at the air base? Like they act like a supply depot or a supply unit or something?


Kind of, sort of, yes... but only for that hex (?) WITP uses engineer air bases that kind of do this (and much more). If plausible, this would allow invading forces to occupy an air base and quickly turn it around for friendly use...

[Edit], and if you think about it, are not engineers similar to supply units in that they improve the infrastructure so that more supplies can flow through? (Way outside the box).

< Message edited by mussey -- 5/8/2019 12:36:21 AM >


_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 81
RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/8/2019 12:39:18 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey
quote:

The presence of the engineer unit boosts the supply available at the air base? Like they act like a supply depot or a supply unit or something?


Kind of, sort of, yes... but only for that hex (?) WITP[-AE] uses "engineer air bases" that kind of do this (and much more). If plausible, this would allow invading forces to occupy an air base and quickly turn it around for friendly use...

I've got a WITP-AE game going on right now against a master player and he's teaching me a lot. Um...I'm learning to put all the base ground units in the invading TF all together because the INF can capture the island ( and the airfield, and the mess hall, and the guard shack at the gate ) but it takes the AF troops to service the planes. Load the bombs, fuel the planes, fix the bullet holes, etc. And the SeaBees can repair all the damage to the buildings and fill the holes in the runway, get the phone service working again, etc. It takes a team to make it all happen.

_____________________________

you can't get off unless you cough.

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 82
RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/8/2019 10:58:19 AM   
mussey


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Larry & Hellen, you'll get a kick out of this. Due to fascist NATO aggression a new border and internal security system has put in place. This includes x18 border bns (fixed), x20 militia rgts (fixed), x25 mobile security. The Czechs have some too.






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_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 83
RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/8/2019 12:41:50 PM   
Hellen_slith


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Here is the map at the end of NATO turn 5





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(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 84
RE: The Next War 19799 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. l... - 5/8/2019 2:35:34 PM   
Hellen_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

quote:

Larry has something up his sleeve.


LOL. Of course he does. He's an evil genius. And you stole his goat by taking Karl Marx Stadt. Now that you took it, what are you going to do with it and how are you going to get out?


Going to swing for the fences. I've found those helos are very handy behind the lines there, so SAS is going on a little foray. Trying to disrupt as much flow of reinforcements as I can, while leading as many others on a rabbit hunt.

Meanwhile, I managed to squeak through some of the central lines around the tip of the Fulda Gap and have got some recons going around there ... trying to cut as much supply as I can, and just general chaos (Peenemunde to harass the Northern Group and distract any more flow toward Hamburg.)

Still a draw (by points) at this point, and it looks like I need about 600 more VPs before I can even think about a marginal victory. The 101st Airmobile "Screaming Eagles" will soon be ready, and that will help my cause immensely.

Second Armored "Hell On Wheels" is finally almost ready to enter the fray, as are the 82d All Americans. So w/ those three divisions on line and coordinating, I should be able to wreak even more havoc over the next few turns. I hope :)

With this being WP turn 6, we have definitely entered into the "middle game" part of the war. It will be interesting to see WP move, I am expecting that his Group North (Linengrad / Baltic) will move toward center, and of course he still has many units back toward Moscow that will be moving forward.

Good game!!



< Message edited by Hellen_slith -- 5/8/2019 5:20:16 PM >

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 85
RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/8/2019 4:04:52 PM   
Hellen_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

Larry & Hellen, you'll get a kick out of this. Due to fascist NATO aggression a new border and internal security system has put in place. This includes x18 border bns (fixed), x20 militia rgts (fixed), x25 mobile security. The Czechs have some too.



JMHO, I think the EG "fortress" icons along that road there might be a bit too strong. I mean, I can see some Irregulars posted there (a la the Norwegian Irregulars) for EG and Cz, but the fortresses seem a bit much. WP already has tons of materiel to be able to reinforce those hexes ... which they should be fr. turn 2 .... To me, that little seam has always been sort of the "sticky" point for both forces.

Great scene!!

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 86
RE: The Next War 19799 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. l... - 5/8/2019 5:54:31 PM   
Hellen_slith


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quote:



Hey wait a minute. This PDF pertains to "The Next War" and we've already got one of those scenarios. Are we going to convert this and give it a different name or something?


Yes, we shall call it ... The Next NEXT War 1989 and include Yugoslavia and Afghanistan and make it 72 moves in full Tension mode, "Iron Man" style (w/ an obligatory 17 move build up).

Now THAT would be AWESOME. We need more ORBATs to fill in all the reinforcements that would come on line in a scene like that. Throw in some CSV-like options for planning reinforcements, and you've got a hell of game.

Just dreaming :)

H

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 87
RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/8/2019 6:07:05 PM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith


quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

Larry & Hellen, you'll get a kick out of this. Due to fascist NATO aggression a new border and internal security system has put in place. This includes x18 border bns (fixed), x20 militia rgts (fixed), x25 mobile security. The Czechs have some too.



JMHO, I think the EG "fortress" icons along that road there might be a bit too strong. I mean, I can see some Irregulars posted there (a la the Norwegian Irregulars) for EG and Cz, but the fortresses seem a bit much. WP already has tons of materiel to be able to reinforce those hexes ... which they should be fr. turn 2 .... To me, that little seam has always been sort of the "sticky" point for both forces.

Great scene!!


I would guess those units are shown as fixed so they don't get used as infantry auxiliaries by the Pact player.

This is a challenging part of the situation to include in the scenario. Neither side should be able to drop airborne or airmobile units in enemy territory without encountering the militia or territorial troops. Yet the territorial troops are practically fighting their own separate war -- "rear area combat operations" as it was called in the 1980s. It is the same with World War II scenarios. How much does the scenario designer want to represent partisan operations? Doing that means a lot of extra units and possibly distorting effects in the scenario.

Cheers

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 88
RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/8/2019 6:14:27 PM   
Hellen_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith


quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

Larry & Hellen, you'll get a kick out of this. Due to fascist NATO aggression a new border and internal security system has put in place. This includes x18 border bns (fixed), x20 militia rgts (fixed), x25 mobile security. The Czechs have some too.



JMHO, I think the EG "fortress" icons along that road there might be a bit too strong. I mean, I can see some Irregulars posted there (a la the Norwegian Irregulars) for EG and Cz, but the fortresses seem a bit much. WP already has tons of materiel to be able to reinforce those hexes ... which they should be fr. turn 2 .... To me, that little seam has always been sort of the "sticky" point for both forces.

Great scene!!


I would guess those units are shown as fixed so they don't get used as infantry auxiliaries by the Pact player.


Ah, ok, I did not think of that. But, I think those fortress icons might give too much boost. I think they have some sort of force field on them. I'm thinking of course of Scutari Fortress in Balkans 12 ... turns out that thing is near impregnable. Just didn't want WP to get too much help!! Hard enough for NATO as it is, LoL!! :)

How are the new colors going? Will we see them soon? :)

H

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 89
RE: The Next War 1979 Expanded ( Beta 1.0 ) Damon v. larry - 5/8/2019 7:05:49 PM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

But, I think those fortress icons might give too much boost.


I would have to check, but the effects that come to mind are fortified hexes (requires a map change), and the use of equipment that is flagged as "fixed" (fixed guns have defense factors of 10 and higher IIRC). I don't think the unit icon alone will do anything but make the defense a bit more dogged because the unit can't retreat as it is static.

I expect Mussey's next release of this scenario will include the changed counter colors.

Cheers

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 90
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