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How to view enemy losses? - 3/12/2019 7:28:36 PM   
incbob


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I know I can look at combat results for enemy losses per combat. I also know for my own losses I can look at my Inventory for the scenario. But how do you look at estimated enemy losses?

For example I an in Turn 4 and looking at my inventory I have lost 22 planes so far in the scenario. Is there a way to figure out an estimate of how many planes the enemy has lost other than keeping track and just adding it up as I go.
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RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/12/2019 11:27:07 PM   
UnionWarDog

 

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Hi Incbob,

This goes back to my earlier post this week asking for victory/casualty dialog screens. Seems like a basic window for a strategy war game.

POST: Missing Pcs! Casualty/Battle Report & Generals!

I would hyperlink to it but I'm newbie and not allowed yet.

UnionWarDog

< Message edited by UnionWarDog -- 3/12/2019 11:28:25 PM >

(in reply to incbob)
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RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/19/2019 12:03:30 AM   
Iamstrategygame

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UnionWarDog

Hi Incbob,

This goes back to my earlier post this week asking for victory/casualty dialog screens. Seems like a basic window for a strategy war game.

POST: Missing Pcs! Casualty/Battle Report & Generals!

I would hyperlink to it but I'm newbie and not allowed yet.

UnionWarDog


I agree with you, they should allow us, to tailor casualties statistics to our own liking. I would love to see how many enemies I killed, how many man I lost, every battle, theater. With not being able to see those statistics, the game becomes immersion breaking. Right now it feels like I am just pushing squares, and using my squares, to either push the enemy square off the map or kill the enemy square through encirclement.

< Message edited by Iamstrategygame -- 3/19/2019 12:06:02 AM >

(in reply to UnionWarDog)
Post #: 3
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/19/2019 8:12:19 AM   
StuccoFresco

 

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A simple switch in the casualities chart to see the other side's casualities would be fine. I too would like to know how many "X" i'm killing.

(in reply to Iamstrategygame)
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RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/19/2019 10:37:34 AM   
UnionWarDog

 

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StuccoFresco, I fully agree with you. This is as simply as having the scoreboard for a sports game showing the score with out having to read the boxscore and having to manually tally the score yourself just to figure out who is ahead or what the game status is.

I looked back at my WotY and my TOAWI and II games and this has been a basic issue from the start.

< Message edited by UnionWarDog -- 3/19/2019 10:59:17 AM >

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Post #: 5
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/19/2019 10:38:50 AM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StuccoFresco

A simple switch in the casualities chart to see the other side's casualities would be fine. I too would like to know how many "X" i'm killing.


+1, I would like the same.

_____________________________

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“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

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(in reply to StuccoFresco)
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RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/19/2019 12:12:07 PM   
altipueri

 

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But how do you know the real numbers or the made up numbers of enemy dead and captured?

The British killed and captured more Germans and Italians in Tunis than had actually been there by about 50%. !

(figures taken from Liddell Hart's History of the Second World War)

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
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RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/19/2019 12:24:21 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamstrategygame

With not being able to see those statistics, the game becomes immersion breaking.


Yeah you assign someone to go over to the enemy side and ask them how many casualties they had. Happened all the time in real life...NOT. Immersion breaking is having a number pusher giving you exact numbers about enemy losses. That NEVER happened in any war. Ever. Even after a war exact numbers are never known. So now you want to have an accountant telling you exactly who lost what and that is immersion breaking????

_____________________________

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"Getting back to reality...I'll only go as a tourist!"

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Post #: 8
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/19/2019 12:44:11 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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We used to have rocket attacks at Bien Hoa, RSV, about once a week and usually nobody is hurt but there was one rocket attack the same month I arrived
in-country, November of 1970, in which several young men were killed and those in charge declared that the number of people killed or wounded was to be
a secret. They didn't want the VC or NVA to know how successful they were. Most of the time however the rounds impacted across the runway out near the
perimeter. Whenever rocket attacks occured when my load team and I were working we would retire to the extreme back of the aircraft revetment we were
in and laid down on the concrete floor. They usually lasted about half an hour or so. It took that long for the helicopters to launch and clear the
perimeter of any enemy troops.

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An estimated 6.3 million children under the age of 15 years died in 2017. 5.4 million of them were under the age of 5 and 2.5 million of those children died within the first month of life. This translates into 15 000 under-five deaths per day.

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RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/19/2019 4:23:48 PM   
StuccoFresco

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamstrategygame

With not being able to see those statistics, the game becomes immersion breaking.


Yeah you assign someone to go over to the enemy side and ask them how many casualties they had. Happened all the time in real life...NOT. Immersion breaking is having a number pusher giving you exact numbers about enemy losses. That NEVER happened in any war. Ever. Even after a war exact numbers are never known. So now you want to have an accountant telling you exactly who lost what and that is immersion breaking????


Uh, don't we get an exact summary of every single enemy equipment we destroy in every battle already? We also get a summary of total enemy losses at the end of the scenario, too. That isn't realistic either.

But i don't really care about realism, i'd just like to know how many X I killed because i like numbers and charts.

< Message edited by StuccoFresco -- 3/19/2019 4:24:07 PM >

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 10
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/19/2019 5:02:07 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

i like numbers and charts.

Until you get them, you can switch to hotseat before you end your turn, then end the turn and look at the other sides Inventory and Replacements. When you are done nosing around, set the computer to play the appropriate side and continue on. Probably doesn't work for Pbem games.

(in reply to StuccoFresco)
Post #: 11
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/19/2019 5:29:12 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Older versions of the game engine wrote CSV files about the battles
and I could use those records to construct a web page listing the
battles and the losses each side had for the entire turn. I don't
remember what I called that program but I had it up and working for
about a year and then for some reason CSV files weren't written any
longer and I dropped the project. Currently there's no way to find
out what the enemy losses are in a PBEM game unless you ask your
opponent and he tells you.

_____________________________

An estimated 6.3 million children under the age of 15 years died in 2017. 5.4 million of them were under the age of 5 and 2.5 million of those children died within the first month of life. This translates into 15 000 under-five deaths per day.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 12
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/19/2019 7:48:05 PM   
Iamstrategygame

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

i like numbers and charts.

Until you get them, you can switch to hotseat before you end your turn, then end the turn and look at the other sides Inventory and Replacements. When you are done nosing around, set the computer to play the appropriate side and continue on. Probably doesn't work for Pbem games.


thats a lot of hustle for a statistics that should be in the game in the first place. Every battlefield commander have to estimate opponent losses, it is a fundamental part of war. For example during operation KURSK German estimate were they were killing soviet soldier at a rate of 1 for 3, tanks at a rate of 1 for 5. America soldiers during the France invasion estimate they were eliminate German soldiers at a rate of 1 for 10, and tanks at a rate of 1 for 8. Also military give out award in terms of merit or badges for kills in action, such as iron cross. For a tank commander if he kills one enemy tank he earns himself 1 basic iron cross.
Hence we need a overall statistic of enemy losses. This statistic should also be more detailed like total men killed, total tank kill, artillery etc.

< Message edited by Iamstrategygame -- 3/19/2019 7:49:02 PM >

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
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RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/19/2019 8:29:22 PM   
Lobster


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The combat charts show you enemy losses. It's just like real life in that you don't have a computer spitting out the numbers. You have to add stuff.

_____________________________

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"Getting back to reality...I'll only go as a tourist!"

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Post #: 14
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/19/2019 8:43:18 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamstrategygame

Hence we need a overall statistic of enemy losses. This statistic should also be more detailed like total men killed, total tank kill, artillery etc.


It's easy to say you want to have something. But you never bother to get into the specifics. The game covers wars from Napoleon to last year. From civilian combatants to elite forces. Multitudes of different weapons, squad sizes, ship and aircraft. And then throw in the ability for people to make their own equipment databases and you begin to understand how this could potentially be a tremendously time consuming undertaking. I would rather see other things fixed. Supply is sorely in need of having something done with it. The air war needs to be taken out of the world of abstract and made more realistic just like was done for the naval side. Statistics are not as important to the game as improvements to the game engine.

On the other hand, a data field could be created for each equipment that could be filled with the number of crew. It probably wouldn't take much for that and wouldn't have to have any impact on the game at all. Just for people who like to see numbers dance before their eyes and can't be bothered with a calculator. But again, I'd rather the time be spent on the game instead of useless (imo) number crunching.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"Getting back to reality...I'll only go as a tourist!"

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Post #: 15
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/20/2019 12:53:50 AM   
Iamstrategygame

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

The combat charts show you enemy losses. It's just like real life in that you don't have a computer spitting out the numbers. You have to add stuff.


I am a general, adding up the tally of each battle is done by subordinate. Hence the casualty ledger, which we don't have. Stop being lazy and make a complete game.

< Message edited by Iamstrategygame -- 3/20/2019 12:54:36 AM >

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 16
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/20/2019 12:59:22 AM   
Iamstrategygame

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamstrategygame

Hence we need a overall statistic of enemy losses. This statistic should also be more detailed like total men killed, total tank kill, artillery etc.


It's easy to say you want to have something. But you never bother to get into the specifics. The game covers wars from Napoleon to last year. From civilian combatants to elite forces. Multitudes of different weapons, squad sizes, ship and aircraft. And then throw in the ability for people to make their own equipment databases and you begin to understand how this could potentially be a tremendously time consuming undertaking. I would rather see other things fixed. Supply is sorely in need of having something done with it. The air war needs to be taken out of the world of abstract and made more realistic just like was done for the naval side. Statistics are not as important to the game as improvements to the game engine.

On the other hand, a data field could be created for each equipment that could be filled with the number of crew. It probably wouldn't take much for that and wouldn't have to have any impact on the game at all. Just for people who like to see numbers dance before their eyes and can't be bothered with a calculator. But again, I'd rather the time be spent on the game instead of useless (imo) number crunching.


we should have the ability to dictate how many man is represented by a squad, company etc. For example in the scenario editor we should be allowed to edit this aspect of the game. And there also should be a page that adds up all the man we have, all the artillery. all the tanks and horses. No general goes into battle not knowing how many man he have, that would be stupidity on the highest level! The game will be so much more immersive this way. Right now the game feels like, pushing squares. I am not here to push square, I am here to make war!

(in reply to Lobster)
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RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/20/2019 2:18:39 AM   
Lobster


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I have a feeling you have never read the manual.

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http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"Getting back to reality...I'll only go as a tourist!"

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RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/20/2019 3:02:12 AM   
incbob


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I want to say that I am not in favor of knowing the exact information of the enemy, that would be immersion breaking and is not something that should be done. A person wanting that kind of information could just load up the side he wants.

What I would like is some kind of list that shows my sides intelligence estimate of 1)what the other side has. 2) How much has been destroyed of the other side?

Nations and Armies have intelligence services. They keep track of these kind of things. No, they aren't always accurate and exact and I am not asking for that. I am asking for an estimate.

I am sorry, but someone mentioned, just add it up. I should not have to do that. We live in a computer age. And if the reason this is not done is because, well you wouldn't know then why do we even get a report on the losses after a battle?

(in reply to Lobster)
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RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/20/2019 3:39:20 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: incbob
then why do we even get a report on the losses after a battle?


He wants a tally of individual soldiers. And that report you mention tells you everything you need to know. In fact it tells you more than any battlefield commander could ever know. Yes computers can do all sorts of things but someone has to work to make them do those things. You could ask Bob to make a window that gives you a running total but since he's busy squashing bugs you have a choice. A running tally of information you already have or squashed bugs. I'm sure he will go with the bugs. But no harm in asking.


_____________________________

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"Getting back to reality...I'll only go as a tourist!"

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RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/20/2019 8:13:46 AM   
StuccoFresco

 

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A tally for individual men/vehicles would conflict with the different unit "sizes" and probably wonky. But since battle reports already tells us exactly how many and which kind of enemy units and subunits we face in every single battle, a simple chart that summarizes all of them wouldn't break immersion. Yes, you can manually add up the numbers after every battle, but...


quote:

Every battlefield commander have to estimate opponent losses, it is a fundamental part of war. For example during operation KURSK German estimate were they were killing soviet soldier at a rate of 1 for 3, tanks at a rate of 1 for 5.


Well, battlefield estimates done on the frontlines were usually far from accurate, with sometimes "kill claims" that exceeded the number of enemy "units" actually present in the battle. Or the gross exaggeration made for aerial kills in ww2.

(in reply to Lobster)
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RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/22/2019 11:40:55 AM   
UnionWarDog

 

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Lobster, I tried to post some examples but I'm currently not allowed to post images or links in the forum. Just do a search for JTS games Victory Dialog and you'll find several examples to look at. A generic loss and victory dialog isn't anything extreme to ask for. Instead, it normally is a basic dialog with almost any strategic war game.

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RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/22/2019 12:12:51 PM   
altipueri

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamstrategygame

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

The combat charts show you enemy losses. It's just like real life in that you don't have a computer spitting out the numbers. You have to add stuff.


I am a general, adding up the tally of each battle is done by subordinate. Hence the casualty ledger, which we don't have. Stop being lazy and make a complete game.


You are not a general but a recruit, according to the number of posts.

Some more basic training is still required. Diplomacy may help.

(in reply to Iamstrategygame)
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RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/22/2019 1:58:06 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
On the other hand, a data field could be created for each equipment that could be filled with the number of crew. It probably wouldn't take much for that and wouldn't have to have any impact on the game at all.



_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"Getting back to reality...I'll only go as a tourist!"

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Post #: 24
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/22/2019 2:14:58 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Both sides have access to the two Loss Penalty values - which give a general idea about each side's losses.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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Post #: 25
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/22/2019 5:09:07 PM   
UnionWarDog

 

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Lobster/Curtis, As stated before, I purchased the prior TOAW & WotY additions but left the game because I missed the simple game dialogs provided by the JTS strategy games. I did build two large WW2 and ACW scenarios but felt something lacking while playing the games. Couldn't get a good victory/loss dialog of the battle and missed how leader units influenced the OOB. Now, on the 4th edition of TOAW, these basic missing features, which made me leave the game, are still missing.

I'm not willing to buy a polished version of the same game which I already own 3 copies of. The game needs some basic reporting features. Without those is basically just repeats with minor adjustments.

< Message edited by UnionWarDog -- 3/22/2019 5:12:41 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/22/2019 6:00:41 PM   
Lobster


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Opinions and belly buttons. Everyone has one. This is simply a matter of how someone prefers to count their beans. Nothing more, nothing less. I prefer to count bags of beans. You prefer to take out each bean and count it. No one is the same and that's ok. What you can do if you really wanted to count each bean is make a utility that counts individual soldiers.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 3/22/2019 6:02:47 PM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"Getting back to reality...I'll only go as a tourist!"

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Post #: 27
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/22/2019 8:51:56 PM   
sPzAbt653


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As it is now, we can get this data at the end of a scenario. While a scenario is in progress we can keep track ourselves by monitoring every Combat Report, but this is a lot of effort. I did reveal in Post #11 above how it is rather easily done, and if you watch any of Larry's AAR's I think he does this regularly. It's not difficult to do, but I think it does give you too much info.
That said, I think I can agree that an 'Overall Loss Report' would seem to be appropriate for TOAW. We can find it if we want to, so why not add a flip side to the I&R Report so we can check on these numbers that some players are keen to peruse

P.S. Switching sides in the I&R Report is available in the Editor, so I will stick my nose out and assume that this feature is already available but is disabled in game.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 28
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/22/2019 8:57:05 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

missed how leader units influenced the OOB.

This is done thru HQ's and various Proficiency settings but I think most scenarios don't address it directly nor do most scenarios have actual Leader counters. I would suggest not passing on TOAW IV for this reason.

(in reply to UnionWarDog)
Post #: 29
RE: How to view enemy losses? - 3/22/2019 10:32:25 PM   
UnionWarDog

 

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sPzAbt653, thanks for the feedback. Regarding leaders and HQ, how do you simulate leaders like, Lee, Sherman, Grant, Jackson, etc...in a ACW scenario or Rommel, Patton or Zuhkov in a divisional WW2 scenario. I would be curios to know.

Any side function/add-on to create victory or loss dialogs would work too but knowing their simplicity I think it would just be easier to add it to the game as a review dialog/window.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 30
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