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Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers needed - 3/4/2019 1:35:55 PM   
mussey


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From: Cleve-Land
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After several months of editing, The Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) is now being released for community play testing. It was built upon Bob Cross' rendition of SPI's The Next War, which is a superb scenario. I want to thank Cathar1244 for helping me with an enormous amount of orbat assistance to help make this as historically accurate as possible for this time period.

Please respond with any feedback here, my goal is to have a final product ready by Sunday 3/24/19.

Several issues need scrutiny and further review:
- Supply levels, especially for the Warsaw Pact. Do they need a bump?
- Naval units, I did the best I could on modeling them through the editor, but they may need tweaking.
- Reinforcements, are there any major mistakes with place and time? Pay particular attention to United States forces.

Any other suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by mussey -- 3/4/2019 6:30:32 PM >


_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

Post #: 1
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/4/2019 3:37:32 PM   
pz501


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From: Southern Pennsylvania
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Thought I'd take the opportunity to point out a few problem areas with the disposition of M60A2 tanks in the U.S. TO&E/OOB.

During this time period, these tanks were assigned on the basis of 51 each to Mech Infantry Divisions, and 108 each to Armored Divisions (all under the "H" Series TO&E's). This really applied to 7th Army (USAEUR) for the most part. The was only one battalion in CONUS.

The breakdown went like this:

USAEUR/7th Army:
V Corps, 3rd AD, 1st Brigade (3-33 Armor) 54 tanks
V Corps, 3rd AD, 3rd Brigade (1-32 Armor) 54 tanks
V Corps, 8th ID Mech, 1st Brigade (Co C, 4-69 Armor) 17 tanks
V Corps, 8th ID Mech, 2nd Brigade (Co C, 2-68 Armor) 17 tanks
V Corps, 8th ID Mech, 3rd Brigade (Co C, 5-68 Armor) 17 Tanks
VII Corps, 1st AD, 1st Brigade (1-37 Armor) 54 tanks
VII Corps, 1st AD, 3rd Brigade (3-35 Armor) 54 tanks
VII Corps, 3rd ID Mech, 1st Brigade (Co C, 2-64 Armor) 17 tanks
VII Corps, 3rd ID Mech, 1st Brigade (Co C, 3-64 Armor) 17 tanks
VII Corps, 3rd ID Mech, 2nd Brigade (Co C, 1-64 Armor) 17 tanks

In CONUS:
III Corps, 2nd AD, 1st Brigade, (1-67 Armor) 54 tanks

Why Mech Divisions didn't operate the M60A2 in "pure" battalions like the Armored Divisions did was a mystery at the time, and remains one (to me at least) to this day.

2nd AD at Ft. Hood only had the one battalion noted above, and only two brigades of the Division were located there. The Division's 3rd Brigade would have been "Brigade 75" which was stationed in packets at Grafenwohr, Hohenfels, and Wildflecken. It was later moved to Garlstedt, and formally re-flagged as 2nd AD Forward, but that is outside of the scenario time frame anyway. Brigade 75 had no M60A2's assigned.

At the time the scenario takes place, I was a member of 3-33 Armor, and trust me, the M60A2 was a complete maintenance nightmare with very low reliability when it came to it's main gun/launcher. For that matter, so was the M551 Sheridan that Cav units had in the same time period.

Hope this is of some use to you.

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 2
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/4/2019 5:01:01 PM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

I want to thank Cathar1244 for helping me with an enormous amount of orbat assistance to help make this as historically accurate as possible for this time period.


Mussey,

Very kind of you to acknowledge my assistance, I am glad to help. I had accumulated some data and this is a good use for it.

Bob Cross did us all a huge favor by "TOAW-izing" this old classic, and you have put a ton of effort into making it even more fun. Great job by both of you.

Cheers

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 3
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/4/2019 5:02:54 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 561
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pz501, that data you posted is a keeper. Thank you.

Cheers

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 4
teaser - 3/4/2019 5:08:04 PM   
mussey


Posts: 650
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
Teaser alert:

Soviet 103rd AB with some Marine friends are assaulting Zealand. This is the first game turn of war, after several pulses...




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 5
RE: teaser - 3/4/2019 5:18:59 PM   
cathar1244

 

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Wow, the Pact moved onto that airfield on Bornholm quickly. Are the Danish "civilian units" home guard troops?

Cheers

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 6
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/4/2019 5:26:48 PM   
pz501


Posts: 133
Joined: 10/1/2003
From: Southern Pennsylvania
Status: offline
Cathar,

Thank you. No problem at all. OOB research has always been a hobby of mine, and if you need anything else for the U.S. Army during this time period, just let me know. I was doing a super detailed OOB for another game "Danube Front '85" from John Tiller that involved a 1976 starting date at one time. The OOB file was researched and completed, but the scenario was never done. The OOB itself can be read using programs like Word or WordPad. If you guys want it, I can send you a copy. It looks like you and I have been using many of the same sources, and our research seems to dovetail nicely.

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 7
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/4/2019 5:56:57 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pz501

Cathar,

Thank you. No problem at all. OOB research has always been a hobby of mine, and if you need anything else for the U.S. Army during this time period, just let me know. I was doing a super detailed OOB for another game "Danube Front '85" from John Tiller that involved a 1976 starting date at one time. The OOB file was researched and completed, but the scenario was never done. The OOB itself can be read using programs like Word or WordPad. If you guys want it, I can send you a copy. It looks like you and I have been using many of the same sources, and our research seems to dovetail nicely.


pz501, the best information I've seen so far in terms of OOB are the USAREUR troop and station lists, but the last one I have is for 1976. In the 13 years after that, the implementation of the U.S. Army Regimental System and the move from H series to J series TOE's induced a lot of unit re-flaggings and major combat unit structure changes. If you know of good sources for 1977-1988, please advise. I am aware of one German site for 1989 that is very good in terms of its information -- https://www.relikte.com/literatur.htm

If you're willing to post the OOB you mentioned here, please do so. I also have assembled a list of USAREUR combat units to battalion level for 1985.

Cheers

(in reply to pz501)
Post #: 8
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/4/2019 6:11:14 PM   
pz501


Posts: 133
Joined: 10/1/2003
From: Southern Pennsylvania
Status: offline
Cathar,

I tried to upload that OOB and this system will not allow it. Say's the file type is not supported. If you can PM me an email address for you, I'll sent it that way. When I tried emailing you through this system using your profile, I can't include any attachments that way either.

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 9
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/4/2019 6:15:50 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

Posts: 38336
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pz501

Cathar,

I tried to upload that OOB and this system will not allow it. Say's the file type is not supported. If you can PM me an email address for you, I'll sent it that way. When I tried emailing you through this system using your profile, I can't include any attachments that way either.

Just change the filename to "[WhatEverIt'sNameIs].txt" and then the guy at the other end just removes the ".txt"
and you've just cheated the system.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 3/4/2019 6:16:38 PM >


_____________________________

you can't get off unless you cough.

(in reply to pz501)
Post #: 10
RE: teaser - 3/4/2019 6:23:12 PM   
mussey


Posts: 650
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Wow, the Pact moved onto that airfield on Bornholm quickly. Are the Danish "civilian units" home guard troops?

Cheers


[Edit: this refers to Zealand] Yes, Home Guard. Soviets have several advantages: 1) AB has a about a plus 40% advantage in Proficiency, 2) Interior lines (they landed in the middle of the island), 3) the two WP marine rgts were mad as hell.

Bornholm was invaded with two rgts of Polish marines. They're go-getters. The remaining rgt assaulted Zealand.

< Message edited by mussey -- 3/4/2019 6:27:27 PM >


_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 11
RE: teaser - 3/4/2019 8:32:43 PM   
MikeJ19


Posts: 2704
Joined: 1/29/2014
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
I opened it up to try out - looks great. I selected the hot seat option. After selecting invade right away option - ended turns for both WP and NATO. Turn 2 started and NATO went first? This does not make sense to me...

Looking forward to playing this game

Thanks for all the hard work,

Mike

_____________________________

Mike

Retired Gunner

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 12
RE: teaser - 3/4/2019 9:30:40 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11497
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19

After selecting invade right away option - ended turns for both WP and NATO. Turn 2 started and NATO went first?


Turn Variable Initiative OFF.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to MikeJ19)
Post #: 13
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/5/2019 12:53:25 PM   
pz501


Posts: 133
Joined: 10/1/2003
From: Southern Pennsylvania
Status: offline
Cathar,

I sent you a PM with that OOB we were talking about using Larry Fulkerson's method, and it seems to have worked. Check your inbox.

Larry, thanks for the help!

(in reply to pz501)
Post #: 14
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/5/2019 2:44:29 PM   
mussey


Posts: 650
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pz501

Thought I'd take the opportunity to point out a few problem areas with the disposition of M60A2 tanks in the U.S. TO&E/OOB.

During this time period, these tanks were assigned on the basis of 51 each to Mech Infantry Divisions, and 108 each to Armored Divisions (all under the "H" Series TO&E's). This really applied to 7th Army (USAEUR) for the most part. The was only one battalion in CONUS.

The breakdown went like this:

USAEUR/7th Army:
V Corps, 3rd AD, 1st Brigade (3-33 Armor) 54 tanks
V Corps, 3rd AD, 3rd Brigade (1-32 Armor) 54 tanks
V Corps, 8th ID Mech, 1st Brigade (Co C, 4-69 Armor) 17 tanks
V Corps, 8th ID Mech, 2nd Brigade (Co C, 2-68 Armor) 17 tanks
V Corps, 8th ID Mech, 3rd Brigade (Co C, 5-68 Armor) 17 Tanks
VII Corps, 1st AD, 1st Brigade (1-37 Armor) 54 tanks
VII Corps, 1st AD, 3rd Brigade (3-35 Armor) 54 tanks
VII Corps, 3rd ID Mech, 1st Brigade (Co C, 2-64 Armor) 17 tanks
VII Corps, 3rd ID Mech, 1st Brigade (Co C, 3-64 Armor) 17 tanks
VII Corps, 3rd ID Mech, 2nd Brigade (Co C, 1-64 Armor) 17 tanks

In CONUS:
III Corps, 2nd AD, 1st Brigade, (1-67 Armor) 54 tanks

Why Mech Divisions didn't operate the M60A2 in "pure" battalions like the Armored Divisions did was a mystery at the time, and remains one (to me at least) to this day.

2nd AD at Ft. Hood only had the one battalion noted above, and only two brigades of the Division were located there. The Division's 3rd Brigade would have been "Brigade 75" which was stationed in packets at Grafenwohr, Hohenfels, and Wildflecken. It was later moved to Garlstedt, and formally re-flagged as 2nd AD Forward, but that is outside of the scenario time frame anyway. Brigade 75 had no M60A2's assigned.

At the time the scenario takes place, I was a member of 3-33 Armor, and trust me, the M60A2 was a complete maintenance nightmare with very low reliability when it came to it's main gun/launcher. For that matter, so was the M551 Sheridan that Cav units had in the same time period.

Hope this is of some use to you.



PZ, thanks for the feedback. Good info. The M60A2 Starship made the cut and is in the orbats. Let me know if you find any more info.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to pz501)
Post #: 15
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/5/2019 7:51:34 PM   
MikeJ19


Posts: 2704
Joined: 1/29/2014
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
Hi Guys,

I mentioned the fact that NATO went first on the second turn - which is the first war turn - I think that this should not happen. The second turn needs to begin with the WP invasion, or whenever they declare war.

I do not want to have to turn off the variable initiative, I really like it.

Thanks,



_____________________________

Mike

Retired Gunner

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 16
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/5/2019 11:53:49 PM   
mussey


Posts: 650
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19

Hi Guys,

I mentioned the fact that NATO went first on the second turn - which is the first war turn - I think that this should not happen. The second turn needs to begin with the WP invasion, or whenever they declare war.

I do not want to have to turn off the variable initiative, I really like it.

Thanks,




MikeJ, as a suggestion, if you were to leave variable game turn on, and if NATO were to go first, then do not move any units. Or if you were to, do a very limited move (maybe 10 movement points?).

However, a point to remember is that the aggressor in most wars moves first...

In my opinion, variable-turn movement doesn't work in most games. For example, if NATO were to move first, what would happen if WP were to get x2 turns in a row. Not very realistic. For this scenario, I highly recommend that you leave it off. Give it a try and see what you think, I will need your opinion on WP supply levels and other matters as we move ahead with Beta refinements.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to MikeJ19)
Post #: 17
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/10/2019 12:34:35 PM   
mussey


Posts: 650
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
I am making some changes to the initial mobilization time line through the Event Editor. This applies to the 1st turn of war only (GT2)"Sudden War":
- WP forces take 24 hours to assemble, thus their movement is reduced by 24/84 = -28%.
- NATO take a 20 hour delay to respond/surprise, plus 24 hrs to assemble. Movement = -56%
- I tweaked the SHOCK values, WP 123, NATO 98, which = 25% WP advantage. I did this so that more NATO units will not be frozen/unmovable on the first turn.

The net result for WP is that they still have a 25% shock advantage, but their advance/penetration reduced to 72% movement. For NATO, retarded movement to their war time deployment areas and a 2% chance that a formation will be unable to move.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 18
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/12/2019 4:33:05 PM   
mussey


Posts: 650
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
Another teaser:

The Finmark region or Norway is easily overrun by the Soviet 6th Army. But with no railroad, and limited sea supplies along a few villages along the coast, not sure how far they will go before they run out of steam. The goal is to at least take Bardufoss and Narvik. The 76th Airborne Div., located at Pskov can aid the the advance, but the terrain in the landing areas is rough...






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 19
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/12/2019 4:37:20 PM   
mussey


Posts: 650
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
Here's the Narvik region:






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 20
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/14/2019 2:47:57 PM   
mussey


Posts: 650
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
Another teaser:

Out of all the changes I've created, the addition of US 2nd Fleet and the freedom to deploy reaction forces such as 82nd Airborne, 2nd Marines, UK Airborne and Marines, are the most stunning. Once war begins, where would they deploy? Various options here include Central or Southern Europe, though the most immediate would be Norway or Denmark. I think deployment to Denmark will be too little too late, thus Norway is most probable.

Norway is huge covering many miles of rugged coastline. Do they support Norwegian forces around Narvik, or Oslo anticipating Soviet invasion from the Baltic? Or maybe somewhere in between like Trondheim? This is fascinating...

This pic shows where these reaction forces are currently staging:






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 21
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/14/2019 3:02:17 PM   
mussey


Posts: 650
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
Big picture:






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 22
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/19/2019 6:09:51 PM   
CaptainMaxwell

 

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From: Vienna
Status: offline
Aarrghh...

stupid forum ate my post. Long story short, I am Austrian, I don't like what you have done to them. If you you are interested, PM me. I should by able to rectify that.
Plus some other stuff that I am too lazy to repeat...

_____________________________

Maxwell is always right.
He may be misinformed,
inexact, bullheaded, fickle,
ignorant, even abnormally
stupid, but
NEVER WRONG!

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 23
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/19/2019 6:35:10 PM   
cathar1244

 

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Servus Maxwell

Do you have good online sources that describe the Austrian border fortifications and which battalions were to man them in case of war?

Cheers

(in reply to CaptainMaxwell)
Post #: 24
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/19/2019 9:15:49 PM   
mussey


Posts: 650
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptainMaxwell

Aarrghh...

stupid forum ate my post. Long story short, I am Austrian, I don't like what you have done to them. If you you are interested, PM me. I should by able to rectify that.
Plus some other stuff that I am too lazy to repeat...


Any good info you have would greatly benefit the 1979 scenario. Post here on this thread so that others can benefit as well. The locations of the Fortress units would be most helpful, and anything else as well.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to CaptainMaxwell)
Post #: 25
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/20/2019 5:45:41 AM   
cathar1244

 

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Joined: 9/5/2009
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Mussey,

Just wanted to congratulate your map work with Scandinavia. Extending an existing map is different than creating a map from scratch, and it can easily look subtly wrong in relation to the original map. Your map work looks great.

Cheers

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 26
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/28/2019 12:43:51 AM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 704
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Hello, I hope this feedback is not too basic, but on Turn 1 (the Option turn), Polish Army is able to move. I was used to Turn 1 being no WP can move or changes to deployment (due to the Tension or Sudden options)... just wasn't sure if they were supposed to be able to move on T1, if that was some new or if I am remembering wrong.

Also, is there a graphics package that makes some of the WP colors more "Warsaw Pactish"? ... E.g., Polish are green now and look like US forces look like in the old version. Some of the unit colors are a bit confusing to me. Hard to unlearn the old reds and maroons, and feels weird having green WP units.

Anyway, thanks again for all you do!




Attachment (1)

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 27
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/28/2019 4:11:02 AM   
mussey


Posts: 650
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

Hello, I hope this feedback is not too basic, but on Turn 1 (the Option turn), Polish Army is able to move. I was used to Turn 1 being no WP can move or changes to deployment (due to the Tension or Sudden options)... just wasn't sure if they were supposed to be able to move on T1, if that was some new or if I am remembering wrong.

Also, is there a graphics package that makes some of the WP colors more "Warsaw Pactish"? ... E.g., Polish are green now and look like US forces look like in the old version. Some of the unit colors are a bit confusing to me. Hard to unlearn the old reds and maroons, and feels weird having green WP units.

Anyway, thanks again for all you do!





Thanks for the feedback Hellen. I will need to correct the Events Editor to ensure this. Good catch. Was there any other such anomalies with 1st turn movement?

With generous help from Cathar, an icon color (.col file) is being put together and will be available upon final release. This should be soon. I overhauled much of the naval units and am doing final play testing now.

Let me know if you find anything else!

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 28
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/28/2019 5:41:48 AM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 704
Joined: 10/10/2005
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Wow, that's great, the color thing was really confusing ...

As of the other Turn 1 issue: there was also a Polish Naval Air Fighter (I forgot exactly which it named) but it is in the very next formation as above. Also movable. I can post of screen shot of it, too (when I get on that computer.) Thanks again for cool update, looking forward to it!

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 29
RE: Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) play testers ne... - 3/28/2019 6:57:15 AM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 704
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
Another observation (looking at NATO forces on their turn 2 in "Tension" mode) ....

The entire Italian army is already mobilized (same for French / Belg / Dutch / looks like all of NATO). If memory serves, in the original version, the Italians don't mobilized until like turns 5 or 6 (?) maybe earlier if Austria is invaded, and even then not all forces. Seems like the French were a bit later, and def. in the original the Danes are not ready at all at turn 2.

Anyway, not sure if that was by design (b/c of the added WP forces) or if it might be a bit too early for NATO to have all those forces ready to move on turn 2 (tension mode.) Just thought you might want to pull back NATO mobilization ... noticed in events the time frame accounted for re: REFORGER and thought, all those forces could not possibly ready to move that quick, even if they already there.

Thanks again for the great scene!

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 30
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