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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working

 
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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/8/2019 7:39:38 PM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

Absolutely, I agree with this. I won't delete it, I'm saying it's pretty much redundant, unless someone (Ralph?) can prove otherwise and it's actually used somehow. And it really should be fixed allowing it also to act as an override.

I've already deleted the redundent "Graphics OverRide" folder, the one in the "Program Files(x86)" chain. I've tested my configugration now and it still works fine. So to be clear: I have only the single Graphics Override folder in the "Documents\My Games\" chain.

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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/8/2019 9:46:40 PM   
BigDuke66


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Can't you stick with 'Documents...' and leave 'Program Files...' alone ? I don't get it.

Not sure what is not to get here. And good joke btw because the game installs all the override stuff that comes with it in the Graphics Override folder of the game, that was not me or anybody else, and that stuff IS NOT USED if placed there.
And now it's somehow my fault because of what??? Because I don't manually correct an installation that doesn't work like intended?!

Again, neither me nor anybody else here has put all the stuff in the Graphics Override folder of the game directory, that was the latest installer .
I say it as simple as I can:
GAME installs stuff were it isn't used.
So those that program the game have to fix it and nobody else.
There is no one to blame but the game, Shadrach pointed this out too again and again so it's not like I'm alone here, not to speak of the Operation Neva scenario designer also pointing to the problem.
So either Ralph corrects the installer to have the override stuff under the user path again like the old installer had it OR corrects the game so that it uses the Graphics Override folder of the game directory. I prefer the later.


And just to get it straight, all this talk about the Program Files has nothing to do with the game itself but just with Windows that needs special allows so that programs work flawless if installed into any of the Program Files folders that Windows makes. That is why everyone usually tells you to NOT install anything there, it's no TOAWIV related problem and has surely nothing to do with the problem we have here.
I at least didn't install the game in any of the folders Windows made.

And just to wrap it up.
Anyone not seeing this problem has like still the Graphics Override folder under the user path full from the old installation, of course one can't see the problem because all graphics are in a directory that the game uses.

Last but not least, the new installer already had folder problems, that is why 4.1.0.21 was thrown out, now we need 4.1.0.22 to get this folder problem solved.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadrach
IMO there should be a hierarchy consisting of the following, in order of importance:
1. Scenario specific directory in My Games -> Graphics Override. Files will apply to specific scenario.
2. Scenario specific directory in Programs -> Graphics Override. Files will apply to specific scenario, unless explicitly overridden above (this is where we are talking about).
3. Files placed in My Games -> Graphics Override. Files will apply to all scenarios, unless explicitly overridden above (this is where graphics mods work).

That hierarchy is good, would like to see it working that way.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 3/8/2019 9:49:13 PM >


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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/8/2019 10:40:49 PM   
Lobster


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From what I understand the game installer puts the Graphics Override folder in the game folder because it has no way of knowing where someone is going to install the game. If the game is installed in the system drive then there needs to be a Graphics Override in the Documents folder because Micro$oft security paranoia does not allow some things to be loaded onto the system drive. If someone gets a hair up their rear and installs the game someplace other than the system drive then the Graphics Override works in the installation location. It isn't the fault of the game installer. It's the fault of Micro$oft and security paranoia. This is how I understand it.

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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/8/2019 11:28:51 PM   
BigDuke66


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
From what I understand the game installer puts the Graphics Override folder in the game folder because it has no way of knowing where someone is going to install the game.

What? When I set the installation path the game obviously knows where it is installed.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
If the game is installed in the system drive then there needs to be a Graphics Override in the Documents folder because Micro$oft security paranoia does not allow some things to be loaded onto the system drive.

That counts for certain folders like Program Files & Program Files (x86) and maybe other folders from the operating system, the system drive itself isn't specially protected afaik because I do install software there and it usually works flawless.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
If someone gets a hair up their rear and installs the game someplace other than the system drive then the Graphics Override works in the installation location.

I did install on a different drive and the Graphics Override in the installation location does not work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
It isn't the fault of the game installer. It's the fault of Micro$oft and security paranoia. This is how I understand it.

Sorry no, there isn't anything Windows related here, the game just doesn't use the folder it itself installed but the one under the user path. If it would be the other way around you could maybe think Windows blocks access or so but not with the current constellation.

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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/9/2019 1:01:42 AM   
Lobster


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Of course it knows where it is. I never said it didn't. But the programmer never knows what weird crap a user is going to pull so has to attempt to cover some logical bases. It's known as dummy proofing. Of course the dummys usually find a way to be more dumb than the programmer ever imagined.

So, when you install TOAW on the system drive the guy that did the program has to assume you will do the default and so there is a folder in Documents to cover THAT base. But if a user installs it somewhere other then the default the programmer has to cover THAT base too. I'm not saying it works right or it works wrong. I'm saying this is how it needs to be done because of Micro$oft. Both eventualities have to be covered. That's the only reason I can see for having the Graphics Override installed in both places. That IS Windows related.

What I'm not going to do is install anything more that what's on my computer. I'll try the wife's laptop. She's asleep and won't know a thing. Get back after I see what happens. This should be a fine pita.

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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/9/2019 1:59:39 AM   
Lobster


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A fresh install does not put anything in the Documents/.../Graphics Override file. It's totally empty. The game looks in that folder for modified files and finds nothing there. You have to manually put the correct files there if you want them to be used.

After the game was installed there wasn't even a TOAW folder in Documents. I started FitE2 and only after I started a game did the Documents/.../Graphics Override folder appear. So it's no surprise it's empty since a TOAW folder didn't even exist until I started a scenario.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 3/9/2019 2:02:15 AM >


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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/9/2019 2:18:41 AM   
BigDuke66


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DELETE PLEASE

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 3/9/2019 2:37:32 AM >


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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/9/2019 2:19:25 AM   
BigDuke66


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Of course it knows where it is. I never said it didn't. But the programmer never knows what weird crap a user is going to pull so has to attempt to cover some logical bases. It's known as dummy proofing. Of course the dummys usually find a way to be more dumb than the programmer ever imagined.

So, when you install TOAW on the system drive the guy that did the program has to assume you will do the default and so there is a folder in Documents to cover THAT base. But if a user installs it somewhere other then the default the programmer has to cover THAT base too. I'm not saying it works right or it works wrong. I'm saying this is how it needs to be done because of Micro$oft. Both eventualities have to be covered. That's the only reason I can see for having the Graphics Override installed in both places. That IS Windows related.


Neither the drive nor the "weird crap a user is going to pull" has something to do with it.
The user folder is always there as that one is made by Windows and it can be utilized by all programs, that is why so much crap ends up there because, unlike the earlier days of the PC where one coudl bet on finding save files in the game directory, today every software what to store there stuff somewhere under the user folder.
You can install the game wherever you want TOAWIV will always add a folder under the user path.

AFAIk the reason for having 2 Graphics Override folders is because the stuff installed by the game and the stuff installed by the user should be separate. So to make sure if the game is removed the stuff installed by the user, that a reinstallation of the game could not provide, is still there and usable & recoverable by the user.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 3/9/2019 2:59:43 AM >


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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/9/2019 2:26:45 AM   
BigDuke66


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

A fresh install does not put anything in the Documents/.../Graphics Override file. It's totally empty. The game looks in that folder for modified files and finds nothing there. You have to manually put the correct files there if you want them to be used.

After the game was installed there wasn't even a TOAW folder in Documents. I started FitE2 and only after I started a game did the Documents/.../Graphics Override folder appear. So it's no surprise it's empty since a TOAW folder didn't even exist until I started a scenario.


And that solves the problem of the Graphics Override folder in the game directory not being used... not.
Not sure what you expected but that is the way the latest installer works, unlike earlier version that installed half the game under the user path.

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Post #: 39
RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/9/2019 11:21:24 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

And that solves the problem of the Graphics Override folder in the game directory not being used... not.
Not sure what you expected but that is the way the latest installer works, unlike earlier version that installed half the game under the user path.


What it does is pin down the problem in a way that someone does not have to read through post after post trying to figure out what exactly is being said. Now it's up to someone to fix it. Please, continue as you were.

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Post #: 40
RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/9/2019 11:36:08 AM   
Shadrach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
What it does is pin down the problem in a way that someone does not have to read through post after post trying to figure out what exactly is being said. Now it's up to someone to fix it. Please, continue as you were.


Well, you're the one that's kept it going by playing the dogged contrarian

Anyway, we can discuss the hows, whys and whatsnot until the cows come home. It won't the change the fact the folder is installed, but not read by the game, and this causes an issue for some scenarios that are shipped with the game, even one that was used as a "showcase" of the game.

Until we get Ralph to chime in on this nothing more can be said that hasn't already been. However, I will actually contact support on this, and maybe they can notify him as well.

< Message edited by Shadrach -- 3/9/2019 11:37:11 AM >

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Post #: 41
RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/9/2019 4:19:53 PM   
larryfulkerson


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I've already deleted the redundent "Graphics OverRide" folder, the one in the "Program Files(x86)" chain. I've tested my configugration now and it still works fine. So to be clear: I have only the single Graphics Override folder in the "Documents\My Games\" chain.

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Post #: 42
RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/9/2019 5:32:16 PM   
Lobster


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Don't bother Larry. You'll be called names.

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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/9/2019 5:33:46 PM   
BigDuke66


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@larryfulkerson
And the Graphics Override folder under My Games is empty or did you copy the content from the other folder there?

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 3/9/2019 5:34:23 PM >


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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/9/2019 5:39:42 PM   
Lobster


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I would offer something like, he might have had the files in there from before he did the reinstall from the .20 patch which would have left those files alone but I would run the risk of being called contrarian. I would add that's why mine never had the problem yours did because I also had files in there from the old pre .20 version and the uninstall/reinstall left them alone and it reads everything in the Documents just fine. Sorry not trying to be contrary.

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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/9/2019 6:00:34 PM   
BigDuke66


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Yea that is the point, for all who had the old version installed it's no problem at all, they can't see it because both Graphics Override folder contain the same content.
Those who cleaned the system from the old version or are installing TOAWIV with the latest installer for the first time, well they are fu...

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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/11/2019 12:56:37 AM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:


@larryfulkerson
And the Graphics Override folder under My Games is empty or did you copy the content from the other folder there?


No and yes, I moved everything to "My Games/" and deleted the other graphicsOverride folder. I'd rather do all my editing in the "My Games/" chain because on the windows folder panel the two directories are close together and that makes it easier for me to move documents and pictures and executables between the two folders. It streamlines my procedure to do my moves. I'm working faster with this setup. I'd rather not have to switch between "saves" and somewhere in the "Program Files(x86)" chain. I've gotten used to it and it's like a habit now. I know where everything is and I'd rather not change it now.


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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/11/2019 4:03:45 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Yea that is the point, for all who had the old version installed it's no problem at all, they can't see it because both Graphics Override folder contain the same content.
Those who cleaned the system from the old version or are installing TOAWIV with the latest installer for the first time, well they are fu...


That pretty much sums it up. You are entirely correct. It needs a patch now. Not when the next full patch is released.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 3/11/2019 4:04:33 AM >


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RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/11/2019 6:04:46 AM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

It needs a patch now.

Even if all it did is move everything from the wrong directory to the correct one and then delete the wrong directory. Doing all this automatically so that the user doesn't have to do anything at all except start it. There's an entry in the registry for the program to discern where the instillation directory is so I'm thinking it's possible to do this.

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Post #: 49
RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/17/2019 12:34:35 PM   
Shadrach


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So I've contacted support about a week ago, and they've forwarded the issue to Ralph. No idea when or even if he's going to respond here though.

I actually found a document I think Ralph shared a while back on my Google Drive:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t1AAeqZg01YyopfBxNqwVV7Y6VcryPEpHtuvUdXjdLE/

quote:

Scenario Specific (Graphics, eqp, etc.) directory search algorithm using Kasserine 43 as an example.
First look in the directory the scenario was loaded from. This is new and required for Steam.
Then in Documents/AltGraphics/Scenario Name
Then in Documents/Graphics/Scenario Name
Then in Install/AltGraphics/Scenario Name
Then in Install/Graphics/Scenario Name


Confusing, since "AltGraphics" must be wrong, there is no such folder, and renaming "Graphics Override" to "AltGraphics" doesn't work.
But it also says the game looks in the "Install/Graphics" folder.

So for a quick 'n dirty workaround, copy all content of "Install/Graphics Override" to this folder and the game will use the correct overrides.

At the moment I'm playing the default "Anzio 1944 @2 km" scen, and it changes some mapoptional files in a way which is really important to the scenario scoring system, so things like this really do matter.

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Post #: 50
RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/17/2019 4:39:01 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 38832
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From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:


Confusing, since "AltGraphics" must be wrong, there is no such folder, and renaming "Graphics Override" to "AltGraphics" doesn't work.
But it also says the game looks in the "Install/Graphics" folder.

So for a quick 'n dirty workaround, copy all content of "Install/Graphics Override" to this folder and the game will use the correct overrides.

Are you saying that the latest and greatest version of the game engine ( 4.1.0.21 ) does this now? That's weird. I hope somebody looks into this. I'm not sure I want to go through some gymnastics to make it work right. A patch might fix this I'm thinking.

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Post #: 51
RE: Grahics override for counter numbers not working - 3/17/2019 8:44:39 PM   
Shadrach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
Are you saying that the latest and greatest version of the game engine ( 4.1.0.21 ) does this now? That's weird. I hope somebody looks into this. I'm not sure I want to go through some gymnastics to make it work right. A patch might fix this I'm thinking.

Oh definitely a patch. This is just a workaround if someone (like me) wants to save the ca. 500MB of disk space on the C: drive and instead keep the files wherever the game is installed. I'm kind of OCD about not using disk space on C: to keep the OS backup as small as possible

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