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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/28/2019 3:11:10 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Guys, give me a better choice that can be seen on all counters. I have already tried several combinations of lighter and darker Orange and Brown. Yellow and Red are already used. It also has to be seen on the German Grey, Black, Field Gray and Brown. Once you find that color let me know, I'll gladly change it.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/28/2019 3:14:07 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Oh. Well, I didn't know about all those constraints. Given
the situation I'd say that Neon Pink is just what the Doctor
ordered. I always thought Neon Pink was the color you used
to designate the transparent areas on PNG files.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/28/2019 3:27:27 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Duke - It could be my mistake, here is what I use:
37mm L/45, [TOAW III-D]
37mm L/45, [TOAW III-E]

50mm L/42, [TOAW III-F]
50mm L/42, [TOAW III-G]
50mm L/42, [TOAW III-H]

50mm L/60, [TOAW III-J]

There are only IIIE's and IIIF's in this scenario. Ok, I tried to bounce this off on Derek, but that probably isn't fair as he isn't readily available. But I do mean it when I say I really don't want to get involved in a discussion about it because there are things involved other than matching up penetration numbers to armor thickness, so I have to defer to the creator of the database, only he knows how he accounted for all factors. Stat Comparison is only one aspect. We've playtested this one a lot and haven't detected any related issue, so I don't think this should undermine your confidence in the scenario.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/28/2019 4:47:06 AM   
mussey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Guys, give me a better choice that can be seen on all counters. I have already tried several combinations of lighter and darker Orange and Brown. Yellow and Red are already used. It also has to be seen on the German Grey, Black, Field Gray and Brown. Once you find that color let me know, I'll gladly change it.


I understand exactly. Once the better color combinations get used up, its difficult to find a good match. Color contrast, historical colors, point of view, and design considerations are hard to balance.

Keep up the good work.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/28/2019 5:46:42 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Guys, give me a better choice that can be seen on all counters. I have already tried several combinations of lighter and darker Orange and Brown. Yellow and Red are already used. It also has to be seen on the German Grey, Black, Field Gray and Brown. Once you find that color let me know, I'll gladly change it.


How about a white or very light grey strip? Might work if all the numbers are dark colors.

Cheers

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/28/2019 1:09:26 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Light Grey isn't good because many German units are Grey. Here is White:




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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/28/2019 6:21:41 PM   
cathar1244

 

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Mmm, lots of constraints ... including the size of the font used for the numbers. If they didn't exceed the boundary of the strip, the white look would not be bad. But the numbers are harder to interpret when they spill into the counter background at the same time.

Cheers

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/28/2019 6:27:11 PM   
BigDuke66


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Regarding the color, if neon pink worked then stay with it. The color is there to get your attention and that seems to work, not sure why one wants something more "appropriate".


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Duke - It could be my mistake, here is what I use:
37mm L/45, [TOAW III-D]
37mm L/45, [TOAW III-E]

50mm L/42, [TOAW III-F]
50mm L/42, [TOAW III-G]
50mm L/42, [TOAW III-H]

50mm L/60, [TOAW III-J]


The problem is simple that the PzIII is a mess regarding its armament, usually you would expect German equipment to be more orderly designated but that did not happen with the PzIII. The upgrade from a 3,7cm to a short 5cm and then a long 5cm did not go along the versions but it simply happened at a point in time in the production cycle of these many versions.
F production only received the short 5cm in the last 25% of its production while the G(that ran for some time parallel to the F) received it in the last 66% of its production. So there are F & G versions with the short 3,7 and that was the case at the start of Barbarossa. "Panzer Divisions - The Eastern Front 1941-43" by Pier Paolo Battistelli give some numbers and for the 22.06.1941 there were 259 PzIII with a 3,7 in the panzer divisions. 259 is more than the production run from the A to E version so it's clear that even a year after the Battle for France there seem to be F/G with the short 3,7cm gun.
That mess went on with the long 5cm but that isn't my scope here. I just note that the J version was produces since March 1941 but the long 5cm was not introduced before December 1941, so you will have short and long 5cm J versions at a certain point in time.

Hopefully Derek replies but if he wasn't around for 4 years I think that is unlikely.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/29/2019 3:23:22 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

the numbers are harder to interpret

Drat, my fault. The white was running into the bottom of the icon, so I clipped it. I can't win.

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Post #: 39
RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/29/2019 3:31:02 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

did not go along the versions but it simply happened at a point in time in the production cycle

But to me none of that matters to scenario design as long as we follow some guideline, which is why I arranged them the way I did [for my benefit]. Of course, nobody knows that but me [and now you], but when I put together the TOE's I know what I am doing, or at least I think I know what I am doing. As long as the scenario plays out within expectations, it should all be good.

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Post #: 40
RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/29/2019 3:58:36 AM   
BigDuke66


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Expectations are likely met because I just saw that no artillery piece has any AT capability, so if PzI, II & III fill this gap with a better tank vs tank performance the end result surely does not differ in a way that one even thinks about adjustments, but the way to reach the end result matters even more in my opinion and adjustment can lead to different paths while not necessary leading to different results.

That is just like the Polish campaign I'm playing, too many German planes but a bunch German corps artillery missing, too many movement points for Germans but also a Polish force in too good shape(no sign of still mobilizing).
None of it will lead to a different result of the campaign but I already see now on turn 5 that things play out different and so adjustments should be made to meet to overall course of the campaign.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/29/2019 2:21:08 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

no artillery piece has any AT capability

If I remember correctly, artillery with AT of zero will use 1/2 of its AP as an AT value. So like we were both just saying, we probably can't know everything, but we can do what we think is right during design then see how it plays out and make adjustments as necessary.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/30/2019 10:27:19 AM   
BigDuke66


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Can something be done about the SS units designation? It isn't depicted correctly, SS shown as boxes.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/30/2019 2:38:35 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

SS shown as boxes

Well, when this change occurred without warning, I rebelled and refused to hide history. I was hoping that saner minds would return the SS runes that many had used in their scenarios over many years with no negative effects. But alas, TOAW IV is no area for sane minds! So ok, now I will conform and will soon post the revisionist version of this scenario. After all, my cooperation is needed to ensure peace and stability on Earth.

By the way, I am currently working on importing this Eqp Database into D21. It's a lot of work, has no effect on the scenario, and doesn't pay anything, but it is more historically accurate.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/30/2019 5:06:39 PM   
BigDuke66


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THanks.

Before you drop a new version here give me some days to check the German Air OOB, there are some nasty little typos under Niehorster that are found in the scenario too. Nothing serious but it would clean the OOB of some things that otherwise just raise a lot questions.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 3/30/2019 8:01:31 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Might have also used Lexikon der Wehrmacht and ww2.dk for the LW, although ww2.dk isn't in the source list.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 4/8/2019 1:32:09 AM   
BigDuke66


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Finally done with it. To give a clear OOB I just made a corrected OOB with some notes as spreadsheet file and a text file with all the corrections to Niehorster's 10th May German Air OOB just in case something is not clear on the spreadheet. I packed them as ZIP and attached it, post if one has problems downloading it.
I added the staff planes on the spreadsheet for the Geschwader Stab just for completeness, that is in no way a recommendation to depict them as the Gruppen are usually already over there authorized strength.

Some comments:
- I suggest to depict formations only as a single Geschwader and each Gruppe in it as single counter. Currently counters depict sometimes multiple groups and several of these counters make a formation, this can lead to a lot of planes dropping out if such a formation goes into reorg. A Geschwader usually had not more than 4 groups under it, often less, it would lead to much less planes taken out of the hand of the player if such a formation goes into reorg. Besides this it would give flexibility by allowing to add single groups to ground combat and not whole counters of varying sizes, especially the few Stuka groups could benefit from it. The OOB would also be unmistakable, currently a lot questions come up, for example the players sees JG 27 and it's so large that it has to be the complete Geschwader but further down there is II./JG 27, as this can't be one thinks the OOB is wrong although it is not the case. I see no reason why air units should be depicted differently to ground units. A division is a formation that is represented by counters depicting the elements of the division. Just the same way should it be for Geschwader that should be formations and be represented by counters depicting the elements(Gruppen) of the Geschwader.
- 9. Fliegerdivision should be removed. It's made out of a bomber group and some recon units. The bomber group was to conduct mining operations and to fight against sea targets, as no mining is possible and no sea targets in the scenario and as recon is not depicted in the game the unit seems to have no job and the player would surely use it in ground attack operations, what shouldn't be possible. So there is no need to depict the 9. Fliegerdivision at all.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 4/12/2019 4:16:51 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Thanks very much for spending the time to investigate

quote:

I suggest to depict formations only as a single Geschwader and each Gruppe in it as single counter. Currently counters depict sometimes multiple groups and several of these counters make a formation, this can lead to a lot of planes dropping out if such a formation goes into reorg.

I agree and originally it was set up that way. The WAllies don't have many air units and the LW will always concentrate on specific areas, so that means that with 80+ air units it gets to be aggravating, even for a monster scenario. So currently we have 40+ air units requiring less management. And, by the time any formations would go into reorg they were usually already in the Orange. I don't play this one with the LW in the Orange and even though I like leaving the player with choices, I thought this was an ok design choice [larger formations].

quote:

9. Fliegerdivision should be removed.

It is in Garrison so the player can't use it, but it is in 'S' mode which isn't correct so thanks for mentioning it. In this case the design decision is 'If an inappropriate unit doesn't affect anything, then it can be included. This avoids a player wondering where it is'.

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Post #: 48
RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 4/13/2019 2:54:53 AM   
BigDuke66


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Can you give some more details for the evacuation of the BEF?
I didn't take a look at the events but I guess the BEF is simply removed? And that under all circumstances?
If that is so I wonder if a small housrule should be set to let only those units of the BEF escape that can trace a LOC to a harbor, other BEF units should be disbanded manually before using the TO to evacuate the BEF.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Thanks very much for spending the time to investigate


My pleasure.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 4/13/2019 3:56:57 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

Can you give some more details for the evacuation of the BEF?

Rules for the withdrawal of the B.E.F. are contained in the txt files for both scenarios, so check those out if you hadn't.

We had a lot of discussion on this matter and I am confident that all possibilities were touched on, and the consensus was that there was no perfect way to portray it. Everybody also has their own favorite opinion as to how it should be handled [mine was to have no withdrawal and to let the BEF get cutoff and wiped out]. The current rules are considered to be a fair and reasonable way of handling things, and I don't really see any possibility of changing it [so hopefully you don't spend time mulling it all over].

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 4/13/2019 5:32:03 PM   
BigDuke66


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Text file doesn't give much and just mentions that the Allied player is in control of the withdrawal of the BEF. There is also note of a 2nd BEF but I'm pretty clueless what that is about, why a 2nd BEF?

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 4/13/2019 6:01:11 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Nach Frankreich(t)
The BEF:
Due to the complexities involved in withdrawing the BEF according to the historical circumstances that led to its withdrawal, the BEF is currently tied to the surrender of Belgium. Each turn after Belgium surrenders there is a 50% chance the BEF will withdraw. Historically, the BEF appeared commited to the continent even as the situation deteriorated. But once the Belgian Army was no longer available to protect the BEF's left flank, they had no choice but to leave. Therefore, this withrawal event seems reasonable.

Nach Frankreich
The Allied player is in control of the surrenders of Holland and Belgium, and of the withdrawal of the BEF. Most units of Holland, Belgium and the BEF that are eliminated will award the German player 2 Victory Points. Basically this includes all regiments, brigades, artillery, and HQ units. Therefore, the player must determine at what point it becomes too dangerous to keep each of these forces in play. Theater Options will be available from the start of the scenario to surrender Holland and Belgium, and to withdraw the BEF. The Allied Supply Point at Brussels is removed when Belgium surrenders. The Den Haag supply point is removed if Holland surrenders.

I don't see how it isn't crystal, especially with the red highlights, lol.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 4/13/2019 6:01:38 PM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Text file doesn't give much and just mentions that the Allied player is in control of the withdrawal of the BEF. There is also note of a 2nd BEF but I'm pretty clueless what that is about, why a 2nd BEF?


Re: 2nd BEF, some Allied units landed at Brest near the end of the campaign. They withdrew shortly thereafter. 1st Canadian Division elements were part of this force.

Cheers

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Post #: 53
RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 4/13/2019 6:05:55 PM   
sPzAbt653


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For the Second BEF, see After Dunkirk here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Expeditionary_Force_(World_War_II)#Second_BEF

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Post #: 54
RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 4/15/2019 7:35:03 PM   
BigDuke66


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Next points:

- German permanent fixed divisions
-- 211. Infanterie-Division should be free from the start as it already acted as 4th Army reserve from 11th May on:
"Am 11. Mai 1940 wurde die Division Reserve der 4. Armee und marschierte mit dieser in Frankreich ein. Dabei nahm sie an den Kämpfen um die südlichen Forts dder Festung Namur teil. Anschließend marschierte die Division bis in den Raum Maubeuge. Am 4. Juni 1940 wurde die Division dann Heeresgruppenreserve der Heeresgruppe A. Während der zweiten Phase des Westfeldzuges, der "Schlacht um Frankreich", überquerte die Division den Chemin des Dames und drang dann bis in den Raum Reims und Auxerre vor." Lexikon der Wehrmacht
-- 297. Infanterie-Division could/should be removed as it was forming near Bruck South-East of Vienna. It did not show up as available for the OKH before June 1940. At best this division maybe available via Theater Option at the end of June for some VPs.
-- 197. Infanterie-Division should be released at least by 17th June as it took part in the campaign:
"Ab dem 17. Juni 1940 stieß die Division über die Seille und über den Rjein-Marne-Kanal vor und brach südwestlich von Saarbrücken bei Chateau-Salin in die Maginotlinie ein. Anschließend nahm die Division an der Schlacht an der Mosel und in den Vogesen teil." Lexikon der Wehrmacht
Currently it releases on turn 88 what is after the end of the scenario.


- German limited supplies
While the idea is good, sources show that Germany had even in the most critical sector of fuel enough for 4 months of unrestricted warfare(Das Deutsche Reich und der 2. Weltkrieg Band 2). Ammunition was not critical and consumption stayed behind projections for the Western campaign so that production was more than enough.
From the moral perspective it was of course hoped to be a short campaign but it was going against France and most expected a long campaign. Having France not conquered by 1st July wouldn't not be any problem.
Overall any shortening of German supply level because of the assumption of too small resources & stocks is not sustainable. Just like giving Allies 5VP per day if scenario if running past to 1st July and further.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 4/16/2019 2:21:11 AM >


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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 4/15/2019 9:26:56 PM   
sPzAbt653


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For the unit histories, when sources conflicted we went with what seemed like a reasonable solution.

The end of scenario/Victory Conditions needed something, so those Supply and Victory Point changes were added.

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Post #: 56
RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 4/16/2019 2:46:24 AM   
BigDuke66


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Not much of a conflict egardign the divisions. I got map material drawn after official German records and if that is not enough you can look at some original records yourself here:
http://wwii-photos-maps.com/lagewest/1940/May/index.html

- You see that the 211 ID was near Cologne on 10th May and that it was at the German-Belgian border near Monschau early on the 13th May, it acted right from the start as reserve of 4th Army. It seems that it never was an active front unit but well that is what a reserve is there for.
- 297 ID does show up on the maps but as said only as OKH reserve that the player should not simply access like an army or army group reserve because he commands only the Heeresgruppe A, B & C.
- Last not least 197 ID crosses into France on the 17th June as part of German 1st Army.

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RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 4/16/2019 4:42:19 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Well, Reserve Units historically they all were and Reserve Units they are in the scenario. If we give the German player free rule of them, then the Allied Player has a legit complaint for a scenario where enough things are already stacked against them.

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Post #: 58
RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 5/30/2019 8:05:32 PM   
BigDuke66


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Minor stuff:
The color schema of the German 208ID, 46ID & 1.KD seem to be off, they match that of the Luftwaffe and not any of the German armies.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 5/31/2019 4:26:05 AM >


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Post #: 59
RE: Nach Frankreich 1940 - 5/31/2019 7:19:53 AM   
sPzAbt653


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It's the color scheme of the Ninth Army. That was a Reserve Formation, so the balance of the units arrive as the scenario progresses.




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