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RE: Der Ivan kommt!

 
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RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/15/2019 7:52:06 AM   
Dinglir


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Turn eleven.

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Post #: 91
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/15/2019 10:52:06 AM   
Telemecus


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MG battalions were found to be very good anti-dotes to soaking attacks although not so important with the nerfs to that tactic now. Also in the battle resolution as it goes through different ranges, the MG battalions cover the ranges that tanks are not very good at. So on the basis of unlike SUs are better than like SUs I would say MG battalions are quite a good choice for Panzer divisions. I am assuming on this turn the Axis will still have a vehicle surplus, so their motorisation will not affect movement points now?

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< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/15/2019 11:01:57 AM >

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Post #: 92
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/15/2019 1:47:45 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus



MG battalions were found to be very good anti-dotes to soaking attacks although not so important with the nerfs to that tactic now. Also in the battle resolution as it goes through different ranges, the MG battalions cover the ranges that tanks are not very good at. So on the basis of unlike SUs are better than like SUs I would say MG battalions are quite a good choice for Panzer divisions. I am assuming on this turn the Axis will still have a vehicle surplus, so their motorisation will not affect movement points now?


I think it might be worth providing a background here for the new reader.

The typical ol' AH or SPI boardgame consisted of matching up combat values and achieving a 3:1 ratio for assured victory. Other odds ratios yielded various results from total elimination of the attacker to various forms of exchange ratios I might propose that many players who have never seen one of the old wargames still might think that WITE works like that .. it is more complicated.

Rather than consult a single combat results table, each element applies their multiple factors vs an element of the opposite side (no friendly fire here ) . It is a Rochambeau like match up of armor, infantry, and artillery made complex by that certain artillery is good against both armor and infantry, and well lots of combination that have advantages and disadvantages. For example, it has been discussed that 20mm quad flak is quite effective against squads of all types but obviously vulnerable to lot's of devices. The match up happens in ranges with the longest range attacking device starting first and the ranges descending with devices doing their thing against a random squad or device.

So that brings about thinking in terms of a Pareto of enemy devices and squads. For example:

A 42a Guards division consist of:

337 Rifle squads
18 engineer squads
54 SMG squads
228 Infantry AT
112 MG
85 Light Mortars
85 Mortars
30 AT Guns
16 Medium Art devices
9 AAMG
6 Light flak
24 Light art
18 heavy mortors
12 INf Guns
233 Support Squads

10,680 men 100% TO&E.

A quick check shows that 50mm guns mounted on tanks with slow rates of fire are not as effective as say a 20mm flak device or a MG squad vs a soft target. I want high rates of fire ... and have a probability of disrupting/damaging/destroying more Soviets than Germans getting disrupted. There are lot's of choices here and variables. Assuming clear terrain and no forts maximum ROF is great. The attacker gets no terrain bonus and thus Soviets attacking Panzer divisions using infantry Corps might be best matched with MG SU's as you will disrupt the maximum number of Soviet squads at the range where the Soviet infantry are going to do their worse to your precious tanks.

The German attack vs. defensive terrain alters the calculus considerably. Here 105's mounted on Pz I's might be the ticket as your units might not make it to MG range. The goal is to disrupt as many of the defensive devices as quickly and efficiency as possible. AS the real damage is done operationally using pockets and not tactically damaging units that end up damaging your Panzers ...

Now a 42b Soviet Tank Corps has 162 tanks and 398 soft devices and squads. Given 100% TO&E that makes it 40% probable that your attacking device is going to engage a harder target. That changes the German SU needs. For example, I attach better AT and tank hunter units in this case. Given the above odds you are going to be just under 50% likely to engage a harder target than an infantry squad.

This assumes a straight up calculation. But the Soviets have reserve activation and can change the calculus tremendously. The Soviet's can bring 1000's of tubes to a fight as well as armor units etc. So a controversy of sorts trying to understand the best mix of SU's.

The attack using weaker units first to absorb ammo, supplies, and cause fatigue has been nerfed. But the Soviet player at one time could bring weak units into battle cause the above and then have an attack with strong units to push the armor around. There is a +1 MP penalty for every attack from a hex after the first attack and I think and extra die roll or CV comparison between firepower rounds. I am seeing much less action in these low odds attacks where the attacker gets off the long range shots defense fires back and after the first round the "soak off" attack stops with little casualties. The exception is if the defense passes a counterattack die roll and then the roles reverse.A lot more engagements occur at higher losses.

Hopefully that clarifies the conversation ..

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Post #: 93
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/15/2019 6:58:50 PM   
Bear1888

 

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I tend to give my Panzerdivisions at least 1 SPG, 1 mot. AA and 1 pioneer battalion.

But I am in summer 43 where mobility is not that important for the Panzerdivisions anymore but high CV and the ability to counterattack.

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Post #: 94
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/15/2019 8:25:14 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bear1888

I tend to give my Panzerdivisions at least 1 SPG, 1 mot. AA and 1 pioneer battalion.

But I am in summer 43 where mobility is not that important for the Panzerdivisions anymore but high CV and the ability to counterattack.


Those Heavy Panzer Battalions will add some CV (Turn 96 you get one ... Turn 106 you get 2 .. )

< Message edited by Crackaces -- 6/15/2019 8:26:03 PM >


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Post #: 95
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/15/2019 8:32:42 PM   
Bear1888

 

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Aye. I still have them under OKH command.

Will commit them when some kind of main thrust of the red army is identified. They should do fine against those soviet T-34/76 and SU-76.

< Message edited by Bear1888 -- 6/15/2019 8:34:13 PM >

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Post #: 96
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/15/2019 11:01:27 PM   
Huw Jones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus



MG battalions were found to be very good anti-dotes to soaking attacks although not so important with the nerfs to that tactic now. Also in the battle resolution as it goes through different ranges, the MG battalions cover the ranges that tanks are not very good at. So on the basis of unlike SUs are better than like SUs I would say MG battalions are quite a good choice for Panzer divisions. I am assuming on this turn the Axis will still have a vehicle surplus, so their motorisation will not affect movement points now?


The aim has been for a panzer division to have:

1 Pioneer unit.
1 SPG unit
1 Flak battalion

But very battered SUs are sent back to OKH for refitting, so shove in whats available at the time.


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Post #: 97
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/15/2019 11:06:02 PM   
Huw Jones

 

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"However, I also notice that the Security Regiment was attached
directly to OKH, meaning a significant drop in CV on that unit. I cannot help to think, that Huw seems a little
relaxed about such details. However, I think that if you add up all the details, they do matter. In any case,
the attack was another success."

Security units are mostly OKH for me at the start and just helping fill the lines until they reach their designated City, don't want to spend admin points attaching them to nearest corp.

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Post #: 98
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/15/2019 11:10:03 PM   
Dinglir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
I am assuming on this turn the Axis will still have a vehicle surplus, so their motorisation will not affect movement points now?


I am not privy to information about the Axis vehicle pool, but I assume it is sufficient.

However, having more than 100% requirements mean that fuel depots will build up in HQ's, which in turn will mean there are more fuel to be sent forward to units. That should mean a little extra MP.




_____________________________

To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

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Post #: 99
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/15/2019 11:26:24 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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quote:

However, having more than 100% requirements mean that fuel depots will build up in HQ's, which in turn will mean there are more fuel to be sent forward to units. That should mean a little extra MP.


That is not correct. Vehicles above 100% have exactly zero effect.

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Post #: 100
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/16/2019 1:27:21 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Huw Jones
1 Pioneer unit.
1 SPG unit
1 Flak battalion
But very battered SUs are sent back to OKH for refitting, so shove in whats available at the time.


I do not necessarily agree with putting an SPG with a Panzer division as default. Definitely yes with a motor infantry as you are putting a different kind of SU to its directly assigned unit (something with a big gun to one without). With a Panzer division you are adding SUs of the same type as the parent unit. Yes it is great for making a very high CV counter - and there may be very good reasons for doing that operationally. But overall your army will be slightly less powerful. And while those MG and bike recon battalions may not be very powerful in CV, they are complementary to the Panzer divisions when it comes to battle resolution going from longest to shortest range. In short they can do more attached to a Panzer division than they can anywhere else. So I would say as default do not directly assign SPGs to Panzer divisions. And it goes without saying keep flame tank units out of any motorised formations.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/16/2019 4:26:18 PM >

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Post #: 101
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/20/2019 11:10:33 PM   
Huw Jones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Huw Jones
1 Pioneer unit.
1 SPG unit
1 Flak battalion
But very battered SUs are sent back to OKH for refitting, so shove in whats available at the time.


I do not necessarily agree with putting an SPG with a Panzer division as default. Definitely yes with a motor infantry as you are putting a different kind of SU to its directly assigned unit (something with a big gun to one without). With a Panzer division you are adding SUs of the same type as the parent unit. Yes it is great for making a very high CV counter - and there may be very good reasons for doing that operationally. But overall your army will be slightly less powerful. And while those MG and bike recon battalions may not be very powerful in CV, they are complementary to the Panzer divisions when it comes to battle resolution going from longest to shortest range. In short they can do more attached to a Panzer division than they can anywhere else. So I would say as default do not directly assign SPGs to Panzer divisions. And it goes without saying keep flame tank units out of any motorised formations.

quote:

MG and bike recon battalions


Good info on the MG and bike recon battalions, I will remember that.

As the Russians like to air attack the Panzer Divs, I like to keep an AA SU battalion attached, some just have flak companies though.

Pioneer SU for offensive or defensive reasons.

BUT my thoughts are up to blizzard, that the Panzer Divs are doing most of the fighting, so I want the highest CV possible. So will just take a slightly weaker army elsewhere as I feel that is cancelled out by stronger Panzer divs.

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Post #: 102
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/21/2019 3:19:25 PM   
Dinglir


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Turn twelwe.

As I have begun seeing writing AAR's as a boring chore rather than as an interesting part of the game, I decided at this point to stop writing them for now.

The game has moved on, and we are currently at turn 17. The Red army is at 3.9 mio men and the Germans are threatening Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh and Rostov.



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_____________________________

To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to Huw Jones)
Post #: 103
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/21/2019 4:07:12 PM   
Telemecus


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It will be sad to miss your AARs here as they have contributed much. I guess partly people are now holding fire on WitE1 games with the shadow of upcoming WitE2. So there is not as much interaction as there once was.

Perhaps even if not a comprehensive turn by turn coverage you could fill us in on interesting ideas or developments. Or the occasional situational screenshot every few turns?

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Post #: 104
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/23/2019 1:05:58 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

Turn twelwe.

As I have begun seeing writing AAR's as a boring chore rather than as an interesting part of the game, I decided at this point to stop writing them for now.

The game has moved on, and we are currently at turn 17. The Red army is at 3.9 mio men and the Germans are threatening Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh and Rostov.




Thanks for the comprehensive AAR's but totally understand your decision to stop. Where do you get the time? At times playing the game is a chore enough...

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Post #: 105
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/23/2019 1:09:49 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

It will be sad to miss your AARs here as they have contributed much. I guess partly people are now holding fire on WitE1 games with the shadow of upcoming WitE2. So there is not as much interaction as there once was.

Perhaps even if not a comprehensive turn by turn coverage you could fill us in on interesting ideas or developments. Or the occasional situational screenshot every few turns?


I think WiTE2 is not coming till 2020 so it's a long time to hold fire.

I was hoping for a new patch that may alleviate some of the current Soviet issues, like the experience defect.

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Post #: 106
RE: Der Ivan kommt! - 6/23/2019 3:45:08 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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Sorry to hear that, although I understand one quickly burns out writing these reports-maybe just short updates with 1-2 lines of commentary?

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Post #: 107
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