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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/17/2019 1:32:30 PM   
Markiss


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I predicted the Europeans would complain if anyone suggested changing it. I must be Nostradamus.
And I don't see any reference to current politics, but your the boss.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/17/2019 1:56:29 PM   
VPaulus

 

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It has nothing to do with being European or not. Besides not all of the Matrix staff is European.
If you haven't seen any reference to current politics I suggest you to reread the thread. I'm sure you will find a couple of ones.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/17/2019 4:04:04 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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Patton should be an 8. *** This is not a political statement ***

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/17/2019 4:19:54 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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*** This is not a political statement ***

Ah, now it clicked for me. Matrix games is (mostly) owned by Europeans. People in the United States are used to thinking & saying stuff that might be implied as different by their cultures. I like Europe, especially their Tennis & Golf players who are on TV alot. I even watch Soccer which is European Football. I like the World Cup. I equally pull for every team on planet Earth.

Love Me (that's a song),
-EJR

*** This is not a political statement ***



< Message edited by ElvisJJonesRambo -- 2/17/2019 4:22:24 PM >


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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/17/2019 5:32:37 PM   
Tidavis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

The comparative ratings are pretty much what they've been for many many years and in previous releases, I don't recall changing them, but one thing that is different from before is that their rating will increase as you research Command and Control doctrine, so the US can easily raise Patton to a higher level.

Chances are, given the US's investment capabilities, that he'll soon have a higher rating than General Slim - who was certainly no clown, far from it.


According to the editor, both the UK amd USA start at 0 and can research two more levels. This is easily attainable by both countries. Given equal research Slim still comes out ahead.

Just given what little data is available, I would say the designer has a slight bias towards the UK. That's all right though. We all have bias. We should not try and say we don't.

Zhukov an 8? Maybe another thread for that question.


< Message edited by Tidavis -- 2/17/2019 5:35:12 PM >


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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/18/2019 4:11:16 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Gentlemen,

To further clarify what Bill wrote above in this thread, the ratings are consistent with what they have pretty much been for the last decade if not more.

For example, in the past Eisenhower was rated an 8, and Patton a 7, whereas in this game Eisenhower is initially rated a 7 while Patton is a 6. The difference being that in this game, you can research Command and Control, but in the past you could not. Command and Control can increase the rating of your HQs by 1 for each level attained, and so in this game Patton could all the way up to 8, whereas in our previous games he could not move from 7 for the whole game.

Essentially the ratings are completely relative to what they have always been, but in order to give Command and Control research some additional meaning in game, the start ratings have been lowered accordingly, but can possibly go higher than what they used to be in previous games.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/18/2019 9:03:32 PM   
Tidavis


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Hope this helps,
Hubert
________________________________________-


Not really. You are just rehashing "this is the way it's always been done" or you can research a higher rating.

Do you have any information on how those ratings were derived in the first place? Say like why O'Connor who's most notable success was against the Italians and who ended up in a POW camp or Auchinleck, who was replaced by Montgomery for being ineffective, have the same rating as, IMO, the best American Combat General in North Africa and Europe?


Was there some kind of +/- scale used? Victories and losses modifiers? Was it based on rank? All the higher rated commanders appear to be Marshalls or Field Marshalls at one time or another and the rest just mere Generals. That would halfway explain Esinhower's rating of 7 since a 5 Star was on par Monty's and Zhukov's rank.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/18/2019 9:41:57 PM   
gamer78

 

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Well those ratings can be related for game balance and troops possession? It is grand campaign after all not operational game.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/19/2019 3:56:41 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidavis

Not really. You are just rehashing "this is the way it's always been done" or you can research a higher rating.




Hi Tidavis

Monty has been higher than Patton for a very very long time, actually since the launch of the Strategic Command series back in 2002, and the reason I'd not considered changing it is that people are generally quick to point out if they disagree with something.

Eisenhower has also always been in the US's list of HQ builds, and that's something that I'm not aware has been challenged before either.

While I might occasionally change ratings that stand out as being wrong, based on the general's qualities, I also use the rule of thumb that if people haven't challenged the ratings in nearly two decades, then what with all the other work that goes into the game, reassessing them all and possibly opening a can of worms isn't going to be top of our agenda without good reason.

Personally I've not got an issue with Patton being higher, but as it had been that way for so long (17 years) it wasn't something considered for this release. It may happen yet though.

Bill

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/19/2019 5:01:04 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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It may be happening! There is hope!

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/19/2019 6:33:18 PM   
Tidavis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidavis

Not really. You are just rehashing "this is the way it's always been done" or you can research a higher rating.




Hi Tidavis

Monty has been higher than Patton for a very very long time, actually since the launch of the Strategic Command series back in 2002, and the reason I'd not considered changing it is that people are generally quick to point out if they disagree with something.

Eisenhower has also always been in the US's list of HQ builds, and that's something that I'm not aware has been challenged before either.

While I might occasionally change ratings that stand out as being wrong, based on the general's qualities, I also use the rule of thumb that if people haven't challenged the ratings in nearly two decades, then what with all the other work that goes into the game, reassessing them all and possibly opening a can of worms isn't going to be top of our agenda without good reason.

Personally I've not got an issue with Patton being higher, but as it had been that way for so long (17 years) it wasn't something considered for this release. It may happen yet though.

Bill



Hi Bill. Please point out to me where I suggest changing the ratings. I don't believe I have. Check that. I haven;t suggested changing any ratings.

What I have done is question why in first place. Which still hasn't been answered. Again I will will ask. Does anyone know how the ratings were derived? They seem suspect to me.

To rate General Orly, who as Commander of the Army of the Alps, put a cleaning to il duce's clock in June of 1940, 2 points less than O'Connor, who did basically the same thing a few months later. Neither of them to have an accomplishment afterwards.


How the ratings were derived is what I want to know. I would like to have a copy of it myself to see if my ratings equal the designers.

Any help here?

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/19/2019 7:15:48 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Hi Tidavis,

I set the bulk of the ratings nearly 20 years ago and they've carried forward from game release to game release. At this point I honestly can't say how I remember deriving the ratings or what system was used as this was just one of the million things that have been implemented on our end for the various games and then we move forward with other tasks. As with anything else in game, things change and we adjust based on feedback.

Hubert

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/19/2019 8:05:48 PM   
pjg100

 

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The way I look at this is that HQs don't really represent the abilities of particular individuals but rather aggregations of logistical assets, with different ratings based on the investment (MPPs) made by the player in the quality or amount of the assets. The names are just chrome. But of course I could be wrong.

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Post #: 43
RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/19/2019 8:52:27 PM   
ivanov


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pjg100

The way I look at this is that HQs don't really represent the abilities of particular individuals but rather aggregations of logistical assets, with different ratings based on the investment (MPPs) made by the player in the quality or amount of the assets. The names are just chrome. But of course I could be wrong.


+1

Keep in mind, that Patton was a corps and then army commander. His temper prevented him from reaching higher positions. Eisenhower while not brilliant, at the end turned out to be a perfect guy for the job, because he was able to hold the US-Brit alliance together. It's doubtful that Patton would be able to do the same in his place, if he for example had to deal with Montgomery. All in all, Patton as field commander had a lower influence on the conduct of war than Eisenhower or Montgomery for the Brits.

< Message edited by ivanov -- 2/19/2019 8:53:46 PM >


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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/19/2019 9:45:32 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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Yeah, but you cannot judge a man, because he has a temper. You can dislike that behavior. Everyone has a temper to some degree. In that generation of people, the management styles were forceful certainly compared to today's Snowflake Unicorn approach. People are still people. Now, if you don't like George Patton, I get that. Or if you have another favorite, that's fine too. I do feel the his results speak for itself. And Yes, Ike was calling the Shots, but not from the field, just like Churchill, and the other countries Leaders/staff. Of course there are think tanks, groups, aides, staffs, etc. Like the movie said with George C. Scott. "There goes Ole Blood & Guts, our blood, his guts."

Based on historical facts from both sides of the war, true results, Patton is an 8. At the very least 7, and I'm writing that just to appear moderate, not abrasively stating. This is not a political statement.

Are we allowed to have an online vote in the year 2019 for the gamers now?

My vote is make Patton an 8. I'm sure you knew that. I'm not even gonna bring up other names of comparison, nor say anything negative about someone else to make Patton look better. We can all see them.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/19/2019 10:40:13 PM   
ivanov


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It's not a question of like or dislike. Patton was a brilliant army commander, probably the best on the Allied side. He just didn't qualify for a higher post, like army group, because he lacked the tact and diplomatic skills. Apparently he didn't care much about the logistics either. So in the greater scheme of things, Eisenhower had much bigger impact on the Allied forces. The problem is, that in SC there's no distinction between the various levels of command or skills of particular commanders. For example Patton would have a high manoeuvre warfare skill and Eisenhower high logistic skill. But as things are for now, I think it well justified that Eisenhower has a higher rating.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/20/2019 6:25:22 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Didn't want the thread to go 0 to 60 in seconds.

....I quickly scan Monty is a 7, WTF and all the British Pervs (General Slim) in India are 7.

...you go into Snowflake mode

...but looks like the Donald has that under control.

warspite1

If you don't want a thread to quickly go sour you may want to re-think your debating style.

We all have things that we feel strongly about - leaders, ships, tanks etc - and I admire your passion for the subject, but there is a way of getting the point over. And in a strategic game there is always going to be anomalies for game balance or whatever reason.

Perhaps you should try Matrix World In Flames - Patton is the highest rated US leader in that game


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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/20/2019 7:20:11 PM   
VonCurry

 

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Might want to look at the situation in terms of gameplay. Devs can elaborate, but if the game is trying to simulate Green US troops gaining experience and turning into the big logistical and material machine they became perhaps Pattons rating is to resemble that.

Also in response to the other comments, the Germans were bad, so make them rated 0.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/21/2019 2:47:43 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VonCurry

Also in response to the other comments, the Germans were bad, so make them rated 0.
warspite1




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