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Toss bombing - 2/14/2019 11:40:54 PM   
gargamel9


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Hi there. Im currently creating an scenario for 'el dorado canyon' and the f111 get chewed up.

- From the 1 plane lost historical result i get even 25 planes down to all them sams.
Is there any way for the planes to perform lob/toss bombing so they dont have to fly over the sam sites?

- Is there any way of knowing how to position the ecm planes to be sure that the bombers are covered?
Thx
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RE: Toss bombing - 2/15/2019 12:22:50 AM   
Raptorx7_slith

 

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1. There is no way to tell a plane to use toss bombing

2. Generally the best way to employ jamming aircraft is to have them fly down the same bearing as the SAMs/Radar and your attack planes.

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/15/2019 4:28:20 AM   
Dimitris


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Toss bombing _is_ possible, when using LGBs. Release the bomb at medium/high altitude (as the F-111Fs did when attacking the Libyan barracks), and the plane will automatically try to maintain standoff from the target area, flying roughly perpendicular to the bomb trajectory while lazing. If you watch the EDC footage this is almost exactly what they did.

Loft bombing OTOH (ie. sharp pullup from low altitude to high-toss the bomb) is not currently available.

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/15/2019 5:01:09 AM   
Dimitris


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gargamel9 < When trying to recreate historical results (or approximately so; read this post about the perils of hunting precise historical figures), it is important to replicate not only ORBATs and hardware, but also tactics, doctrine and soft factors.

* Are the Libyan SAM sites being jammed and attacked by USN aircraft at the same time?

* Are the LGB-armed F-111Fs tossing the bombs from medium altitude and staying out of the target area?

* The Tripoli airport Varks took a long runabout route entering from the south, dropping their bombs and screaming north and minimum altitude and on afterburner, is this the route you have laid out for them? (If you want to go really hardcore you can also try to somehow model the fact that most of them actually missed; see this excellent article)

* Are the routes laid out to avoid SAM belts as much as possible? (no overflights etc.)

* Are the EF-111 routes laid out as in the raid?

* Are the Varks crewed by highly-proficient crews? Are the Libyan crews mostly poorly trained? Are you achieving surprise?

* Is the comprehensive aircraft damage model enabled? (Many of the Varks took AAA hits, and the one that was lost probably succumbed to multiple hits)

These are some of the factors to consider.

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 2/15/2019 12:01:35 PM >


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RE: Toss bombing - 2/15/2019 10:36:38 PM   
gargamel9


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Woh! amazing info.
I dont think I modeled almost any of that so that would explain my ultra poor results.
Thx a lot guys

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/19/2019 9:25:27 PM   
HalfLifeExpert


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Also, if toss bombing were to be implemented, the only real reason to use it is with nuclear gravity bombs.

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/19/2019 10:19:33 PM   
ExNusquam

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HalfLifeExpert

Also, if toss bombing were to be implemented, the only real reason to use it is with nuclear gravity bombs.

Not really...toss bombing/lofting has plenty of uses beyond nukes. F-4s and Buccaneers both used it for defense suppression with sticks of dumb bombs. JDAM specifically uses it to allow for increased range/improved endgame energy.

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/20/2019 9:50:52 AM   
Filitch


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During Afghan War (1979-1989) soviet planes used toss bombing from side of mountains other than target's side to avoid mujahid's air defense fire.

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/20/2019 12:35:40 PM   
CV60


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quote:

Also, if toss bombing were to be implemented, the only real reason to use it is with nuclear gravity bombs.
Actually, the toss bombing technique was used during OPERATION EL DORADO CANYON. From Joseph T. Stanik, El Dorado Canyon (Naval Institute Press, 2003, pg. 156:

"The F-111F delivered its LGBs using a maneuver called the "Pave Tack Toss." In a typical toss the aircraft closed in on the target at high speed and low altitude. Depending on the unique ballistics of the bombs carried, the pilot could initiate a sudden pull-up at a predetermined distance from the target. The nose would climb to a specific pitch angle (usually fifteen to thirty degrees) until the bombs were automatically released. After the bombs were released the pilot would turn hard away and force the nose hard down, descending to the safety of a low altitude."

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/21/2019 3:46:48 AM   
Amnectrus

 

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Toss bombing was also a fairly normal delivery method for both dumb bombs and LGBs by the F-15E. On the Basra raid on the second night of Desert Storm, F-15Es hit a POL plant using toss bombing with Mk 82s, as described in Strike Eagle by William Smallwood, page 96:

quote:

Scott [pilot]: "Time has slowed down now and I just want the airplane to give me the pull-up cue for the loft. It seemed like it was forever; it wasn't passing fast enough. Finally I get the pull cue, I start the pull and the hammer [pickle button] is down and Larry goes, 'Scotty, when you get a chance break left'--which isn't the normal call you make. Normally a break call means you are about to die, you had better move the airplane."

Bowers [backseater]: "While he is in the loft, I'm looking outside at my right one-thirtyish and I,ve got a steady stream of bullets coming toward us. It was obvious they could see us and that it was aimed fire. This is a steady stream that is catching up with us but I know Scotty is paying attention to his job, just sitting there waiting."

Scott: "I am glued to the release key."

Bowers: "To get accurate weapons he has to track right up the line: I know that is what he is doing. And I'm like, oh, my God, they are coming on us."

Scott: "I've got the airplane in a climb at 3 Gs and at about 35 or 40 degrees and the weapons finally come off. I pull hard and am in over-G, Bitching Betty is yelling at me, and Larry is saying 'Watch the jet!' and I'm saying, 'Watch the guns, watch the guns!' and I'm pulling down and jinking--kind of S-turning our way down and then I get too far south and have to come back around. The jet was 6,000 pounds [12 Mk 82s] lighter now and it was easier to maneuver it."


This was starting from extremely low altitude. The bombing was done blind, using the SAR radar mode to generate a target map, designating the target on the map, and then flying the cues given in the HUD. If anyone played the old Strike Eagle III or Jane's Strike Eagle games, that bombing mode is fully implemented. Several other references to toss bombing are made in the book, before everyone was moved to medium altitude to keep them out of the guns. And incidentally, this is one of the best books on military flying I've ever read, highly recommended.

And in Sierra Hotel: Flying Air Force Fighters in the Decade After Vietnam by C. R. Anderegg (PDF), starting on page 63 he describes the "dive-toss" tactic that was developed starting around 1970. With the F-4, it started as an alternative to their regular dive-bombing runs, where they would lock the radar onto the ground to get the slant range, and then recover from their dive early while holding the pickle button and the computer would drop at the correct range and angle. (That is, the plane was still diving when the bombs came off, but they came off at an earlier point and with a higher trajectory than they would normally be dropped in a manual dive-bombing run.) It had mixed reliability, but was in common use in Vietnam. Then in 1974, one of the student pilots at the Air Force Fighter Weapons School discovered that the automatic system could deliver from much longer ranges than anyone thought:

quote:

[Capt. John] Jumper, an electrical engineering graduate of Virginia Military Institute, planned to fly at low altitude to the target, pop up to a few thousand feet, and then point at the target from five miles away. Once the WSO locked onto the ground return, Jumper would hold down the pickle button, pull his nose up through an extended line toward the target, and literally toss the bombs at the target from three or four miles away, letting the WRCS computer decide the proper release moment.


He compensated for the decreased accuracy by using the new "556-mod" F-4s with a bomb salvo mode (instead of ripple, the only mode available on older jets). A test is described where he and 3 other pilots released from 3000 ft at almost 5 miles range and destroyed their target. The long range tactic never saw combat use, according to the book, but it seems that at least by the time the F-15E came around, it was fully integrated in the avionics and in regular use.

Also starting on page 131, he describes the early days of toss bombing using LGBs and the Pave Spike pod (the day-only predecessor to the infrared Pave Tack pod). The author describes some tests done at Nellis that culminated in a successful demonstration before some Air Force bigwigs in 1978. With that tactic, the planes would come in very low, flying directly at the target. The WSO would be looking at the Pave Spike display and started lasing the target as soon as he saw it. At about 2 miles, the pilot would pull up only slightly (10 degrees) and loft the bomb, then dive back down and turn sharply away while the WSO kept lasing until the bomb hit. This allowed reliable LGB delivery from under the low cloud ceilings that are very common in Europe.

I have several thoughts about how all this applies to the current game engine and weapons modeling, which I should probably post in the feature-suggestions thread...

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/21/2019 4:24:03 PM   
Primarchx


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Quick tip - Command is not a flight sim.

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/21/2019 10:27:34 PM   
Amnectrus

 

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I'm very much aware of that, but I'm not sure how it's relevant to what I posted... I think you may have misunderstood me.

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/21/2019 11:27:31 PM   
Primarchx


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You posted direct references to utilizing toss bombing in two different flight sims. Sorry if I misunderstood.

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/22/2019 12:57:24 AM   
Amnectrus

 

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No prob. Yes I did reference some flight simulators, as part of the supporting evidence for my claim that contrary to some other posts in this thread, toss-bombing was actually a common tactic, not at all limited to nuclear bombs but also used for both dumb and smart conventional bombs, and actually capable of decent accuracy against point targets even with dumb bombs. And as a service to any readers who might be interested in trying toss-bombing for themselves in a simulator to see how it works.

There are a number of situations in the game where toss-bombing would be useful, such as delivering Paveway I and II series bombs from under a cloud deck, or having a couple miles of standoff range when dropping conventional bombs from low altitude.

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/22/2019 4:09:25 AM   
Cik

 

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it's of very noticeable usefulness from 1970-95 when dealing with SA-2/3/4 and certain SHORAD units. if you believe falcon, the majority of these systems are basically useless against a toss profile using LGB/GBU, whereas a medium altitude profile (what's currently modeled) will get you slaughtered or at least rebuffed as you come in at the ideal target altitude for the radar - missile complex(es)

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/22/2019 4:30:23 PM   
Primarchx


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No, I understand the utility of toss bombing. Just read about plans for LGB toss bombing from F-111Fs on the Central Front in this book ... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ZCOELM2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o02?ie=UTF8&psc=1. However LGBs have a pretty generous range in Command already and you can 'simulate' a toss bombing by taking an NOE a/c and rapidly climbing it to 10k feet (minimum LGB release height in Command) to attack. The game does not faithfully emulate aircraft maneuvering in any but relatively simple ways. A Command aircraft does not turn in the vertical, a Command aircraft does not accelerate/decelerate with altitude changes, a Command aircraft never stalls (other than damage results which results in a crash), etc.

Not that I would turn such a level of fidelity away, mind you! But like anything, the game has its' tradeoffs and limitations.

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/22/2019 5:55:31 PM   
Amnectrus

 

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Respectfully, I don't believe climbing to 10000 ft in the game is a reasonable substitute for real-life toss-bombing tactics.

First because in the game it takes an F-15E about 45 seconds to climb that high, which is a much longer exposure time than they would have in real-life.

Second because at 10000 ft your radar horizon is over 100 miles, whereas at 2000 ft it's 55 miles, so you're way more visible at the higher altitude than you would be in real-life.

And third because if you have low cloud cover, as there often was during Desert Storm and in Europe and elsewhere, it means you can't self-designate, you have to buddy-lase, which means additional micromanagement and some tactical limitations.

The minimum release altitude for Paveway III bombs in the game is 2000 ft AGL, and their range is 8 nmi, which is more like a toss-bomb delivery profile, but then the bomb still never goes higher than the aircraft, and 8 nmi is probably too far for a 2000 ft release altitude, from what I've read. I would love to see Command simulate weapon ballistics in more detail, taking into account air resistance at different altitudes, lead/lag/pure pursuit algorithms (partially modeled), and non-constant weapon speeds. I personally think it might be reasonable in the meantime to lower the minimum altitude of at least Paveway II-class bombs to 2000 ft while keeping their max range the same (4 nmi), since it seems to me that toss-bombing was a pretty common delivery method. That would have the potential downside of allowing all planes in the game to have that capability though, even if they shouldn't; for instance I don't think F-117s probably trained to do toss-bombing. So maybe it would have to be tied to the airplane's agility attribute or something.

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/22/2019 9:09:39 PM   
Primarchx


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I get it. I don't think you're going to see that for a while, though, if ever. But keep in mind, the devs have delivered the unexpected before.

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RE: Toss bombing - 2/22/2019 9:48:19 PM   
tjhkkr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gargamel9
Woh! amazing info.
I dont think I modeled almost any of that so that would explain my ultra poor results.
Thx a lot guys


Agreed; amazing info.


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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

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