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RE: Determining fixed wing aircraft AA and DF values

 
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RE: Determining fixed wing aircraft AA and DF values - 4/10/2019 5:43:26 PM   
cathar1244

 

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JosAnt,

Kind of interesting. F-22 itself is a 1990s design, but a long development meant it didn't reach squadron service until the mid 2000s. Below assessment rates it as having 2000's-era avionics. Weapons load is considered as one Vulcan 20mm cannon, 2 AIM-9X missiles, and 4 AIM-120C missiles. F-22 has radar warning receiver, missile approach warning system, and countermeasures available.

                          AA   DF

Standard Equipment DB     60   60

My method                 54   67


A high DF, but if the Wikipedia article is correct, it is practically a stealth aircraft that gives a radar return equivalent to that of a steel marble. Interestingly, the standard database does not appear to credit that.

Cheers

Note on source of data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor


quote:

ORIGINAL: josant

OK, many thanks for the help

One last petition; what would be the values of AA and defence for the state of the art F-22 ?


(in reply to josant)
Post #: 31
RE: Determining fixed wing aircraft AA and DF values - 4/10/2019 6:05:02 PM   
cathar1244

 

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StuccoFresco, the story apparently varies and may be mix of different stories (about par for the course for these kind of tales). But one version I saw was claimed to be written by the fellow who had been the pilot.

He said the Harrier "inhaled" a bird and the engine began to work erratically. Fearing he would crash, the pilot ejected and landed safely ... and watched his Harrier pick up altitude and continue on. He said what had happened is that the ejection seat launch cleared the mess off the entry to the engine and it then worked as it should. Per this version, the Harrier was not shot down but continued north until it impacted terrain in Denmark.

Cheers


quote:

ORIGINAL: StuccoFresco

quote:

An interesting Lightning story is that in 1972, an RAF Lightning was used to shoot down an RAF Harrier over West Germany. The Harrier's pilot had bailed out, but the Harrier kept flying -- due east --, and was shot down to avoid an incident with the Soviet Union.


This is both interesting and hilarious. Why did the pilot bail out?


(in reply to StuccoFresco)
Post #: 32
RE: Determining fixed wing aircraft AA and DF values - 4/10/2019 6:08:51 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 567
Joined: 9/5/2009
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Victor, yes, the devil is in the details with any of these ratings. When I have a set of revised entries for the equipment file, only use in scenarios will reveal if the new definitions are okay or not. At the least, anyone using the method I identified will know where the numbers for AA and DF come from.

Cheers

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 33
RE: Determining fixed wing aircraft AA and DF values - 4/11/2019 12:39:00 PM   
mussey


Posts: 650
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
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quote:

only use in scenarios will reveal if the new definitions are okay or not


Looking forward to it!

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 34
RE: Determining fixed wing aircraft AA and DF values - 4/18/2019 7:58:45 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 567
Joined: 9/5/2009
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Brief update.

The heavy bomber equipment in TOAW apparently used a different rating method than the smaller aircraft. In keeping with my desire to not alter the current ratings too much, I will leave the heavy bombers alone until I gain a better understanding as to how they were rated. (The method I mentioned above generates a defense factor rating that is too high for the heavy bombers.) My sense at the moment is that the standard DB rates them as too weak, but they're typically not a critical element of scenarios, so no real harm in waiting a bit on those.

Our colleague Mr. Mussey has kindly offered to "host" air units rated by my method in an update of his Next War Expanded scenario, so that will be a great opportunity to see how 1960s and 1970s aircraft equipment interact in TOAW with the new ratings. Thanks, Mussey! Players may find Soviet aircraft have improved capability ...

As an aside, "converting" the ratings is a huge exercise in data collection and interpretation. I think now that it will be better to move in stages and provide equipment updates based on historical eras rather than trying to convert the entire air equipment DB at one go.

Cheers

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 35
RE: Determining fixed wing aircraft AA and DF values - 4/18/2019 9:13:49 PM   
mussey


Posts: 650
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Brief update.

The heavy bomber equipment in TOAW apparently used a different rating method than the smaller aircraft. In keeping with my desire to not alter the current ratings too much, I will leave the heavy bombers alone until I gain a better understanding as to how they were rated. (The method I mentioned above generates a defense factor rating that is too high for the heavy bombers.) My sense at the moment is that the standard DB rates them as too weak, but they're typically not a critical element of scenarios, so no real harm in waiting a bit on those.

Our colleague Mr. Mussey has kindly offered to "host" air units rated by my method in an update of his Next War Expanded scenario, so that will be a great opportunity to see how 1960s and 1970s aircraft equipment interact in TOAW with the new ratings. Thanks, Mussey! Players may find Soviet aircraft have improved capability ...

As an aside, "converting" the ratings is a huge exercise in data collection and interpretation. I think now that it will be better to move in stages and provide equipment updates based on historical eras rather than trying to convert the entire air equipment DB at one go.

Cheers


Absolutely! Many tweaks have been added since Beta and Cathar's new aircraft model, I believe, will make this scenario a more accurate depiction of modern land, air, and naval combat in the late 1970's. He has given me a generous amount of his time and expertise that has been indispensable in creating a better game. As we await this roll-out, I've been going over (yet again) some map and orbat modifications brought to my attention. We are in the final stretch...


< Message edited by mussey -- 4/18/2019 9:16:17 PM >


_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 36
RE: Determining fixed wing aircraft AA and DF values - 8/1/2019 1:43:07 AM   
StreetF16

 

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Joined: 2/16/2019
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A TOAW IV newbie question that may apply to this thread -- does the DF value apply to both air-to-air combat and defense against anti-aircraft weapons? If so then in many cases it will need to be a compromise.

Also -- while some modern SAMs are included in the game, there is no special antiradiation missile targeting capability (like torpedo bombers vs ships). Trying to lump an aircraft's defensive strength vs SAMs, AAA, and enemy aircraft into a single value seems a stretch even for an operational-level simulation.

_____________________________


(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 37
RE: Determining fixed wing aircraft AA and DF values - 8/2/2019 6:50:07 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 567
Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

does the DF value apply to both air-to-air combat and defense against anti-aircraft weapons?


Yes, it does.

Cheers

(in reply to StreetF16)
Post #: 38
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