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Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks

 
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Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/17/2019 6:04:23 AM   
Technopiper

 

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Straight from the horse's mouth: https://taskandpurpose.com/navy-carrier-torpedo-defense-system-sucks
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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/17/2019 9:44:26 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

Torpedoes don't collide directly into a ship, but rather use an explosion to create an air bubble under the ship and potentially bend or break the bow, sinking the ship.


WTF? They obviously don't know what they are talking about. That is how most torpedoes have worked (or not!) for years by hitting the ship. The US Mark 14s problem (one of several) for the first part of World War II was when it impacted the hull of the ship is that it did not explode. Shows have lost bows before and survived. Breaking the keel will cause serious problems. And if torpedoes don't collide directly with the ship? It would not create an air bubble but rather explode under the keel and cause a powerful concussive wave of water that would damage the ship.

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/17/2019 10:36:13 AM   
Technopiper

 

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Not exactly sure what you're trying to say but here's a report by Department of Defence on killer bubbles, on page 2:
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a326738.pdf

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/17/2019 10:40:00 AM   
Technopiper

 

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More, South Korean corvette sunk by bubbles caused by an explosion: http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/20_05_10jigreport.pdf

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/17/2019 12:10:56 PM   
RangerJoe


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The report on the Korean corvette describes how the Mark 14 magnetic detonator was supposed to work. It describes a pressure wave caused by an explosion which broke the keel of the ship.

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/17/2019 12:47:47 PM   
RangerJoe


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Killer bubbles? One large bubble that consists of the gases from the rapid decomposition of the explosive charge. This also produces a pressure wave. I saw on a television program where gas bubbles caused by an underwater avalanche (I don't remember if there is a special term for those) could cause a ship to sink. Those gas bubbles would be created by the decompression of methane ice which is formed. One cubic meter of methane ice would create 164 cubic meters of methane gas. Those bubbles rising to the surface would then make the ship lose bouyancy. The gas is also highly flammable. This is the type of killer bubbles that I thought that the article referred to.

What is described is much like the damaging effect of a near miss by a bomb exploding. They US Navy found in WWII that a miss with the bomb exploding about 20 feet away from the hull actually could cause more damage to the ship than an actual hit.

By the way, if a nixie is deployed and working properly, it will still attract a torpedo even if the target ship's crew does not know that the torpedo is there. The torpedo does not say something like "Oh, the crew does not know that I am here. I think that I will then ignore the decoy and surprise them." Rather, if the torpedoes passes the nixie and does not destroy itself, it can then detect the ship if it is within the detection parameters.

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/17/2019 5:41:59 PM   
joey


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In reality, the US Navy's torpedo defense has always been poor. This should not surprise any of us on this forum. I can remember sitting on a submarine and sinking entire US surface fleets during Fleet Exercises along time ago with torpedoes. I doubt much has changed since then. Back then, the Soviets were the issue; now it is the Russians, Iranians, and Chinese. How can you defend against a torpedo if you can't find the sub that launches it?

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/17/2019 5:51:18 PM   
rustysi


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What is it that submariners like to say, "there are subs, and then there are targets".

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/17/2019 6:14:27 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

What is it that submariners like to say, "there are subs, and then there are targets".



And of course as we used to say in the P-3 community , "there are subs , and THEY ARE the targets!" :)


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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/17/2019 6:19:51 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

In reality, the US Navy's torpedo defense has always been poor. This should not surprise any of us on this forum. I can remember sitting on a submarine and sinking entire US surface fleets during Fleet Exercises along time ago with torpedoes. I doubt much has changed since then. Back then, the Soviets were the issue; now it is the Russians, Iranians, and Chinese. How can you defend against a torpedo if you can't find the sub that launches it?


True , but often the sub in the war games didn't realize that they "had been sunk" because they didn't know that a "simulated" torpedo had been dropped from above. :) It was always a shock for the sub to find out that they'd been spotted and tracked (or simulated attacked). Denial was always the reply , even when we'd produce a photo of a sub taken from above. "You couldn't see us. " But so often we'd photograph a sub in up to a couple of hundred of feet of water. God how I used to love asw in the Caribbean (or sometimes the med)! :)


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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/17/2019 6:24:23 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

What is it that submariners like to say, "there are subs, and then there are targets".



And of course as we used to say in the P-3 community , "there are subs , and THEY ARE the targets!" :)





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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/17/2019 6:26:05 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

But so often we'd photograph a sub in up to a couple of hundred of feet of water.


There aren't a lot of people that realize this is possible. I've heard it could be as deep as three hundred feet, in the right conditions.

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/17/2019 6:28:32 PM   
rustysi


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Then again lets not forget the attack subs. At least their original mission was to escort the CV TF, and hunt for enemy subs. Has that changed?

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/18/2019 8:12:01 AM   
alanschu

 

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I took the torpedoes don't explode by hitting a ship comment to refer to modern day torpedoes (my understanding is they are much better at forcing detonation under the keel of a ship now).

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/18/2019 12:01:27 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Then again lets not forget the attack subs. At least their original mission was to escort the CV TF, and hunt for enemy subs. Has that changed?



They do. BUTTT you never have enough nuclear attack subs. And in order to attack a sub, it means they must expose themselves to counter attacks.

I one got into a discussion with a USN destroyer captain in the 1980's about the then New Arliegh Burke class. I pointed out the major flaw of the "flight I" Burkes was a lack of helo support. The Commander got rather snippy saying "when will you airdales (Naval Aviation) realize that you don't need a aircraft to sink a submarine?". I pointed out that of course he could attack a sub , if the sub let him. His effective attack range was less than one third of a sub. A Helo , or any aircraft , isn't necessarily the best way to kill a sub. But it IS "The master of the cheap shot". You can drop all kinds of things on him , but there are very few subs that can swat an aircraft , and even then , only at extreme danger to themselves. "Fairness" in battle is over rated ,(and in my humble view) quite foolish. I'll take the "cheap shot" every time.

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/18/2019 2:33:33 PM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Then again lets not forget the attack subs. At least their original mission was to escort the CV TF, and hunt for enemy subs. Has that changed?



They do. BUTTT you never have enough nuclear attack subs. And in order to attack a sub, it means they must expose themselves to counter attacks.

I one got into a discussion with a USN destroyer captain in the 1980's about the then New Arliegh Burke class. I pointed out the major flaw of the "flight I" Burkes was a lack of helo support. The Commander got rather snippy saying "when will you airdales (Naval Aviation) realize that you don't need a aircraft to sink a submarine?". I pointed out that of course he could attack a sub , if the sub let him. His effective attack range was less than one third of a sub. A Helo , or any aircraft , isn't necessarily the best way to kill a sub. But it IS "The master of the cheap shot". You can drop all kinds of things on him , but there are very few subs that can swat an aircraft , and even then , only at extreme danger to themselves. "Fairness" in battle is over rated ,(and in my humble view) quite foolish. I'll take the "cheap shot" every time.


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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/18/2019 5:21:06 PM   
RangerJoe


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The best way to kill something is to call up and have someone else do it. I always said that my best weapon system was my radio . . .

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/19/2019 2:50:28 AM   
Lawless1


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Only two types of ships, submarines and targets

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/22/2019 6:33:36 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lawless1

Only two types of ships, submarines and targets


Dude, where you been. We're beyond that ten posts ago.


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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/22/2019 6:34:33 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

"Fairness" in battle is over rated ,(and in my humble view) quite foolish. I'll take the "cheap shot" every time.


Interesting personality trait.

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It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/22/2019 6:38:22 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

any aircraft , isn't necessarily the best way to kill a sub.


I don't necessarily agree here, I think it probably is the best way. But if not, its certainly been one of the most effective since WWII. To say the least 'eyes' in the air certainly impede a subs' freedom of operation.

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It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

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Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/22/2019 6:41:47 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

"Fairness" in battle is over rated ,(and in my humble view) quite foolish. I'll take the "cheap shot" every time.


Interesting personality trait.


Winning personality trait Anyone who plays fair in combat is an idjit

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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 3/22/2019 7:52:28 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

"Fairness" in battle is over rated ,(and in my humble view) quite foolish. I'll take the "cheap shot" every time.


Interesting personality trait.


Winning personality trait Anyone who plays fair in combat is an idjit


OK, but I was thinking more in game terms.


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RE: Navy Carrier Torpedo Defense Sucks - 4/10/2019 8:30:06 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lawless1

Only two types of ships, submarines and targets


Dude, where you been. We're beyond that ten posts ago.




He's leaving a Flaming datum!" Time to drop something on him.

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