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USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses...

 
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USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 3/24/2019 10:59:13 PM   
juv95hrn

 

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So let me get this straight (sorry if it hasd been asked before).

Shock and Guard Armies give a +1 admin to normal units but not to Guard units?

Guard units do never get this bonus or any other bonus due to being attached to special armies?
Post #: 1
RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 3/26/2019 6:33:53 AM   
56ajax


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From: Carnegie, Australia
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I think you are correct.

The benefits of Shock and Guard Armies is higher command capacity plus admin +1 for some units as per above.

The benefit of Guard units is bigger TOE, higher morale (and replacement come with more experience?)

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne

(in reply to juv95hrn)
Post #: 2
RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 3/26/2019 12:00:31 PM   
juv95hrn

 

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I think there should be some inherent incentive to place Guard Divisions into Guard Armies, instead of the opposite. Strange dev. decision if you ask me.

(in reply to 56ajax)
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RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 3/26/2019 9:23:56 PM   
MattFL

 

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Guards get plus +10 to national morale. Non-Elite get +1 to admin when attached to Shock Army. I suppose this reflects them performing a bit better than normal when part of an elite Army.

However, the rules also state:

"7.6 - Elite units and Soviet units directly attached to a Shock Army headquarters unit receive a bonus over the current national morale
(9.1.4). Axis elite units are pre-designated, while Soviet elite units must meet certain conditions to be designated Guard units and
receive the national morale bonus."


It's quite ambiguous because 9.1.4 is totally silent on national morale bonuses for being attached to a shock army. So 7.6 implies a morale bonus for being attached to a Shock Army and 9.1.4 lists morale bonuses for unit types and says that they are cumulative. But it never spells out the morale bonus in question for being part of a shock army as per 7.6.....


Clear as mud.



(in reply to juv95hrn)
Post #: 4
RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 3/28/2019 4:12:23 AM   
M60A3TTS


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The extra command capacity of a guards or shock army means when attacking from two hexes with corps units, only one would not be of that type army. With a regular army, two corps units would not be of that army and would suffer the penalty for mixed units. If you are talking guards corps, the CV advantage by not being penalized x2 is small, but not insignificant. Hope that makes sense.

And no, there is no morale bonus for being in a shock army that I have seen.

(in reply to MattFL)
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RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 3/28/2019 9:47:51 AM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MattFL

Guards get plus +10 to national morale. Non-Elite get +1 to admin when attached to Shock Army. I suppose this reflects them performing a bit better than normal when part of an elite Army.

However, the rules also state:

"7.6 - Elite units and Soviet units directly attached to a Shock Army headquarters unit receive a bonus over the current national morale
(9.1.4). Axis elite units are pre-designated, while Soviet elite units must meet certain conditions to be designated Guard units and
receive the national morale bonus."


It's quite ambiguous because 9.1.4 is totally silent on national morale bonuses for being attached to a shock army. So 7.6 implies a morale bonus for being attached to a Shock Army and 9.1.4 lists morale bonuses for unit types and says that they are cumulative. But it never spells out the morale bonus in question for being part of a shock army as per 7.6.....


Clear as mud.





The rules were changed. See the new manual: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4529371

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RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 3/28/2019 10:35:50 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Never trust the old manuals

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RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 3/28/2019 4:13:22 PM   
MattFL

 

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My references are from the updated manual......

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RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 3/28/2019 4:35:13 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

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I imagine there is some context being missed perhaps Matt I imagine Chris is very thorough

All the writing for mechanics is the exact same whether from day 1 manual to newest updated version etc
What's important to take note of is the coloured addendums underneath each mechanic as they show all the cumilative changes over the times
So somewhere underneath "Guards get plus +10 to national morale. Non-Elite get +1 to admin when attached to Shock Army. I suppose this reflects them performing a bit better than normal when part of an elite Army."
You will then see a "This no longer happens to guard divisions" in red or something similar

I could be utterly wrong of course but that would be my guess at what is happening?


(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 9
RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 3/28/2019 5:14:21 PM   
MattFL

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

I imagine there is some context being missed perhaps Matt I imagine Chris is very thorough

All the writing for mechanics is the exact same whether from day 1 manual to newest updated version etc
What's important to take note of is the coloured addendums underneath each mechanic as they show all the cumilative changes over the times
So somewhere underneath "Guards get plus +10 to national morale. Non-Elite get +1 to admin when attached to Shock Army. I suppose this reflects them performing a bit better than normal when part of an elite Army."
You will then see a "This no longer happens to guard divisions" in red or something similar

I could be utterly wrong of course but that would be my guess at what is happening?




Nope, no context missing. Guards get plus +10 to National morale is under the Morale section (9.1.4) and the +1 to Admin for non-guard units attached to shock army is written twice in section 7.6, once under 7.6.1 and again under 7.6.3 with the added addendum that Guards don’t get this benefit.

I think the only edit to the rules to make it clear that is necessary is to just delete the very first sentence of 7.6 which is the sentence i pointed out. It doesn’t serve any purpose it seems other than to cause the confusion. And not a slight at Chris of course, it’s a 300 page manual, there are bound to be things that are missed or inadvertently left in. I do wish though that the changes from the original text had been left highlighted to point out exactly what had been changed or deleted for easier reference for those of us who know the old manual. You kind of have to read the whole thing to find and digest the changes. At least I do after so many years away and so many version changes. Not complaining mind you!

Riding shotgun in a car on the six hour drive to LA, so nothing better to do right now than read the rules more.

< Message edited by MattFL -- 3/28/2019 5:20:16 PM >

(in reply to SparkleyTits)
Post #: 10
RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 3/28/2019 5:21:54 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

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I just read this trying to figure out what was going wrong for the forth time until it sunk in and I got your point of "Causes confusion"

I see now, Doh

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 11
RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 3/29/2019 8:34:07 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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I've made clarifications to the manual hope it helps. It now reads.

7.6. Elite Units
Elite units receive a bonus over their national morale (9.1.4). Axis elite units are pre-designated, while Soviet elite units must meet
certain conditions in order to be designated Guard units (7.6.1).
Units attached to Soviet elite HQs (Guards and Shock Armies) may also receive a +1 bonus to their leader's admin rating (7.6.2).

7.6.1 Creation of Soviet Guards Ground Units
Under certain conditions, Soviet combat, support, and corps and army (but not airborne or air) HQ units may become guards units.
Soviet Rocket and Heavy Tank units get automatic Guards status. Soviet Tank and Mechanized Corps that are broken down into
brigades cannot gain guards status until rebuilt.
When a unit achieves guards status its TOE will change to the appropriate Guards TOE, its name and number will change to reflect its
guards status and it will immediately gets +10 increase to the units national moral.

7.6.3. Soviet Guards and Shock Army Admin Bonus
Soviet non-guards units directly attached to a Guards Army HQ get a +1 to their leader's admin rating provided the headquarters unit is
within its command limits.
Soviet non-guards units directly attached to a Shock Army HQ get a +1 to their leader's admin rating.
These admin bonuses exist only as long as the unit is directly attached to the headquarters unit and they never apply to guards units.

(in reply to SparkleyTits)
Post #: 12
RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 3/29/2019 3:58:30 PM   
MattFL

 

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Great Chris, much more clear now. You the man for doing this.

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 13
RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 4/8/2019 3:56:45 PM   
juv95hrn

 

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Should be:

7.6. Elite Units
Elite units receive a bonus over their national morale (9.1.4). Axis elite units are pre-designated, while Soviet elite units must meet
certain conditions in order to be designated Guard units (7.6.1).
NON-ELITE Units attached to Soviet elite HQs (Guards and Shock Armies) WILL also receive a +1 bonus to their leader's admin rating (7.6.2).


I think its counter intuitive that guard divisions arent supposed to be attached to guard armies. But maybe there is a historical precedence for this? My guess would be the other way around. I´m not saying Guards need to be better, just saying I want my red divs with my red HQs, and not be "punished" for it.

Not to mention that you ought to transfer all your guard divisions out of these elite armies since they "lose" army benefits when gaining more experience. I guess I am no fan of this design choice really.

< Message edited by juv95hrn -- 4/8/2019 3:57:12 PM >

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 14
RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 4/9/2019 8:52:18 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1917
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From: Carnegie, Australia
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I suppose it depends on how many Guards units you have. If you play without +1 bonus you get bugger all.

Yes it is counter intuitive. The choice is the best fighting army vs army with the biggest movement, potentially.

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne

(in reply to juv95hrn)
Post #: 15
RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 4/10/2019 4:29:47 PM   
juv95hrn

 

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No +1 bonus gives another bonus to Guards creation, making it fewer attacks neccessary to trigger a check I believe.

The only reason to put Guards into Shock/Guard armies, would be that they keep the 21 point command space afaik. I´d like to see an incentive to create all guards armies, instead of the opposite. Guards fight the same in all sorts of armies, so it wouldn´t be the "best".

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 16
RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 4/11/2019 8:04:33 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1917
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline
Best in the sense that they have a larger TOE, and in theory have a larger combat value and you can get more of them in a Shock army...

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne

(in reply to juv95hrn)
Post #: 17
RE: USSR Shock and Guard Army bonuses... - 12/30/2020 12:56:22 PM   
case23

 

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Holy thread necromancy, Batman!

So the Shock Army leader gets +1 to his admin bonus only when the check does NOT involve a guard unit in his HQ? Admin checks that DO involve a guards unit in the Shock Army DON'T get a +1? Seems an odd implementation over just giving the leader of the Shock Army a straight +1 to his Admin leader checks.

I'm picturing the Leader priding himself on running a tight, efficient ship, with all the paperwork expedited and rapid. Unless it's a unit with high morale. In that case, screw 'em; those guys don't deserve efficient paperwork!

Sarcasm aside, do I have the rule right?

I'm kinda hoping the "doesn't apply to a guard unit" language is left over from when Shock Armies got a morale bonus, which wasn't intended to stack with other morale boni.

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 18
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