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RE: Axis MP Strategy Guide - 8/26/2020 1:36:33 PM   
Erse

 

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I think the information above is out of date and you should only annex Lithuania if you plan to Barbarossa in 1940, since they'll mobilize quite rapidly otherwise.

Erse

(in reply to Dazo)
Post #: 31
RE: Axis MP Strategy Guide - 8/26/2020 2:06:44 PM   
PanzerCro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erse

I think the information above is out of date and you should only annex Lithuania if you plan to Barbarossa in 1940, since they'll mobilize quite rapidly otherwise.

Erse


Ok thanks !

(in reply to Erse)
Post #: 32
RE: Axis MP Strategy Guide (Lithuanian gambit) - 8/27/2020 4:29:38 AM   
Aussiematto

 

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Joined: 2/13/2011
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Am getting my backside kicked hard by an opponent who (unlike most) took Lithuania to accelerate his attack on the USSR. Now, his strategy is very conservative elsewhere (which has had consequences, see below) but he definitely put a lot of effort into Barbarossa. How did it go?

1) USSR mobilised early and I got all of the new units ahead of his attack. I promptly moved most of them well out of the way, while sacrificing a couple to 'slow down' the panzers (aka get slaughtered). I'd probably overspent on research, trying to get AT units +1, and (I think) I built another HQ (since I had not expected to rescue Budyenny from the border). This, combined with an illfated attack on Finland (which failed because the one tech I needed, armored warfare, stubbornly refused to go to 1 and because I put my ship in the wrong place to reduce Helsinki's port value), meant I have been short of units, despite the early mobilisation. I note that the MPP cost of moving units (and their resulting lower morale) might actually have been to his benefit. Maybe I should have sacrificed the lot?

2) His taking of Lithuania (combined with me knowing Finland was coming in) made me very wary about losing Leningrad. As a result I heavily fortified Leningrad (2 lines of defences) which is great - Leningrad is definitely safe but... I overread his ploy which was aimed more at Moscow. I am now at December and he's knocking on the Kremlin door while the south is going to fall soon because I threw everything into holding Moscow.

3) My desperate defence of the Motherland would probably have gone even worse but for the fact I'd done some diplomacy on Greece, and when the coup in Yugoslavia occurred, Greece swung into the war unexpectedly. A small sacrifical Soviet Amphib diversion into Bulgaria helped too. So some Hungarians, the Bulgarian corps and at least one panzer got left behind for some turns helping mash Yugoslavia and stiffen the Italians in Greece, where he is just about to break me since I could not get the right British units in there in time.

4) His conservative strategy (no u-boat campaign, complete surrender in the desert by Italy) has however had a bad outcome for him. THE RN rules supreme in the Med, and I've had the Rhodesians fight their way into Turn with 4 carriers for air support and am bringing in all the troops I can muster (using the fact Vichy is neutral to guard the rear). Spezia has just fallen so I might have a transport option soon as well as amphibious. The cream of the Italian army are in greece too. And now the USA is in, Soviet morale gets the double boost from landing and US entry.

So, end result?

Really hard to tell yet since the positive benefit of Lithuania was massively offset by USSR early entry (he was I think 1 turn late in being ready... USSR joined in May, and he was planning June Barbarossa), BUT, the gambit spooked me into over-defending Leningrad. Had I been playing conservatively vs Finland I think the Lithuanian adventure would have been catastrophic. But, had he been more aggressive in the Med (or at least fought a defensive campaign and distracted RN with subs), then the resulting stronger Italian position would have given him more time and troops in Russia. I also cannot tell if the right Soviet strategy is to throw away the forward troops or save them (excepting the obvious, like the HQ)

So in the end, perhaps my advice is actually for USSR - if Lithuania gets taken, don't over think Leningrad and instead play more conservatively, hoarding MPPs for a bitter fight in the north until winter and mud. I have also noted that I need to be more careful in what I spend on research so the flaws in my current situation are mostly my fault and not because he was gazumped by the early DoW by Russia. His tactical play is outstanding.

If I were to try as Axis to take Lithuania I would be planning well ahead for an April Barbarossa, weather permitting and, potentially, trying to fake Russia into a northern defence, while massing panzers south instead. EG use it as a deception even if that seems counter-intuitive.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Dazo)
Post #: 33
RE: Axis MP Strategy Guide (Lithuanian gambit) - 8/27/2020 6:55:21 PM   
James Taylor

 

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Joined: 2/8/2002
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I'm only going to mention this because its not a strategy I see referred to very often. It is not easily implemented and requires naval skill, but is potentially a game changer.

The super KB. You have two years of uncontested allied meddling to build, tech, and gain the experience to over-strength this vast armada.

They can go almost anywhere and kill anything, only the vast interior of the USSR is exempt.

The only Allied counter is the USA and UK fleets and with them engaged what happens to USSR when they are double teamed?

< Message edited by James Taylor -- 8/27/2020 6:58:40 PM >


_____________________________

SeaMonkey

(in reply to Aussiematto)
Post #: 34
RE: Axis MP Strategy Guide (Lithuanian gambit) - 8/27/2020 9:37:40 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

Posts: 208
Joined: 1/22/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aussiematto

Am getting my backside kicked hard by an opponent who (unlike most) took Lithuania to accelerate his attack on the USSR. Now, his strategy is very conservative elsewhere (which has had consequences, see below) but he definitely put a lot of effort into Barbarossa. How did it go?

1) USSR mobilised early and I got all of the new units ahead of his attack. I promptly moved most of them well out of the way, while sacrificing a couple to 'slow down' the panzers (aka get slaughtered). I'd probably overspent on research, trying to get AT units +1, and (I think) I built another HQ (since I had not expected to rescue Budyenny from the border). This, combined with an illfated attack on Finland (which failed because the one tech I needed, armored warfare, stubbornly refused to go to 1 and because I put my ship in the wrong place to reduce Helsinki's port value), meant I have been short of units, despite the early mobilisation. I note that the MPP cost of moving units (and their resulting lower morale) might actually have been to his benefit. Maybe I should have sacrificed the lot?

2) His taking of Lithuania (combined with me knowing Finland was coming in) made me very wary about losing Leningrad. As a result I heavily fortified Leningrad (2 lines of defences) which is great - Leningrad is definitely safe but... I overread his ploy which was aimed more at Moscow. I am now at December and he's knocking on the Kremlin door while the south is going to fall soon because I threw everything into holding Moscow.

3) My desperate defence of the Motherland would probably have gone even worse but for the fact I'd done some diplomacy on Greece, and when the coup in Yugoslavia occurred, Greece swung into the war unexpectedly. A small sacrifical Soviet Amphib diversion into Bulgaria helped too. So some Hungarians, the Bulgarian corps and at least one panzer got left behind for some turns helping mash Yugoslavia and stiffen the Italians in Greece, where he is just about to break me since I could not get the right British units in there in time.

4) His conservative strategy (no u-boat campaign, complete surrender in the desert by Italy) has however had a bad outcome for him. THE RN rules supreme in the Med, and I've had the Rhodesians fight their way into Turn with 4 carriers for air support and am bringing in all the troops I can muster (using the fact Vichy is neutral to guard the rear). Spezia has just fallen so I might have a transport option soon as well as amphibious. The cream of the Italian army are in greece too. And now the USA is in, Soviet morale gets the double boost from landing and US entry.

So, end result?

Really hard to tell yet since the positive benefit of Lithuania was massively offset by USSR early entry (he was I think 1 turn late in being ready... USSR joined in May, and he was planning June Barbarossa), BUT, the gambit spooked me into over-defending Leningrad. Had I been playing conservatively vs Finland I think the Lithuanian adventure would have been catastrophic. But, had he been more aggressive in the Med (or at least fought a defensive campaign and distracted RN with subs), then the resulting stronger Italian position would have given him more time and troops in Russia. I also cannot tell if the right Soviet strategy is to throw away the forward troops or save them (excepting the obvious, like the HQ)

So in the end, perhaps my advice is actually for USSR - if Lithuania gets taken, don't over think Leningrad and instead play more conservatively, hoarding MPPs for a bitter fight in the north until winter and mud. I have also noted that I need to be more careful in what I spend on research so the flaws in my current situation are mostly my fault and not because he was gazumped by the early DoW by Russia. His tactical play is outstanding.

If I were to try as Axis to take Lithuania I would be planning well ahead for an April Barbarossa, weather permitting and, potentially, trying to fake Russia into a northern defence, while massing panzers south instead. EG use it as a deception even if that seems counter-intuitive.


An interesting read! Care to show later development?

I would personally vote against taking Lithuania. 20-25% mobilization swing may easily translate into around 700 additional MPP's for Soviets. They can invest it in additional tech or some units. For example, a Heavy Tank, perhaps only unit on par with German ones in early war, costs around 300 MPP's. With some planning you can get two and cause a lot of pain to GER. Is being about 2 turns closer to Leningrad enough compensation? Doubtful, because Leningrad is possibly the least important of 3 main soviet cities.
On the other hand, Lithuania annexation is one of the most interesting DE's in the game and can warp dynamic of whole Eastern Front. I am very glad it is in the game.


_____________________________


(in reply to Aussiematto)
Post #: 35
RE: Axis MP Strategy Guide (Lithuanian gambit) - 8/28/2020 2:01:58 AM   
Aussiematto

 

Posts: 338
Joined: 2/13/2011
From: Australia
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I will turn this into a somewhat during the action report, if that is ok?

So, The next update is as follows

This is a really interesting game: though I suspect I have the upper hand, my defence of Russia is notoriously bad and the successes I am about to have elsewhere may not count for much if the Fascist invaders can swarm to the urals...

We are now at Christmas 1941 and Comrade Generalissimo Stalin is none too pleased with his incompetent generals (I am being enrolled as a private in a penal battalion as we speak).

Winter has struck, thank goodness, and while Sevastapol holds and is largely being ignored, Rostov has fallen and Stalingrad is barely defended. Leningrad smugly hides behind its trenches while random Cossacks and T-34s pillage Finland having failed to take Helsinki. A lot of troops and an HQ from the Nazis have poured into Finland which, I suppose, is something of a relief to our comrades in Moscow. The capital is under threat and the limited defensive works have been turned from the South. Only a miracle will save it come 1942. I shall not reveal more lest Nazi spies are reading :).

Soviet spirits are buoyed by the continuing success of the Commonwealth in northern italy. Vichy French border guards, busily smoking Gaulois, refuse to intervene despite their apparent alliance with Hitler, thus meaning that the British 7th Armoured and Desert Recce force can deploy easily from their amazing 1941 amphibous transports to enjoy what supplies we can find in Turin. Italy, morale already at a shaky 50%, throws its garrisons into the fray while the RN pounds them from now 5 carriers. A redeployed Army from Rome does pose a threat, and I spy some C&C benefits now an HQ has arrived. Who knows what more I can fit into that little pocket as I start to drive on Venice?

Meanwhile the Kreigsmarine is attempting (successfully) to lure an overly aggressive Home Fleet into a battle for the Norwegian convoy lanes. Will Churchill order a withdrawal or will the combination of U-boats and capital ships add to the three RN vessels already sunk? Still, there's a flood of supplies heading to Murmansk and no interruption to the UK's trade so I think this is a win. My carrier battle group in the Med has other things to worry about so perhaps I'll let the trade through and do a Jackie Fisher from WWI

What I did not discuss in my last update is the peculiar state of the war in China. It appears everything at Japan's disposal is being thrown into this fight. I am fighting off hordes of Naval infantry and special forces who have decided that dying in the mud of China is more effective than dying on far off islands. Morale is good, but the grinding war of attrition (in which China had, by late 1941 reclaimed Canton, Wuhan, and Amoy) is telling. Battered Chinese armies, with good morale, are running out of men and a stunning paratroop assault has taken Chongking. Still, Burma has now joined the war, so some more supplies will appear (while I retain a tenuous hold on Nanning just for now). Mao finally has realised he better join the fight which will provide the grunt needed to retake the capital.

With the USA in the war, and the Phillipines mobilised and alert, it appears unlikely there is a major amphibious threat here, or to the DEI or, indeed, anywhere. I might be wrong of course. My opponent has serious skills and has a clear strategy which I still do not fully grasp.

So now there is an enormous strategic question for the Allies. How much will it take to save Russia? Where is that force best applied? Can I ignore Japan as it grinds over the remnants of the Chinese army or would some pressure there now stabilise things enough for a concerted campaign into western europe? Stalin grows impatient for what he calls "the real second front" (as if the fierce fighting in Italy is merely a sideshow). Greece remains a concern - the tight front and mountains are just about holding up the Italians but this is now drawing men whom I need in Italy!

The joy of MP - nothing ever goes as expected. (and yes, the Lithuania decision is a beauty - it's something which really makes the game different, as opposed to the other decisions which largely are historical quirks).

_____________________________

I still remember cardboard!

(in reply to Marcinos1985)
Post #: 36
RE: Axis MP Strategy Guide (Lithuanian gambit) - 8/31/2020 12:32:21 AM   
Aussiematto

 

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So, for those who may be following this (shout out if you want more)...

We are now into 1942 and my opponent has continued his crushing success in the USSR but suffers reverses elsewhere. It's really going to be a test of 'if you beat Russia nothing else matters'.

Update from Turin. Sadly, Lord Gort and a few remaining HQ troops will shortly be marching off to Colditz, past the burnt out wreckage of several Brit units (planes, tanks, armoured cars and more). I did not get the port, and a swarm of Germans appeared to replace the hapless Italians and the inevitable happened. Stalin furious at Brit incompetence.

The pressure in Russia is intense but partly relieved by the fact that Finland has surrendered! Perhaps lulled into a false sense of security by my poor play, the Germans went after my special forces in Turku and ended up parking a low strength 0 tech infantry corps in Helsinki. A judicious combination of infantry, mech and air attacks busted it, and I had just enough gas in the tanks of my BA-10s to move a mech unit in. Finland is now learning the delights of Communism :). Still, Moscow has fallen and despite 2 AT units attacking the panzer which ended up in the Kremlin, it just survived (1 point remaining!!). Stalingrad gets cut off and just escapes back into supply while nothing very much happens outside Leningrad (again). A last ditch defence of Kubyachev looms in the summer of 42 and I am not hopeful, especially since my morale is being shaken by Japanese threats to Vladivostok. Nothing I can do but throw away the lives of workers and peasants and pray.

Fresh from the debacle in northern Italy, the Allies are trying again, this time in Sicily, sensing that a decisive blow might bust the Italians once and for all. It's more hope than planning, though because there is not enough AV capacity to do it properly. The USA is still lumbering into action - its attention had been on the looming naval war in the Pacific. the investment in naval tech looks impressive as it smashes un-upgraded Jap carriers off the coast of northern China and sinks every transport it can find, while guarding unimpeded amphibious attacks into Saipan, Truk and the like. But what I really need is Patton in Northern Europe and that is a long way off.

China's capital has returned to friendly hands, which has boosted supply and morale across the front and the initial onslaught from the Japanese SF has abated. They just don't have the staying power of armies and there's no airpower and not enough HQs anymore. Japan is doomed (as my opponent admits) but it will take years of grinding combat.

The Kriegsmarine equally has met its match. Seizing on the Bismark's efforts to keep the Finnish ports open where a rump of Nazis hold out, the RN swarmed the Kattegat and Heligoland Bight and is sinking everything it can. Airpower which was being wasted trying to save Gort's backside in Italy is now where it belongs, in the North Sea. a sub, a cruiser and a destroyer are down and 2 more subs are nearly gone.

This is the most fun game, in some ways, because the Allies are able to achieve some serious successes everywhere EXCEPT the USSR. I just need to work out how to keep the USSR in the war long enough to avoid Japan and Germany carving it up between them. If not, I am suspecting I'll need level 5 Amphibious for US, UK and India to have any hope of getting ashore

More to come if you want it

_____________________________

I still remember cardboard!

(in reply to Aussiematto)
Post #: 37
RE: Axis MP Strategy Guide (Lithuanian gambit) - 8/31/2020 1:55:08 AM   
Bo Rearguard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aussiematto



More to come if you want it



It's an entertaining narrative so far. Keep it coming. It seems games are seldom routine in MP.

_____________________________

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist ...." Union General John Sedgwick, 1864

(in reply to Aussiematto)
Post #: 38
RE: Axis MP Strategy Guide (Lithuanian gambit) - 8/31/2020 2:04:50 AM   
Aussiematto

 

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Joined: 2/13/2011
From: Australia
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Thanks!

Look for my account of a new game with an old foe in the AAR section (where this probably should be) - coming soon

_____________________________

I still remember cardboard!

(in reply to Bo Rearguard)
Post #: 39
RE: Axis MP Strategy Guide (Lithuanian gambit) - 9/2/2020 1:42:15 AM   
Aussiematto

 

Posts: 338
Joined: 2/13/2011
From: Australia
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Brief update ...

So we are now in September 42. The germans continue to make mincemeat of the USSR. At this rate it falls by end of 43. I am rebuilding for a last stand at Kyubashev while now some action is threatening Leningrad. Defences OK and am unsure if it is a feint or serious. Suspect the latter, sadly. No spare men there, all in the east. Germans are invincible and while i am trying to balance tech v men, the real hope is west.

India now has a port in Sicily and in come the reinforcements. While not ideal, i have had no choice but to land 4 US armies and an hq in the netherlands to try and help Stalin. RN keeps taking losses but the Kreigsmarine is now shot and i have subs in the baltic. Rallying everything I can to push into northern germany.

Greece is a stalemate but, if Italy surrenders (25% morale now) it will be another front for germany to manage.

I am basically able to ignore Japan now so this will be a good test of my ability to redeploy everything normally in the Pac to europe. Bloody long way though ...

_____________________________

I still remember cardboard!

(in reply to Aussiematto)
Post #: 40
RE: Axis MP Strategy Guide (Lithuanian gambit) - 9/4/2020 12:03:55 AM   
Aussiematto

 

Posts: 338
Joined: 2/13/2011
From: Australia
Status: offline
The long war grinds on as we approach the start of 1943.

Allied airpower is doing its work, unopposed, in support of the D-Day into the Netherlands. Everything is flung at the Tiger tank units threatening the invasion and, lacking air defence of any kind, the Allies are feeling more secure now. Italy teeters on the edge of collapse (16%). Indian sepoys fight their way into Catanzaro and the experienced British carrier aviation keeps up the pressure. The Allied navies rule supreme and more amphibious assaults are sure to come. Even in Greece things are looking a little better with the poor morale of the Italians and the sapped strength of Hungarians stalling their drive on Athens.

It is all very necessary, however, because Germany is building up its strength for a renewed assault on Kubyashev. The Nazis' unstoppable airpower is currently grounded but the 1939 era fighters of the VVS are no match for the brilliant Luftwaffe. Only weather keeps us safe there.

China is confident of clearing its countryside of Japanese invaders by the end of 43 and has already started to invest in new-fangled ships and places needed for the final assault into Japan which is planned for 1945.

My opponent has gambled everything on a decisive blow to Russia. I remain deeply pessimistic about the Soviet's chances, even as our scientists work feverishly on improved infantry weapons. There's no hope of better tanks, so everything is being done to boost our infantry numbers. Only the occasional destruction of overstretched and weakened Wehrmacht units brings any cheer. Part of me almost wants USSR to fall so I can see whether an Allied victory can be achieved when its Germany against the world!

_____________________________

I still remember cardboard!

(in reply to Aussiematto)
Post #: 41
RE: Axis MP Strategy Guide - 9/4/2020 3:51:05 PM   
LoneRunner

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 8/16/2020
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My experience is that Germany needs to be ready to invade Russia in April if Lithuania is annexed. That's with sharing Poland, Russia invading Finland, and Germany invading Yugoslavia (in February). Russia hits 90%+ mobilization in April and Germany can't risk waiting another month regardless of weather.

(in reply to Dazo)
Post #: 42
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