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RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS America (A)

 
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RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/10/2019 6:52:40 PM   
BrucePowers


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Mike, I am not giving away anything here because I have purposely stayed away from M Solli's AAR. However, remember the 3 x3 we all played a few years ago. Mike likes the Aleutians. I do not remember if it was you or Steven Clarke. But one of you set an ambush up there with a couple of carriers. I am not saying do it again, but I do know he likes to fight up there. That was if I remember, you, Bob Trappaso and Steven Clarke against Mike and I and I can't remember number three. Bob had animals in the title of his AAR. I also remember we had a big fight in New Caledonia.

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 61
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/10/2019 6:59:48 PM   
BrucePowers


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I spelled Bob's name wrong. His screen name is rtrapasso.

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RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/10/2019 7:04:30 PM   
BrucePowers


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It was Theardwar 3x3.

(in reply to BrucePowers)
Post #: 63
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/10/2019 7:11:53 PM   
BrucePowers


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Ok my memory was faulty. It was Bob, Speedy (Steven) and Niceguy against Fabertong, Mike S and I. We only got into late 42. The air model in the mod we used had issues.

(in reply to BrucePowers)
Post #: 64
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/10/2019 7:19:43 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18296
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

Ok my memory was faulty. It was Bob, Speedy (Steven) and Niceguy against Fabertong, Mike S and I. We only got into late 42. The air model in the mod we used had issues.


Bruce, I remember that 3x3 well. Lots of trash talking in THE THREAD!!! for that one.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to BrucePowers)
Post #: 65
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/11/2019 8:10:56 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 6027
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Oil. I intend to make Mike's economic constraint Oil in our game. Aside from organizing and planning some of my movements from the West Coast to forward areas, I've been filling the time while waiting for the turn with trying to lay out some longer term strategic goals. Until Mike forces me to change my plans I want to invest heavily in an attack axis from Darwin to Koepang, then Kendari, and finally Manado. Reaching, capturing, holding, and building out Manado will accomplish one of the goals of MacArthur and Halsey by cutting off shipping to and from the SRA to Japan everywhere South and East of the Philippines. They got there through the Solomons and New Guinea. One advantage of starting from Darwin, assuming I can build it and the connecting bases up well enough, is that I can bomb oil production along the way, and not just after I reach Manado. I figure if I cut off shipping South of the PI I can swarm the areas between Singapore and Japan, North of Borneo and the PI, with my subs. By that time I should have fully effective torpedoes. If I'm able to pursue this axis of attack it will be interesting to see how well I can support it from Darwin. I anticipate there will be a lot of naval action in this theater and I'll probably have to fight to keep shipping supplies into the area. I'd rather fight here in late 42 and 43 where I can have some LBA assistance than in the open Pacific where Mike will likely have a CV advantage over me until at least late 43. Just some thoughts for now, but the goal of targeting his oil will not waver.


I get it, this line of advance seems good on the surface. Myself, I don't care for it. As a JFB I'm well aware that this is a possible threat area and I treat it accordingly. If he has Koepang and the island to its east (Samul... something or other) it can make this area difficult to resup. IIRC its been said that supply won't freely flow to Darwin early on due to the distance and small bases along the way. Therefore much of your supply must come by sea. With the small ports in the region it'll take a long time to unload large amounts making things that much more vulnerable.

To add to that I myself like to take Darwin early in the match. Its easy enough to do if the Japanese player wants. To me its a spoiling attack just in case my opponent has the same thoughts as you. After I take it I build my defensive backstop and you can have it back at that point. No idea what Mike may do. As said above he does have a bit of a fetish with the Aleutians.

From the Japanese perspective I see the traditional Allied approach to be the most dangerous. Why? Its simple, everything I need in the 4th Naval (Marshals/Gilberts) and SE Fleet areas (Solomons) must be brought to the area. There're no supply sources, no fuel, and few bases to protect my approaches. As the Allies I'd use my subs to a large degree in this region, bad torps or not. Even if my torps don't explode my experience will rise for the time that my torps are 'repaired'.

If you can hold PM, and take that dot base at the end of the Gilberts (Tab... something)at a later date, you'll have the bases to begin to bleed Japan dry. I don't know if you've ever played Japan, but I can tell you its not easy for Japan to keep this area supplied and even more difficult to keep enough fuel to support heavy ops. You're going to have to deal with the KB no matter which way you choose.

Anyway, just a few thoughts. I realize the 'historical route' may not be as 'fun' as playing with a 'what if' as well. JMHO. YMMV.



_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 66
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/11/2019 8:59:01 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18296
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Oil. I intend to make Mike's economic constraint Oil in our game. Aside from organizing and planning some of my movements from the West Coast to forward areas, I've been filling the time while waiting for the turn with trying to lay out some longer term strategic goals. Until Mike forces me to change my plans I want to invest heavily in an attack axis from Darwin to Koepang, then Kendari, and finally Manado. Reaching, capturing, holding, and building out Manado will accomplish one of the goals of MacArthur and Halsey by cutting off shipping to and from the SRA to Japan everywhere South and East of the Philippines. They got there through the Solomons and New Guinea. One advantage of starting from Darwin, assuming I can build it and the connecting bases up well enough, is that I can bomb oil production along the way, and not just after I reach Manado. I figure if I cut off shipping South of the PI I can swarm the areas between Singapore and Japan, North of Borneo and the PI, with my subs. By that time I should have fully effective torpedoes. If I'm able to pursue this axis of attack it will be interesting to see how well I can support it from Darwin. I anticipate there will be a lot of naval action in this theater and I'll probably have to fight to keep shipping supplies into the area. I'd rather fight here in late 42 and 43 where I can have some LBA assistance than in the open Pacific where Mike will likely have a CV advantage over me until at least late 43. Just some thoughts for now, but the goal of targeting his oil will not waver.


I get it, this line of advance seems good on the surface. Myself, I don't care for it. As a JFB I'm well aware that this is a possible threat area and I treat it accordingly. If he has Koepang and the island to its east (Samul... something or other) it can make this area difficult to resup. IIRC its been said that supply won't freely flow to Darwin early on due to the distance and small bases along the way. Therefore much of your supply must come by sea. With the small ports in the region it'll take a long time to unload large amounts making things that much more vulnerable.

To add to that I myself like to take Darwin early in the match. Its easy enough to do if the Japanese player wants. To me its a spoiling attack just in case my opponent has the same thoughts as you. After I take it I build my defensive backstop and you can have it back at that point. No idea what Mike may do. As said above he does have a bit of a fetish with the Aleutians.

From the Japanese perspective I see the traditional Allied approach to be the most dangerous. Why? Its simple, everything I need in the 4th Naval (Marshals/Gilberts) and SE Fleet areas (Solomons) must be brought to the area. There're no supply sources, no fuel, and few bases to protect my approaches. As the Allies I'd use my subs to a large degree in this region, bad torps or not. Even if my torps don't explode my experience will rise for the time that my torps are 'repaired'.

If you can hold PM, and take that dot base at the end of the Gilberts (Tab... something)at a later date, you'll have the bases to begin to bleed Japan dry. I don't know if you've ever played Japan, but I can tell you its not easy for Japan to keep this area supplied and even more difficult to keep enough fuel to support heavy ops. You're going to have to deal with the KB no matter which way you choose.

Anyway, just a few thoughts. I realize the 'historical route' may not be as 'fun' as playing with a 'what if' as well. JMHO. YMMV.




Thanks for the thoughts, Paul. I know my approach is a hard one, but I do want to try something that Mike may not have had experience defending against in the past. A couple of points in response to your thoughts:

1. I'm fully expecting Mike to attack Darwin. I started moving forces to the area on day 1 to help defend it as well as get started on a massive engineering effort to improve the supply draw cap of all the bases up the trail from Alice Springs. Key for me will be getting several hundred thousand supply shipped into the area before Mike comes calling. I hope to draw some of Mike's forces into a land battle in North Oz and then overwhelm him. We'll see.

2. Once I defend Darwin, I'll have to expand it and build up as a base of operations. I am taking the long term view here and plan to really expand the small North Oz bases from Exmouth to Darwin to support lots of LRCAP for my convoys and anti shipping air groups of my own. It won't make it easy, but it will make things interesting in this theater for a long time.

3. I do plan to hit Mike in an isolated place, somewhere in the Pacific far away from the Darwin theater. The Aleutians would be perfect for this. I'd love to draw the KB back and forth across the Pacific multiple times to burn fuel. Eventually Mike will realize that I'm serious about my intentions in the SRA and concentrate there. I'm expecting that to be some time in '43 when I should be starting to get enough naval power and naval air power to hit him in the Pacific again.

Bottom line is that it will be hard fighting with Mike where ever we end up doing it in '42 and early '43. At the end of 6 or 12 months of hard fighting, I want to be able to reach out and touch some of his oil sources. If, at the end of 6-12 months of fighting, I am the proud owner of Guadalcanal, well, it's still a long way to his oil sources. Reading some of the late war AARs it's mind boggling just how much Japan can produce, especially in terms of aircraft, if the economy is run well and allowed to thrive. I do NOT want to let that happen.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 67
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/12/2019 6:29:59 AM   
mogami


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From: You can't get here from there
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Hi, Since Heavy Industry burns fuel and not oil and 50% of refineries are in SRA capture/damage the refineries. The Home Islands use resources faster then they can be imported. It is shortage of resources that shuts down production of supply. Before the SRA is secured these must come from northern Japan and Port Arthur place subs accordingly. Ships need fuel so areas without fuel production are difficult to maintain large numbers actively. Aircraft the real soul of the war require supplies. No resources means no supply. Mine Port Arthur routes and that northern port. Even without interference Tokyo will spend half the time down due to lack of resources even worse if the Japanese expand industry early. The end game is to run Japan out of supply. The Allies cannot even start this for real before 1943. Before then it is just denying early access to fuel and resources. The result is the Japanese go berserk in China

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 68
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/12/2019 9:22:14 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 5556
Joined: 9/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Oil. I intend to make Mike's economic constraint Oil in our game. Aside from organizing and planning some of my movements from the West Coast to forward areas, I've been filling the time while waiting for the turn with trying to lay out some longer term strategic goals. Until Mike forces me to change my plans I want to invest heavily in an attack axis from Darwin to Koepang, then Kendari, and finally Manado. Reaching, capturing, holding, and building out Manado will accomplish one of the goals of MacArthur and Halsey by cutting off shipping to and from the SRA to Japan everywhere South and East of the Philippines. They got there through the Solomons and New Guinea. One advantage of starting from Darwin, assuming I can build it and the connecting bases up well enough, is that I can bomb oil production along the way, and not just after I reach Manado. I figure if I cut off shipping South of the PI I can swarm the areas between Singapore and Japan, North of Borneo and the PI, with my subs. By that time I should have fully effective torpedoes. If I'm able to pursue this axis of attack it will be interesting to see how well I can support it from Darwin. I anticipate there will be a lot of naval action in this theater and I'll probably have to fight to keep shipping supplies into the area. I'd rather fight here in late 42 and 43 where I can have some LBA assistance than in the open Pacific where Mike will likely have a CV advantage over me until at least late 43. Just some thoughts for now, but the goal of targeting his oil will not waver.


I get it, this line of advance seems good on the surface. Myself, I don't care for it. As a JFB I'm well aware that this is a possible threat area and I treat it accordingly. If he has Koepang and the island to its east (Samul... something or other) it can make this area difficult to resup. IIRC its been said that supply won't freely flow to Darwin early on due to the distance and small bases along the way. Therefore much of your supply must come by sea. With the small ports in the region it'll take a long time to unload large amounts making things that much more vulnerable.

To add to that I myself like to take Darwin early in the match. Its easy enough to do if the Japanese player wants. To me its a spoiling attack just in case my opponent has the same thoughts as you. After I take it I build my defensive backstop and you can have it back at that point. No idea what Mike may do. As said above he does have a bit of a fetish with the Aleutians.

From the Japanese perspective I see the traditional Allied approach to be the most dangerous. Why? Its simple, everything I need in the 4th Naval (Marshals/Gilberts) and SE Fleet areas (Solomons) must be brought to the area. There're no supply sources, no fuel, and few bases to protect my approaches. As the Allies I'd use my subs to a large degree in this region, bad torps or not. Even if my torps don't explode my experience will rise for the time that my torps are 'repaired'.

If you can hold PM, and take that dot base at the end of the Gilberts (Tab... something)at a later date, you'll have the bases to begin to bleed Japan dry. I don't know if you've ever played Japan, but I can tell you its not easy for Japan to keep this area supplied and even more difficult to keep enough fuel to support heavy ops. You're going to have to deal with the KB no matter which way you choose.

Anyway, just a few thoughts. I realize the 'historical route' may not be as 'fun' as playing with a 'what if' as well. JMHO. YMMV.




Thanks for the thoughts, Paul. I know my approach is a hard one, but I do want to try something that Mike may not have had experience defending against in the past. A couple of points in response to your thoughts:

1. I'm fully expecting Mike to attack Darwin. I started moving forces to the area on day 1 to help defend it as well as get started on a massive engineering effort to improve the supply draw cap of all the bases up the trail from Alice Springs. Key for me will be getting several hundred thousand supply shipped into the area before Mike comes calling. I hope to draw some of Mike's forces into a land battle in North Oz and then overwhelm him. We'll see.

2. Once I defend Darwin, I'll have to expand it and build up as a base of operations. I am taking the long term view here and plan to really expand the small North Oz bases from Exmouth to Darwin to support lots of LRCAP for my convoys and anti shipping air groups of my own. It won't make it easy, but it will make things interesting in this theater for a long time.

3. I do plan to hit Mike in an isolated place, somewhere in the Pacific far away from the Darwin theater. The Aleutians would be perfect for this. I'd love to draw the KB back and forth across the Pacific multiple times to burn fuel. Eventually Mike will realize that I'm serious about my intentions in the SRA and concentrate there. I'm expecting that to be some time in '43 when I should be starting to get enough naval power and naval air power to hit him in the Pacific again.

Bottom line is that it will be hard fighting with Mike where ever we end up doing it in '42 and early '43. At the end of 6 or 12 months of hard fighting, I want to be able to reach out and touch some of his oil sources. If, at the end of 6-12 months of fighting, I am the proud owner of Guadalcanal, well, it's still a long way to his oil sources. Reading some of the late war AARs it's mind boggling just how much Japan can produce, especially in terms of aircraft, if the economy is run well and allowed to thrive. I do NOT want to let that happen.


USSAmerica,

On paper this is a sound strategic plan but there are some additional practical considerations which you should take into account.

1. Finding the engineers to build up the bases simultaneously (both coastal for LRCAP purposes and inland for overland supply flow) to Darwin will be quite difficult in the first 4-6 months. If you focus on building up Darwin there won't be much left over for any other infrastructure building in the area.

2. It is not the size of the overland bases which is the real problem in getting overland supply to flow up to Darwin. It is the combination of distance and poor transport infrastructure which impedes the flow. None of this is rectified by engineers building up the size of the overland bases. Darwin will always be dependent on sea borne supply drops.

3. LRCAP and routing your convoys to only coastal hexes will assist but they will not much stem significant merchantmen shipping losses if Japan operates Netties out of the 3 Timor island bases and stations the mini KB in the area. There is no need for the KB itself to be tied to the area to impede your resupply convoys.

4. It will take time to get off a meaningful air offensive against the main Japanese oil centres. Much quicker is to go for an early recapture of the Babo and Boela oil fields instead. A couple of strategic/tactical factors which support a land campaign are

(a) both oil fields are small and there is no collocated refinery. Plus their ports are small to begin with and have limited expansion potential. This means that most Japanese players put them at the bottom of the list of their oilfields to receive tankers. Their air and land defence is usually accorded a much lower priority than the big oilfields on Borneo and Java. They are therefore the lowest overhanging oilfield fruit to be picked and are close to Darwin.

(b) recapturing them allows for the oil deficit in Australia to be fully eliminated. Ship the oil to Darwin, using those small Dutch tankers, and then reload it onto the empty resupply convoys. Makes much more economic sense to have cargo both going to and from Darwin.

Alfred

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 69
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/12/2019 11:41:47 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 6823
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From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
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Agree completely with Alfred's assessment.

In my current AI game I ran supply up the west coast to Darwin taking losses to Netties from Timor. Getting fighter bases providing LRCAP in all of the small coastal bases helps mitigate the attrition, but won't eliminate it completely. Obviously the AI didn't bring a KB to the region which would add immeasurably to the hardships of getting supply through.


I also shipped a lot of supply from Cape Town to Port Augusta hoping it would flow up the rail/road to Darwin. This had almost no measurable impact.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 70
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/12/2019 1:16:08 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18296
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
Status: offline
Thanks for the input, Russ, Alfred, and Hans. Good food for thought.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 71
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/12/2019 2:09:54 PM   
jdsrae


Posts: 486
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From: The Land Downunder
Status: offline
If you moved HQ Australia Command to Darwin would that pull supply there?
Most of the staff officers would resign but they are replaceable!

_____________________________

Follow the Sapper

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 72
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/12/2019 3:13:38 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24380
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

If you moved HQ Australia Command to Darwin would that pull supply there?
Most of the staff officers would resign but they are replaceable!

No. Early on the daily supply cap of the bases and the road/rail network are both limiting factors. Even when/if you improve the daily supply cap of the bases (build the airfields and fortifications) the transport net is still, as Alfred pointed out, not up to transporting enough to do very much.

_____________________________


(in reply to jdsrae)
Post #: 73
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/12/2019 3:36:41 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18296
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From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

If you moved HQ Australia Command to Darwin would that pull supply there?
Most of the staff officers would resign but they are replaceable!


Moving a command HQ to Darwin will increase the demand for supply at Darwin but won't do anything to increase the supply transport capacity of the road network north of Alice Springs.

As I build up the intermediary bases to increase their supply max draw caps I will be able to increase how much supply moves each time it moves. As Alfred mentioned earlier I can't improve the road network so I can't increase the number of times/week that supply actually moves.

My hope is that base expansion will allow enough supply to move overland to the Darwin area to sustain defensive operations in the region when it's time to fight off and repel Mike's (assumed) invasion. I know the amount of overland supply will never be enough to sustain offensive operations into the SRA. I'll have to ship in supply for that.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to jdsrae)
Post #: 74
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/12/2019 3:50:24 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 25340
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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
(a) both oil fields are small and there is no collocated refinery. Plus their ports are small to begin with and have limited expansion potential. This means that most Japanese players put them at the bottom of the list of their oilfields to receive tankers. Their air and land defence is usually accorded a much lower priority than the big oilfields on Borneo and Java. They are therefore the lowest overhanging oilfield fruit to be picked and are close to Darwin.

(b) recapturing them allows for the oil deficit in Australia to be fully eliminated. Ship the oil to Darwin, using those small Dutch tankers, and then reload it onto the empty resupply convoys. Makes much more economic sense to have cargo both going to and from Darwin.

Alfred


"A)" above is hitting close to home as an IJ player. Boela and Babo oil fields are good examples of oil resource centers that are problematic defensibly. Same with Magwe in Burma. Nice to have, but-as IJ-you'd better not get used to the idea of relying on them.

Most IJ players will run small oil tankers to each of these two DEI ports and shuttle the unprocessed oil to larger collection ports. For me, that's usually Davao or Manila en route to the home islands. But these routes can be effectively interdicted with submarines or occasional surface raiders. It doesn't take the loss of many tankers before one questions the value of such dribs and drabs of oil. Why bother with them when there are so many other oil centers on Java / Borneo / Sumatra that are more defensible?

_____________________________


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 75
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/12/2019 4:46:02 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 13428
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No one has addressed the question of whether Australia has any supply to send north. In my stock game, currently in Feb. 1942, Selected Australian units have been set to draw replacements and upgrades to fill their TOE (they need the firepower improvements before going in harm's way). I have managed to ship lots of fuel to Australia so the HI is not shut down, and I am pulling resources in from Nauru/Ocean/Noumea and even Port Hedland but supply is still too low to send much north.

I am building bases from Cooktown down the east coast and up the West Coast to Geraldton so that supply will move a little further there. Then US air units and HQs start arriving and using up more supply during training and filling out. I have been using most of my western cargo shipping to haul supply to Cape Town from EC USA, and then on-map to Rangoon to feed China while I can, so not much has gone to Australia. From the East, I am running supply to numerous islands and New Zealand, with a lot of cargo ships converting to xAPs all over the map. I find I need these small capacity xAPs to haul small units to tiny/non-existent ports and to land lots of troops quickly before retreating from dangerous waters.

I will not be able to send much to Australia until the Burma Road is shut down. My own attitude to Darwin and the rest of N. Oz. is that it is not great for an Allied jumping off point (because it can be interdicted by Japan too easily) and it does not give the Japanese much effective use either - so it gets low priority. If I want to go into the DEI my jumping off point would be Perth and I would build bases on N. Oz only large enough to support fighters to cover convoys until I have a solid foothold in the DEI.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 76
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/12/2019 8:25:10 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18296
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From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
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BB, that's another very good point about actually having supply in Australia in the first place. We are currently only a week into our war and I already have a large convoy of AKs on it's way to Capetown to haul supply to Oz. Particularly, I intend to stuff as much supply into Darwin as I can before Mike starts occupying bases in the southern SRA. I'm hoping to get a few hundred thousand supply into North Oz before it becomes too dangerous. By the time the bases north of Alice Springs are built up decently I should have plenty of supply and fuel piled into the rest of Oz so there will be plenty to flow north and absolutely plenty available at Perth or the East Coast bases to load up and launch an offensive at some point in the second half of '42 or later.

I get your view on the Burma Road, but I fully anticipate Mike making a strong effort to cut it pretty early. If he tries to cut it cheaply by flanking with a smaller unit, I hope to be prepared enough to hold him off. I've around 40k of supplies unloaded or soon to be unloaded at Rangoon with Mandalay very slowly drawing them up the rail line. With Betties based at Bangkok it will soon become quite dangerous for my ships around Rangoon. Shipping into Darwin from Capetown will be safer for longer than trying to get into Rangoon after the next couple of weeks. Essentially, all of the supply that arrives at Capetown for the next 6 months or so is designated to go to Oz.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 77
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/13/2019 5:41:17 PM   
mogami


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Hi, Don't forget to allot 1 Chinese infantry corps to Burma. Vinegar Joe gets a HQ that can supply the support. It is a few months off but the corps can begin prepping now. It might be surprise to a Jap tank regt arriving at Mandalay and finding them there.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 78
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/13/2019 5:53:10 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mogami

Hi, Don't forget to allot 1 Chinese infantry corps to Burma. Vinegar Joe gets a HQ that can supply the support. It is a few months off but the corps can begin prepping now. It might be surprise to a Jap tank regt arriving at Mandalay and finding them there.

Does it get decent anti-armour values and a/t guns?

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(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 79
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/13/2019 7:00:34 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 6027
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Oil. I intend to make Mike's economic constraint Oil in our game. Aside from organizing and planning some of my movements from the West Coast to forward areas, I've been filling the time while waiting for the turn with trying to lay out some longer term strategic goals. Until Mike forces me to change my plans I want to invest heavily in an attack axis from Darwin to Koepang, then Kendari, and finally Manado. Reaching, capturing, holding, and building out Manado will accomplish one of the goals of MacArthur and Halsey by cutting off shipping to and from the SRA to Japan everywhere South and East of the Philippines. They got there through the Solomons and New Guinea. One advantage of starting from Darwin, assuming I can build it and the connecting bases up well enough, is that I can bomb oil production along the way, and not just after I reach Manado. I figure if I cut off shipping South of the PI I can swarm the areas between Singapore and Japan, North of Borneo and the PI, with my subs. By that time I should have fully effective torpedoes. If I'm able to pursue this axis of attack it will be interesting to see how well I can support it from Darwin. I anticipate there will be a lot of naval action in this theater and I'll probably have to fight to keep shipping supplies into the area. I'd rather fight here in late 42 and 43 where I can have some LBA assistance than in the open Pacific where Mike will likely have a CV advantage over me until at least late 43. Just some thoughts for now, but the goal of targeting his oil will not waver.


I get it, this line of advance seems good on the surface. Myself, I don't care for it. As a JFB I'm well aware that this is a possible threat area and I treat it accordingly. If he has Koepang and the island to its east (Samul... something or other) it can make this area difficult to resup. IIRC its been said that supply won't freely flow to Darwin early on due to the distance and small bases along the way. Therefore much of your supply must come by sea. With the small ports in the region it'll take a long time to unload large amounts making things that much more vulnerable.

To add to that I myself like to take Darwin early in the match. Its easy enough to do if the Japanese player wants. To me its a spoiling attack just in case my opponent has the same thoughts as you. After I take it I build my defensive backstop and you can have it back at that point. No idea what Mike may do. As said above he does have a bit of a fetish with the Aleutians.

From the Japanese perspective I see the traditional Allied approach to be the most dangerous. Why? Its simple, everything I need in the 4th Naval (Marshals/Gilberts) and SE Fleet areas (Solomons) must be brought to the area. There're no supply sources, no fuel, and few bases to protect my approaches. As the Allies I'd use my subs to a large degree in this region, bad torps or not. Even if my torps don't explode my experience will rise for the time that my torps are 'repaired'.

If you can hold PM, and take that dot base at the end of the Gilberts (Tab... something)at a later date, you'll have the bases to begin to bleed Japan dry. I don't know if you've ever played Japan, but I can tell you its not easy for Japan to keep this area supplied and even more difficult to keep enough fuel to support heavy ops. You're going to have to deal with the KB no matter which way you choose.

Anyway, just a few thoughts. I realize the 'historical route' may not be as 'fun' as playing with a 'what if' as well. JMHO. YMMV.




Thanks for the thoughts, Paul. I know my approach is a hard one, but I do want to try something that Mike may not have had experience defending against in the past. A couple of points in response to your thoughts:

1. I'm fully expecting Mike to attack Darwin. I started moving forces to the area on day 1 to help defend it as well as get started on a massive engineering effort to improve the supply draw cap of all the bases up the trail from Alice Springs. Key for me will be getting several hundred thousand supply shipped into the area before Mike comes calling. I hope to draw some of Mike's forces into a land battle in North Oz and then overwhelm him. We'll see.

2. Once I defend Darwin, I'll have to expand it and build up as a base of operations. I am taking the long term view here and plan to really expand the small North Oz bases from Exmouth to Darwin to support lots of LRCAP for my convoys and anti shipping air groups of my own. It won't make it easy, but it will make things interesting in this theater for a long time.

3. I do plan to hit Mike in an isolated place, somewhere in the Pacific far away from the Darwin theater. The Aleutians would be perfect for this. I'd love to draw the KB back and forth across the Pacific multiple times to burn fuel. Eventually Mike will realize that I'm serious about my intentions in the SRA and concentrate there. I'm expecting that to be some time in '43 when I should be starting to get enough naval power and naval air power to hit him in the Pacific again.

Bottom line is that it will be hard fighting with Mike where ever we end up doing it in '42 and early '43. At the end of 6 or 12 months of hard fighting, I want to be able to reach out and touch some of his oil sources. If, at the end of 6-12 months of fighting, I am the proud owner of Guadalcanal, well, it's still a long way to his oil sources. Reading some of the late war AARs it's mind boggling just how much Japan can produce, especially in terms of aircraft, if the economy is run well and allowed to thrive. I do NOT want to let that happen.


USSAmerica,

On paper this is a sound strategic plan but there are some additional practical considerations which you should take into account.

1. Finding the engineers to build up the bases simultaneously (both coastal for LRCAP purposes and inland for overland supply flow) to Darwin will be quite difficult in the first 4-6 months. If you focus on building up Darwin there won't be much left over for any other infrastructure building in the area.

2. It is not the size of the overland bases which is the real problem in getting overland supply to flow up to Darwin. It is the combination of distance and poor transport infrastructure which impedes the flow. None of this is rectified by engineers building up the size of the overland bases. Darwin will always be dependent on sea borne supply drops.

3. LRCAP and routing your convoys to only coastal hexes will assist but they will not much stem significant merchantmen shipping losses if Japan operates Netties out of the 3 Timor island bases and stations the mini KB in the area. There is no need for the KB itself to be tied to the area to impede your resupply convoys.

4. It will take time to get off a meaningful air offensive against the main Japanese oil centres. Much quicker is to go for an early recapture of the Babo and Boela oil fields instead. A couple of strategic/tactical factors which support a land campaign are

(a) both oil fields are small and there is no collocated refinery. Plus their ports are small to begin with and have limited expansion potential. This means that most Japanese players put them at the bottom of the list of their oilfields to receive tankers. Their air and land defence is usually accorded a much lower priority than the big oilfields on Borneo and Java. They are therefore the lowest overhanging oilfield fruit to be picked and are close to Darwin.

(b) recapturing them allows for the oil deficit in Australia to be fully eliminated. Ship the oil to Darwin, using those small Dutch tankers, and then reload it onto the empty resupply convoys. Makes much more economic sense to have cargo both going to and from Darwin.

Alfred


Again Alfred's input is quite spot on. I intended to return and add to my reservations that I stated above. Its been done by Alfred quite well and then some.

OTOH, I was going to add, that as it takes time and there can be a lot or resistance from the Japanese in this region it may be better to use this as a secondary invasion route into the 'Empire'. Thus stretching Japanese resources further.

As you have said you'd probably take 'til mid '42 early '43 before much could be done. Far easier to pressure Japan elsewhere before that. Besides Japan will arrive NLT about 4/42.

The whole reason I would be encouraged as a JFB in this area is if my opponent opposes me. Why? Its one area I can 'hit him where he ain't'. Now what does that mean? You are at a disadvantage in this area vis-a-vis Japan. Your resources must come from far away over difficult routes. My supplies and resources are right there in my backyard. This is like having a 'force multiplier' over the Allied player. After the 'initial empire expansion' Japan has to pick and choose battlegrounds that suit her, and this is one of them. Advantage Japan, the more you put in, the more I can kill.

Now later as pressure is applied to other areas and Japan is committed to those, her advantages here evaporate. IMHO, if you build up the region gradually over the course of '42 and launch your offensive in say early '43, Japan, while having better prepared defenses, will have trouble maintaining sufficient forces to resist on a scale that is to her advantage. YMMV.


< Message edited by rustysi -- 4/13/2019 7:26:24 PM >


_____________________________

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In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 80
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/13/2019 7:15:15 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

I've around 40k of supplies unloaded or soon to be unloaded at Rangoon with Mandalay very slowly drawing them up the rail line. With Betties based at Bangkok it will soon become quite dangerous for my ships around Rangoon.


You can live without Darwin, maybe not so without China. This is by far the more strategic location at this time of the war. Get as much supply here as you possibly can, and take some losses if you have to to do it. Keep in mind that this is why the AVG was formed. Use it here as long as possible and push those supplies into China. A mere 40k is just that, its not even an appetizer. You need to get 100's of k in there, if possible.

BTW, all that supply doesn't mean that China now becomes an offensive juggernaut overnight. Its merely there to help sustain her through the long dark hours ahead. Stay on the defensive for the most part. IOW only take shots that are clear and useful victories. Those should be very limited.

Don't neglect Ledo. Build that base and start your transport runs ASAP. No transport planes, no problem, use bombers. They probably won't be doing much that's useful at this stage anyway.

quote:

Essentially, all of the supply that arrives at Capetown for the next 6 months or so is designated to go to Oz.


IMHO, big mistake. China. What do others say?

< Message edited by rustysi -- 4/13/2019 7:28:50 PM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 81
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/13/2019 7:24:02 PM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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quote:

My hope is that base expansion will allow enough supply to move overland to the Darwin area to sustain defensive operations in the region


Pretty sure this is limited at the base itself. A max draw situation.

Besides the road to Darwin is one of the first things I cut.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 82
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/13/2019 7:30:31 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 6027
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From: LI, NY
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quote:

and I am pulling resources in from Nauru/Ocean


These two should be quickly cut.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 83
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/13/2019 8:20:41 PM   
rustysi


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Site booted me before I could get in my last response. I'll try and recreate.

quote:

I do plan to hit Mike in an isolated place, somewhere in the Pacific far away from the Darwin theater. The Aleutians would be perfect for this. I'd love to draw the KB back and forth across the Pacific multiple times to burn fuel.


First, you are aware that this op was never a feint as is believed. It was planned at least to some degree even before Midway as part of the defense zone around the HI.

Second, the fuel usage for the KB while being a draw is hardly worth the squeeze.

Thirdly, IMHO this is one area where the game fails miserably. To conduct large scale extended ops from this region is just not that doable. Even today it would be a challenge. That being said the game being a game its not that bad of a choice as opposed to trying to code in restrictions more than may have already been done (winter effects). Otherwise what player would even bother with the place. So I need to commit limited assets to a region that is a 'backwater'. Oh, well.

Now reading Mike's last AAR, its obvious he has a 'soft spot' for the Aleutians that may be a bit over the top. OTOH a heavy response from him could now open a new 'front' that poses no real benefit to you. You're both operating with the same hand tied behind your backs. In the early game do you really need another region to worry about? IMO, build and defend Dutch Harbor and the nearby airbase heavily and let him spend time and resources for an area that's devoid of any real means.

Again I reiterate that the 'historical' approach is the correct one. You by your greater means, that are growing every day, have every advantage here, while he has none. Now, that doesn't mean that the axis of approach may not change in the future. From the Solomons/NG and the Marshall's/Gilbert's ops could be switch with relative ease to a thrust out of Darwin. Especially when you've gradually constructed and reinforced the approaches while your other 'hand' was keeping him focused elsewhere. Heck by this point (say early '43) you could keep the pressure on the 'historical' path as well.

Just more food for thought, I hope.



_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 84
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/17/2019 6:52:06 PM   
USSAmerica


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Still no turn from Mike, but I exchanged emails with him and he's well, just very busy at the moment. No worries from my end as it's now cycling weather and my Carolina Hurricanes are in the thick of the Stanley Cup Playoffs for the first time in 10 years.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 85
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 4/18/2019 7:00:47 PM   
rustysi


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Fair enough.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 86
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 5/21/2019 3:49:52 PM   
USSAmerica


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Well, my Carolina Hurricanes' playoff run ended in the Eastern Conference Finals. It was a great season with most all expectations exceeded. They are a very young team and have good potential for the next several years.

Oh, I got a turn back from Mike, too.

I've only run the replay but hope to get back to work on the turn tonight. A couple of highlights from the turn:

My Brit/Aussie/Indian troops in Johore Bahru hitting the armor units that had pursued into the hex last turn and forcing them to retreat. No other Jap troops had yet advanced into the hex so the 1st Tank Rgt and the 5th Recon Rgt get to hang out in Mersing for another day. What looks like a full Japanese division did advance into the hex after that attack, so I had a bit of luck on my side. It was also just barely a 2:1 attack to force the tanks to retreat. This will likely be my last offensive action on the Malaya Peninsula for several years, but every little setback I can hand to Mike is worth it. I'll order all my troops to fall back to Singapore since the presence of the Jap division is already cutting off the flow of any more resources into Singers.

I did manage to pick off 4 or 5 more transports at Mersing with my stringbags and a couple of Dutch subs. I also deposited a few mines there from the Dutch O19 and it seems Mike found one of them with the CA Takao. She showed up on the sunk ships list, but I'll be surprised if that lasts. She's out of the fight for a month or two at the least.

Two deliberate attacks at Hong Kong reduced the forts to 0. I suspect it will fall tomorrow.

At Pearl, BB West Virginia gave up the ghost and slipped beneath the surface of the harbor, as expected. In hindsight, I really should have scuttled her last turn.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 87
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/12/2019 7:21:00 PM   
USSAmerica


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I"m not dead yet! Neither is our game.

The turn went back to Mike yesterday evening after a long process of re-familiarization. We are both hoping to get into a regular routine for a while as it always makes each turn quicker to manage when you still remember what you were trying to do last turn.

Other than my brief summary of the last turn above, there is only one thing (lesson learned) that I figured out since that post. My air HQ's mostly had 40 torpedoes added to their stocks. I mistakenly thought that they would maintain that level if supply was available at the base. Nope. To do that, you have to display the HQ's TOE and then edit the target number of fish there. Last turn, I had a number of Beasts and Swordfish attack with bombs while others did use torps. It turns out that the HQ had run out of torps in their stocks. Oh well, you can be sure I spent a bit of time to make the changes in the TOE of a few key Air HQ's.

I started the harbormaster job at San Fran of creating 2 ship TF's to load the first wave of LCU's to ship out. It's time consuming to load each LCU individually on 2 ship TF's but it ensures none are loaded onto only one ship as can happen when simply creating a large enough TF to load everyone and then loading multiple LCU's at once. They will merge into 1 or 2 large TF's after loading, depending on the direction they are heading.

I also spent some time with my designated training air groups. Some of them have recovered their fatigue and morale to the point where I am ready to get them flying so I filled them out with rookie pilots.

I still have the major housekeeping task of going through all the Russian bases to turn on fort and AF expansion. I think I can also selectively turn on replacements for LCU's while the Soviets are still not activated. Getting this started now will pay off big several years from now, but there is not an urgent rush to get it done. My goal is to get everything on this future front set the best I can by Jan 1, 1942.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 88
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/13/2019 6:27:59 PM   
Bif1961


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Glad to hear that this has not ended and look forward to seeing this progress apace.

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 89
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/13/2019 6:53:25 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 6569
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

I"m not dead yet! Neither is our game.

The turn went back to Mike yesterday evening after a long process of re-familiarization. We are both hoping to get into a regular routine for a while as it always makes each turn quicker to manage when you still remember what you were trying to do last turn.

Other than my brief summary of the last turn above, there is only one thing (lesson learned) that I figured out since that post. My air HQ's mostly had 40 torpedoes added to their stocks. I mistakenly thought that they would maintain that level if supply was available at the base. Nope. To do that, you have to display the HQ's TOE and then edit the target number of fish there. Last turn, I had a number of Beasts and Swordfish attack with bombs while others did use torps. It turns out that the HQ had run out of torps in their stocks. Oh well, you can be sure I spent a bit of time to make the changes in the TOE of a few key Air HQ's.

I started the harbormaster job at San Fran of creating 2 ship TF's to load the first wave of LCU's to ship out. It's time consuming to load each LCU individually on 2 ship TF's but it ensures none are loaded onto only one ship as can happen when simply creating a large enough TF to load everyone and then loading multiple LCU's at once. They will merge into 1 or 2 large TF's after loading, depending on the direction they are heading.

I also spent some time with my designated training air groups. Some of them have recovered their fatigue and morale to the point where I am ready to get them flying so I filled them out with rookie pilots.

I still have the major housekeeping task of going through all the Russian bases to turn on fort and AF expansion. I think I can also selectively turn on replacements for LCU's while the Soviets are still not activated. Getting this started now will pay off big several years from now, but there is not an urgent rush to get it done. My goal is to get everything on this future front set the best I can by Jan 1, 1942.

Good luck with that.




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