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Entrenchments....seriously?

 
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Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 4:52:24 AM   
MattFL

 

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So, I was messing about with HLYA's Pskov defense seeing if I could recreate it and I was running some tests.


I ran through it completely the first time and didn't get anything like the results he gets. So I ran another test independently seeing what it would take to build a fort.


I put three units that were close by in the hex as shown in the graphic. It was human vs human and nothing else for either side moved. I attached each to the Mech Corp, attached to Northern Front. Blah blah...the MOT Unit which starts in the hext next to them had a fort start Soviet Turn 4. The other 3 units next to them with 5 times the construction value and under the exact same chain of command still don't have a Fort 1 at the start of Turn 5?!!?! What the screw.....




Either i am missing something or the game is totally screwed. How can it take this many turns to build a fort 1 (or rather, still NOT have a fort)?


And just for clarity, i do understand that perhaps zhukov should have been assigned to an army and other changes. But it shouldn't matter. 3 Units in a clear hex for 4 straight turns with an ever increasing construction value (started on t1 as like 39 or something) with countless conscruction brigades in range at max toe and they can't build a level 1 fort when the lowly MOT unit next to them does..... Makes absolutely not sense.





< Message edited by MattFL -- 3/21/2019 4:53:00 AM >
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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 5:39:16 AM   
56ajax


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Doesn't the enemy have to be close for fort building?

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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 5:45:04 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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I'm struggling to piece together all the data you have put forward here bud so I apologise if I have misread/misunderstood and end up not answering your question very well

With the SU, because the divisions are under a corp and the SU are under northern front HQ, meaning they have to go up the chain of command to coordinate together you will have a diminished chance of them activating so I imagine in your circumstance only a couple or so would likely end up activating

As an added tidbit for the uses of fort construction certain types of divisions have multiplied values of construction when building level 1 forts under certain circumstances
For example an infantry, cav and mountain divisions building in your own ZOC that has not been recently flipped, without any enemies in an adjacent hex, in light terrain will have 3 times the construction value when building a level 1 fort, meaning if you have a division with 20 construction value you can get a level 1 fort in 1 turn
Tanks in the same circumstance get twice the labeled construction from what I can tell

< Message edited by SparkleyTits -- 3/21/2019 5:47:20 AM >

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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 6:30:31 AM   
MattFL

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Doesn't the enemy have to be close for fort building?


Adjacent only for a level 3 Fort (OR in Urban OR Adjacent to a FORT Unit). So that's not it clearly.

One thing that seems clear to me is that the manual is very out of date relative to the ongoing patches. The manual i'm using has a 2013 date...Is that right? Seems like the game is all voodoo nowawadays and really I'm not sure why it keeps changing. It's like a modded game now with no documentation.


< Message edited by MattFL -- 3/21/2019 6:45:14 AM >

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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 6:43:21 AM   
MattFL

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

I'm struggling to piece together all the data you have put forward here bud so I apologise if I have misread/misunderstood and end up not answering your question very well

With the SU, because the divisions are under a corp and the SU are under northern front HQ, meaning they have to go up the chain of command to coordinate together you will have a diminished chance of them activating so I imagine in your circumstance only a couple or so would likely end up activating

As an added tidbit for the uses of fort construction certain types of divisions have multiplied values of construction when building level 1 forts under certain circumstances
For example an infantry, cav and mountain divisions building in your own ZOC that has not been recently flipped, without any enemies in an adjacent hex, in light terrain will have 3 times the construction value when building a level 1 fort, meaning if you have a division with 20 construction value you can get a level 1 fort in 1 turn
Tanks in the same circumstance get twice the labeled construction from what I can tell


It's really quite simple and perhaps I've made it more confusing than it needs to be. I started the game human on human and on GHC Turn 1 I did nothing other than hit end turn. On SHC 1, I moved like a grand total of 4 units. I put the HQ in range, I put the 3 units I've noted in a clear hex, and I built a ton of extra construction units in the Front HQ. So just put a few units into a clear hex, made sure that the Command chain was good, built some SU's, and hit End Turn. Then I did nothing other than hitting end turn for both sides until I wrote this post at Turn 5 start.

It's inconceivable to me that 50+ total Constr Value (2 Inf Divisions and 1 Tank Div) can't build a Fort Lvl 1 with all of that construction support in that amount of time. As you point out, without any Fort level they should be getting BONUSES to build the Fort...but nothing. All of them MAX TOE including support. The MOT Unit next to them built to Fort 1. It's crazy man.

I just ran through another turn (had company over which pulled me away) and FINALLY when i opened the start of SHC Turn 6, there was a level 1 Fort.

Don't take my word for it, put some units in that same hex (1 hex SE of Pskov) and see for yourself....

Side Note: Like i said, i've basically done nothing other than hit "end turn" for both sides since intially moving those three units on Turn 1 and the GHC have suffered 81554 Casualties including 16k+ killed and over a quarter million for the SHC including 25k killed and not a shot has been fired. ;-)




< Message edited by MattFL -- 3/21/2019 6:47:11 AM >

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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 6:54:09 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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To build a level 1 fort in a hex there has to be an enemy within 20 or 25 of said hex
If memory serves right it was highered in one of the more recent patches from 20 hexes to 25 hexes but it could well be the other away around the the update reduced it from 25 to 20

If Axis has not moved from turn 1 starting positions you will be out of enemy range to build any forts at Pskov
Try moving an axis unit closer and test if Ajaxs suggestion was correct

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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 7:00:41 AM   
MattFL

 

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If that is the case how did it finally have a fort on the start of Turn 6 and how did the units 2 hexes west of PSKOV end up with a lvl 1 fort even before this stack even though they have way lower construction value, aren't in command range, are far more than 25 hexes from the enemy, etc. etc. (technically all of those hexes are within 25 of the Fins)


And just to clarify, I ran this test twice with very similar results.


Even more bizzare is if you look at my screen shot above - the lvl 2 forts west of them degraded to lvl 1 before those three units could build a lvl 1 fort. Huh?

< Message edited by MattFL -- 3/21/2019 7:05:25 AM >

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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 7:18:41 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Well the hex just W of Pskov starts the game with a level 2 fort so that one is fine at least
Same with a fort that has degraded if I am understanding you correctly, it starts the game with a level 2 fort

Pehaps the range is above 25 I am not remembering correctly, in that case you could just be cusping the build range meaning 2 of your hexes are building but the other hex with a 3 stack is not?

Try moving Axis units closer and seeing if it solves the problem
If not and you would like to, send me the save file and I will see if I can have a look at the problem myself bud

One added tidbit just incase you do not know already
Range for the 1st level of command does not matter, the parent HQ could be in the urals and they would still build at maximum construction value if the division is mechanically able to build

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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 7:19:52 AM   
MattFL

 

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I just ran another test doing nothing at all but hitting end Turn and the front lines are all level 3 forts by the end of turn 2.....going to run another test where on GHC T1 I'll break the front lines and put a Panzer Division as close to PSKOV as I can get it and see if that changes anything...……….

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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 7:23:49 AM   
MattFL

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Well the hex just W of Pskov starts the game with a level 2 fort so that one is fine at least
Same with a fort that has degraded if I am understanding you correctly, it starts the game with a level 2 fort

Pehaps the range is above 25 I am not remembering correctly, in that case you could just be cusping the build range meaning 2 of your hexes are building but the other hex with a 3 stack is not?

Try moving Axis units closer and seeing if it solves the problem
If not and you would like to, send me the save file and I will see if I can have a look at the problem myself bud

One added tidbit just incase you do not know already
Range for the 1st level of command does not matter, the parent HQ could be in the urals and they would still build at maximum construction value if the division is mechanically able to build


I said unit TWO hexes west of Pskov got a fort. I know the ones next to it have level 2.........

The degrading ones i pointed out were level 2 to start and went to level 1 before 3 divisions could build a level 1.

Yes, i've read your (or EvK?) other posts about Command bonuses in combat being irrelevant as to range to HQ (the immediate level above) and it only matters for the upper levels. More voodoo.....

Running my new test now.....


< Message edited by MattFL -- 3/21/2019 7:38:31 AM >

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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 7:28:15 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MattFL

Running my new test now.....



Good luck comrade!

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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 7:34:21 AM   
MattFL

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits


quote:

ORIGINAL: MattFL

Running my new test now.....



Good luck comrade!


Totally strange.... This time i did way less to set all of it up, all i did was move a GHC PZ Div across the Daugava and stuck 3 soviets units in the same hex and sure enough, Fort Level 1 in place at the start of SHC Turn 2.


Seriously, is there an updated manual somewhere? Is my 2013 manual the last update of the full manual? Where does it say at what range that the enemy effects fort building and by what %?



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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 7:41:25 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Chris21wen has an incredibly amazing updated manual he is tirelessly working on
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4529371

I would definitely recommend getting that, just try to shoot him a thank you for all his hard work if you get the chance!

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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 8:08:37 AM   
MattFL

 

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Just downloaded it...….thanks ST, (and Chris of course!). Need to read this one...………

Though from my 20 second skimming, there's still voodoo going on to some level as the fort certainly built way faster when I moved the GHC unit closer, it did still build a fort after 5 full turns when not within 25 hexes of an unfrozen unit. Just sayin'...


*EDIT* Disregard this, it must have been that the Finns unfroze thus satisfying the 25 hex thing.

< Message edited by MattFL -- 3/21/2019 8:16:33 AM >

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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 8:12:20 AM   
MattFL

 

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One Final note and then consider this closed while I play around - I ran many tests and interestingly enough, in the last one the 3rd Tank Division (just north of PSKOV) had a CV of 8. I don't think I've ever seen an 8 CV Tank Division in the North at start before...

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RE: Entrenchments....seriously? - 3/21/2019 8:16:23 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Ah well that is good to know Matt, thanks for the tip!
I will have a look at it myself but perhaps the rate is just drastically reduced or limited to some degree if you are correct?

The great thing about this game, I've yet to find a time when I don't learn more about it

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