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SBD on patrol.

 
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SBD on patrol. - 2/18/2019 1:51:05 PM   
m10bob


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Might make a nice new screen?
Please note the "bomb" carried is actually an aerial ASW depth charge device.




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< Message edited by m10bob -- 2/18/2019 1:53:29 PM >


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RE: SBD on patrol. - 2/18/2019 1:54:53 PM   
btd64


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Yes, but a little foggy ....GP

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RE: SBD on patrol. - 2/18/2019 2:04:28 PM   
m10bob


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Being an aviation nut, the color scheme on the SBD seems to be the one from 1943, or 1945.

< Message edited by m10bob -- 2/18/2019 2:33:29 PM >


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RE: SBD on patrol. - 2/19/2019 12:17:05 AM   
jmolyson

 

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Yes, isn't it a shame that the widely deployed Mark XVII air-delivered depth charge isn't in the stock weapons database.

A good reason why unless you mod it yourself your ASW air patrols won't be sinking enemy subs.

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RE: SBD on patrol. - 2/19/2019 2:00:13 AM   
BillBrown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmolyson

Yes, isn't it a shame that the widely deployed Mark XVII air-delivered depth charge isn't in the stock weapons database.

A good reason why unless you mod it yourself your ASW air patrols won't be sinking enemy subs.


You might want to rethink your incorrect statement:





Attachment (1)

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RE: SBD on patrol. - 2/19/2019 6:45:33 AM   
Yaab


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Seems wasteful to fly an SBD with just one DC charge. I thought they had two DCs mounted under the wings. Did they drop the charge diving or horizontal?

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RE: SBD on patrol. - 2/19/2019 2:24:56 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8623
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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmolyson

Yes, isn't it a shame that the widely deployed Mark XVII air-delivered depth charge isn't in the stock weapons database.

A good reason why unless you mod it yourself your ASW air patrols won't be sinking enemy subs.


You might want to rethink your incorrect statement:






I think this is a video of a similar weapon?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omsqs7N9YiM

< Message edited by m10bob -- 2/19/2019 2:28:07 PM >


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RE: SBD on patrol. - 2/19/2019 9:05:14 PM   
jmolyson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmolyson

Yes, isn't it a shame that the widely deployed Mark XVII air-delivered depth charge isn't in the stock weapons database.

A good reason why unless you mod it yourself your ASW air patrols won't be sinking enemy subs.


You might want to rethink your incorrect statement:






I think this is a video of a similar weapon?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omsqs7N9YiM


OK.

"If you want to reflect the real world, you will mod your Devices and aircraft loads with the correct ordnance for ASW aircraft."


If your satisfied with killing subs only on the surface, that is with GP bombs, keep it as is. Note that even dive bombers had trouble enough hitting larger Japanese ships with GP bombs, let alone relatively small submarines.

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RE: SBD on patrol. - 2/20/2019 1:45:42 AM   
spence

 

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Mk 24 Mine: a homing torpedo

It seems that this weapon, a homing torpedo which entered service in 1943, was mostly used in the Atlantic. However, it increased the chance of a hit several fold and resulted in the sinking of 37 Axis submarines (31 German. 6 Japanese) with a further damaging of 18 more (15 German, 3 Japanese): all when only 240 (total) were deployed against Axis submarines. Thus the kill rate was slightly over 15%. As one can easily observe in the animations that rate is much better the kill rate of depth charges/hedgehogs and GP bombs. The Mk 24 "mine" was called a mine as a security measure. It does not appear to be a possible load for the TBF/TBM which could carry 4 sonobuoys AND two 324 lb depth bombs besides the homing torpedo. Frankly, count yourself lucky.

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RE: SBD on patrol. - 2/22/2019 10:32:17 PM   
jmolyson

 

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This is an interesting discussion so I spent a little time looking at the historical record of successful attacks by aircraft against Japanese submarines.

General Purpose Bombs. GP bombs have contact fuses and are ineffective against submerged submarines. They have rounded aerodynamic noses which can cause ricochet off ocean surface. WWII Japanese submarine damage or kills were credited to the following Allied aircraft using GP bombs by the USN. Data does not include unsuccessful attacks by this ordnance. Note that no submerged submarines were known to have been killed by this ordnance. Also note that three of the five known hits were scored before depth charges were available to arm the attacking unit’s aircraft.

Unit //Unit //Air ordnance//Date//Sub//Status//Area//Result
VB-6 //SBD Dauntless //GP bombs//10 Dec 1941//I-70 //Surfaced//Off Hawaii//Dauntless badly damaged sub
VS-6 //SBD Dauntless//GP bombs//10 Dec 1941//I-70 //Surfaced//Off Hawaii//Dauntless again badly damaged sub Sunk by destroyer next day
RCAF Sqn No. 115 //Bolingbroke//GP bombs//7 Jul 1942//RO-32//Surfaced//Off Alaska//Bolingbroke badly damaged sub. Sunk by destroyers called to scene.
TF 38//TF 38 Avenger//GP bombs//18 Jul 1945//I-372//In harbor//Off Shokaku//Sunk during harbor attack
VPB-111 //PB4Y-1 Liberator with radar//GP bombs and strafing by 0.50 caliber machine guns//5 Jan 1945//Kaiten (?) Midget Submarine //Surfaced//Chichi Jima//Sunk

Mark 17 – type depth bombs. The Mark 17 (aka MkXVII) 350lb depth bomb appeared in early spring of 1942 followed by the 650lb Mark 29 in May 1942. These could be carried on all Allied aircraft that could carry the corresponding weight of ordnance. The first warheads (explosive charge and casing) were standard aircraft bombs with rounded noses fitted with hydrostatic fuses rather than impact ones. The original rounded heads caused some ricochet problems so flat-nose attachments were quickly produced. Later production warheads were fabricated with blunt noses. Blunt noses allowed the bomb to “dig into” the ocean surface and sink at low entry angles, improving accuracy. The kill radius for the 350lb Mark 17 was 45 feet and for the 650lb Mark 29 was 56 feet. Hydrostatic fuses were used so that the blast occurred at or near the submarine’s depth, not on the surface. By August 1943 there were 14 different models with various warheads. Depth setting were 25, 50, 75, 100 or 125 feet. Depth had to be pre-set on the ground. The Mk 17 was effective even against surfaced submarines because it would explode below the target, damaging the hull and keeping it on the surface. In the later war years radar and sonobouys increased the effectiveness of this ordnance. Note that both surfaced and submerged submarines were known to have been damaged or killed by this ordnance. WWII Japanese submarine damage or kills were credited to the following Allied aircraft using Mk 17-type depth charges by the USN. Data does not include unsuccessful attacks by this ordnance. Success rate (according to Wolf, page 104) against Axis subs was 9.5%

Unit //Unit //Air ordnance//Date//Sub//Status//Area//Result
VP-42 //PBY-5A Catalina//Mk 17-type depth charges//31 Aug 1942//RO-61//Surfaced//Off Atoka volcano Aleutian Is//Sunk by destroyer Reid the next day
VP-11 //PBY-5 Catalina//Mk 17-type depth charges//29 Oct 1942//I-172 //Surfaced//South of the Solomons//Sunk
VPB-108 //PB4Y-1 Liberator //Mk 17-type depth charges//12 Apr 1944//I-174//Submerged //Off Truk//Sunk
VT-60//TBM-1C Avenger//Mk 17-Type depth charges//19 Jun 1944//I-184//Surfaced//Off Saipan//Sunk
VC-69 //TBF-1C Avenger with radar and sonobouys//Mk 17-type depth charges then Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//24 Jun 1944//I-52//Surfaced then submerged//1,200 mi west of Cape Verde Is//Sunk
VS-57 //OS2U Kingfisher//Mk 17-type depth charges//19 Aug 1943//I-17//Surfaced then submerged//Off Noumea//Sunk
VP-23 //PBY-5 Catalina//Mk 17-type depth charges//15 Sep 1943//RO-101//Submerged//In south entrance to Indispensable Strait off Guadalcanal//In conjunction with USS Montgomery and USS Saufley
VPB-142//VPB-142 PV-2 Harpoon//Mk 17-type depth charges then Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//27 Jun 1945//I-165//Surfaced//480 miles east of Saipan//Sunk
VC-13//VC-13 TBM-3E with radar and sonobouys//HVAR rockets and guns; Type Mk 17depth charges then Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//16 Jul 1945//I-13//Surfaced then submerged//550 mi east of Yokosuka//Aircraft direct USS Taylor to finish off the sub with Hedgehogs
VPB-21//PBM-3D Mariner with radar//Mk 17-type depth charges//21 Jan 1945//Kaiten Midget Submarine from I-36//Surfaced//Ulithi Lagoon//Sunk

The Mark 24 “Fido” Homing Torpedo. The Mark 24 “Mine” was actually a homing torpedo so designated for security reasons. It was carried by TBF/TBM Avengers aboard Hunter-Killer Group escort carriers and various other ASW aircraft. It was never carried by SBD Dauntlesses nor is the Dauntless a torpedo bomber. It was deployed to the VC squadrons from mid-1943 in the Atlantic specifically to fight U-boats. It was credited with 37 U-Boat kills in the Atlantic Theater. Since it used slow speed to listen for submarine noise, it could not effectively attack fast-moving surfaced targets or surface warships. WWII Japanese submarine damage or kills were credited to the following Allied aircraft using Mk 24 FIDO torpedoes by the USN. Data does not include unsuccessful attacks by this ordnance. Radar and sonobouys increased the effectiveness of this ordnance.Note that both surfaced and submerged submarines were known to have been damaged or killed by this ordnance. Success rate (according to Wolf, page 104) against Axis subs was 32% (142 launches and 46 hits)
Unit //Unit //Air ordnance//Date//Sub//Status//Area//Result
VC-13//VC-13 TBM-3E with radar and sonobouys//HVAR rockets and guns; Type Mk 17depth charges then Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//16 Jul 1945//I-13//Surfaced then submerged//550 mi east of Yokosuka//Aircraft direct USS Taylor to finish off the sub with Hedgehogs
VC-69 //TBF-1C Avenger with radar and sonobouys//Mk 17-type depth charges then
Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//24 Jun 1944//I-52//Surfaced then submerged//1,200 mi west of Cape Verde Is//Sunk
VB-109//PB4Y-1 Liberator
with radar//Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//17 Jun 1944//RO-117//Submerged//SE of Tinian//Sunk
VPB-16//PBM-3D Mariner with radar//Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//2 Oct 1944//I-177//Surfaced then submerged//Off Palau//Damaged by torpedo, then sunk by USS Samuel B. Miles DE 183
VC-82//TBM-1C with radar and sonobouys//Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//26 Feb 1945//I-368//Surfaced then submerged//Off Iwo Jima//Sunk
VC-82//TBM-1C with radar and sonobouys//Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//26 Feb 1945//RO-43//Submerged//Off Iwo Jima//Sonar contact by USS Bannon, attack by aircraft sunk sub.
VPB-142//VPB-142 PV-2 Harpoon//Type Mk 17depth charges, then Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//27 Jun 1945//I-165//Surfaced//480 miles east of Saipan//Sunk

Rockets: 5 inch (127mm) High Velocity Aircraft Rocket (HVAR). Deployed from late 1943 on some Avenger, B-25 and PV-1 Ventura and PV-2 Harpoon aircraft. Effective against surfaced submarines only. WWII Japanese submarine damage or kills were credited to the following Allied aircraft using 5-inch HVAR rockets by the USN. Data does not include unsuccessful attacks by this ordnance. Note no kills to submerged subs.
Unit //Unit //Air ordnance//Date//Sub//Status//Area//Result
VPB-128//VPB-128 PV-1 Ventura//HVAR rockets and guns//18 Mar 1945//Midget Submarine or submarines //Surfaced//Davao Gulf, PI//directed USS Ward to the scene. Ward sunk the sub.
VPB-128 //VPB-128 PV-1 Ventura//HVAR rockets and guns//22 Mar 1945// Midget Submarine //In harbor //Cebu City, PI//Sunk
VC-13//VC-13 TBM-3E with radar and sonobouys//HVAR rockets and guns; Type Mk 17depth charges; Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//16 Jul 1945//I-13//Surfaced then submerged//550 mi east of Yokosuka//Aircraft direct USS Taylor to finish off the sub with Hedgehogs

SOURCES:
Combined Fleet website
Historic Wings website
Naval History and Heritage Command website
PV Ventura/Harpoon Units of World War II, Alan C. Carey
Sunk – The story of the Japanese Submarine Fleet 1941-1945
U.S. Aerial Armament in World War II, Vol 3. Air-Launched Rockets, Mines, Torpedoes, Guided Missiles and Secret Weapons, William Wolf.



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RE: SBD on patrol. - 2/22/2019 10:35:32 PM   
jmolyson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmolyson


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmolyson

Yes, isn't it a shame that the widely deployed Mark XVII air-delivered depth charge isn't in the stock weapons database.

A good reason why unless you mod it yourself your ASW air patrols won't be sinking enemy subs.


You might want to rethink your incorrect statement:






I think this is a video of a similar weapon?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omsqs7N9YiM


OK.

"If you want to reflect the real world, you will mod your Devices and aircraft loads with the correct ordnance for ASW aircraft."


If your satisfied with killing subs only on the surface, that is with GP bombs, keep it as is. Note that even dive bombers had trouble enough hitting larger Japanese ships with GP bombs, let alone relatively small submarines.


So I did rethink my statement, which was correct if you want your game to reflect reality.

Data below indicates your game results are bogus for GP bombs.
General Purpose Bombs. GP bombs have contact fuses and are ineffective against submerged submarines. They have rounded aerodynamic noses can also cause ricochet off ocean surface. WWII Japanese submarine damage or kills were credited to the following Allied aircraft using GP bombs by the USN. Note that no submerged submarines were known to have been killed by this ordnance. Also note that three of the five known hits were scored before depth charges were available to arm the attacking unit’s aircraft. Data does not include unsuccessful attacks by this ordnance.
Unit //Unit //Air ordnance//Date//Sub//Status//Area//Result
VB-6 //SBD Dauntless //GP bombs//10 Dec 1941//I-70 //Surfaced//Off Hawaii//Dauntless badly damaged sub
VS-6 //SBD Dauntless//GP bombs//10 Dec 1941//I-70 //Surfaced//Off Hawaii//Dauntless again badly damaged sub Sunk by destroyer next day
RCAF Sqn No. 115 //Bolingbroke//GP bombs//7 Jul 1942//RO-32//Surfaced//Off Alaska//Bolingbroke badly damaged sub. Sunk by destroyers called to scene.
TF 38//TF 38 Avenger//GP bombs//18 Jul 1945//I-372//In harbor//Off Shokaku//Sunk during harbor attack
VPB-111 //PB4Y-1 Liberator with radar//GP bombs and strafing by 0.50 caliber machine guns//5 Jan 1945//Kaiten (?) Midget Submarine //Surfaced//Chichi Jima//Sunk






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Post #: 11
RE: SBD on patrol. - 2/22/2019 10:41:51 PM   
jmolyson

 

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The SBD in the original photo above appears to be carrying a Mark-17 type depth charge on ASW duty protecting surface ships.

Summary of Japanese submarine sinking by aircraft and a few sinkings assisted by by Allied aircraft. Of course no one knows how many Japanese sub attacks were detered by the presence of ASW aircraft patrols.


Unit //Unit //Air ordnance//Date//Sub//Status//Area//Result
VP-14//PBY-5 Catalina //Smoke bombs//7 Dec 1941//Type A Midget Submarine Koryu //Submerged//At entrance to Pearl Harbor//Directed USS Ward to the scene to sink the sub.
VB-6 //SBD Dauntless //GP bombs//10 Dec 1941//I-70 //Surfaced//Off Hawaii//Dauntless badly damaged sub
VS-6 //SBD Dauntless//GP bombs//10 Dec 1941//I-70 //Surfaced//Off Hawaii//Dauntless again badly damaged sub Sunk by destroyer the next day
RCAF Sqn No. 115 //Bolingbroke//GP bombs//7 Jul 1942//RO-32//Surfaced//Off Alaska//Bolingbroke badly damaged sub. Sunk by destroyers called to scene.
VP-42 //PBY-5A Catalina//Mk 17-type depth charges//31 Aug 1942//RO-61//Surfaced//Off Atoka volcano Aleutian Is//Sunk by destroyer Reid the next day
VP-11 //PBY-5 Catalina//Mk 17-type depth charges//29 Oct 1942//I-172 //Surfaced//South of the Solomons//Sunk
VCS-9 Det 2 //OS2U Kingfisher//Smoke bomb//11 Feb 43 //I-18//Surfaced then submerged//200 miles south of San Cristobal//Sunk by destroyer USS Fletcher called to scene.
VS-57 //OS2U Kingfisher//Multiple Mk 17-type depth charges//19 Aug 1943//I-17//Surfaced then submerged//Off Noumea//Sunk
VP-23 //PBY-5 Catalina//Multiple Mk 17-type depth charges//15 Sep 1943//RO-101//Submerged//In south entrance to Indispensable Strait off Guadalcanal//In conjunction with USS Montgomery and USS Saufley
VPB-108 //PB4Y-1 Liberator //Mk 17-type depth charges//12 Apr 1944//I-174//Submerged //Off Truk//Sunk
VB-109//PB4Y-1 Liberator with radar//Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//17 Jun 1944//RO-117//Submerged//SE of Tinian//Sunk
VT-60//TBM-1C Avenger//Mk 17-Type depth charges//19 Jun 1944//I-184//Surfaced//Off Saipan//Sunk
VC-69 //TBF-1C Avenger with radar and sonobouys//Mk 17-type depth charges,
Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//24 Jun 1944//I-52//Surfaced then submerged//1,200 mi west of Cape Verde Is//Sunk
VPB-16//PBM-3D Mariner with radar//Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//2 Oct 1944//I-177//Surfaced then submerged//Off Palau//Damaged by torpedo, then sunk by USS Samuel B. Miles DE 183
VPB-20//PBM-3D Mariner with radar//Spotting report//27 Nov 1944//IJA Yu-2
Type 3 submergence transport vehicle//Surfaced//Off Ormoc Bay, PI.//Plane reported sub to destroyer flotilla which sunk it
VPB-111 //PB4Y-1 Liberator with radar//GP bombs and strafing by 0.50 caliber machine guns//5 Jan 1945//Kaiten (?) Midget Submarine //Surfaced//Chichi Jima//Sunk
VPB-21//PBM-3D Mariner with radar//Type Mk 17depth charges//21 Jan 1945//Kaiten Midget Submarine from I-36//Surfaced//Ulithi Lagoon//Sunk
VC-82//TBM-1C with radar and sonobouys//Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//26 Feb 1945//I-368//Surfaced then submerged//Off Iwo Jima//Sunk
VC-82//TBM-1C with radar and sonobouys//Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//26 Feb 1945//RO-43//Submerged//Off Iwo Jima//Sonar contact by USS Bannon, attack by aircraft sunk sub.
VPB-128//VPB-128 PV-1 Ventura//HVAR rockets and guns//18 Mar 1945//Midget Submarine or submarines //Surfaced//Davao Gulf, PI//directed USS Ward to the scene. Ward sunk the sub.
VPB-128 //VPB-128 PV-1 Ventura//HVAR rockets and guns//22 Mar 1945// Midget Submarine //In harbor //Cebu City, PI//Sunk
VPB-142//VPB-142 PV-2 Harpoon//Type Mk 17depth charges, then Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//27 Jun 1945//I-165//Surfaced//480 miles east of Saipan//Sunk
VC-13//VC-13 TBM-3E with radar and sonobouys//HVAR rockets and guns; Type Mk 17depth charges; Mk 24 FIDO torpedo//16 Jul 1945//I-13//Surfaced then submerged//550 mi east of Yokosuka//Aircraft direct USS Taylor to finish off the sub with Hedgehogs
TF 38//TF 38 Avenger//GP bombs//18 Jul 1945//I-372//In harbor//Off Shokaku//Sunk during harbor attack

SOURCES:
Combined Fleet website
Historic Wings website
Naval History and Heritage Command website
PV Ventura/Harpoon Units of World War II, Alan C. Carey
Sunk – The story of the Japanese Submarine Fleet 1941-1945
U.S. Aerial Armament in World War II, Vol 3. Air-Launched Rockets, Mines, Torpedoes, Guided Missiles and Secret Weapons, William Wolf.


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Post #: 12
RE: SBD on patrol. - 2/22/2019 10:46:42 PM   
jmolyson

 

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The SBD photo is identified by Bing as follows. Pretty neat, in Edge you can right click on the photo and it gives you the meta-data.

Summary
Description
A U.S. Navy Douglas SBD-5 Dauntless of bombing squadron VB-16 flies an antisubmarine patrol low over the battleship USS Washington (BB-56) enroute to the invasion of the Gilbert Islands, 12 November 1943. The ship in the background is USS Lexington (CV-16), the aircraft's home carrier. Note the depth charge below the SBD.
Date
12 November 1943
Source
U.S. Navy National Museum of Naval Aviation photo No. 1996.253.680 [1]
Author
U.S. Navy photo 80-G-204897

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Post #: 13
More on Aircraft ASW - 2/23/2019 7:27:06 PM   
jmolyson

 

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NavWeaps website http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMUS_ASW.php

Axix Submarine Sinkings:
Atlantic/American Theaters Pacific Theater
Surface ships sank 60 60
Shore-based aircraft sank 54 3.5
Ship-borne aircraft sank 32 9.5

19" (48.3 cm) Mark 24 FIDO ASW Aircraft torpedo

Date Of Design 1941
Date In Service 1943
Weight 680 lbs. (308 kg)
Overall Length 7 ft 0 in (2.134 m)
Explosive Charge 92 lbs. (42 kg) TPX or HBX
Range / Speed 4,000 yards (3,660 m) / 12 knots
Power Electric Battery
Guidance Passive Acoustic Homing
A very small anti-submarine homing torpedo. Also known as the Mark 24 Mine and as "Fido." Homing was by four crystal hydrophones arranged around the body with simple guidance system that steered towards the loudest noise. Launch parameters were 125 knots from 250 feet (76 m).

The following is from "US Navy Torpedoes" by Frederick J. Milford:
"340 [Fido] torpedoes [were] dropped in 264 attacks of which 204 were against submarines. In 142 attacks US aircraft sank 31 submarines and damaged 15; in 62 attacks against submarines other Allies, mainly British, sank six and damaged three. Most of these submarine sinkings were German U-boats in the Atlantic, but five Japanese submarines were sunk by Fidos, one, I-52, in the Atlantic and four in the Pacific. OEG Study No. 289, 12 August 1946, is the main source for this conclusion."

Fido was first used successfully by a British B-24 Liberator defending Convoy HX 237 on 12 May 1943, sinking U-456. This was followed by a USN PBY-5A from VP 84 which sank U-640 on 14 May 1943.

Fido would have been too slow to attack the Type XXI U-boats and could be avoided by going very deep.


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