Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: FITE 2 operational studies

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> After Action Reports >> RE: FITE 2 operational studies Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: FITE 2 operational studies - 2/18/2019 6:41:46 PM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
Soviet losses by 3rd June 1941


As can be seen the German T1 was not successful when it goes to eliminating enemy AF

I must have done something wrong as Germans. The total German losses after T3:
1) planes: ZERO fighters (seriously not a single one?!) and 43 bombers
2) tanks: 43 tanks (half of which were Flammpz which attacked Lvov).

What the heck?!?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by gliz2 -- 2/19/2019 6:41:51 AM >


_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 31
RE: FITE 2 operational studies - 2/18/2019 8:47:50 PM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
T4 Road to Leningrad (after movements before battles)



Just a reminder: T1 for Soviets was pretty much static, meaning almost no movement. And I play with restrictive bridges blowing house rules. Plus I do some limited counterattacks as Soviets (so not just hanging on the fence). This allows for a better performance of Germans in T1 & T2 (after that it has not so much of an impact).

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by gliz2 -- 2/19/2019 6:45:08 AM >


_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 32
RE: FITE 2 operational studies - 2/19/2019 6:49:31 AM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
Benchmark: Kristian's end of T4



Seems like Kristian is tad more efficient so far but I have a lot of reshuffled Divs coming next turn (or the following turn) and I should be able to breach Berezina river next turn. So I might do better ;)

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by gliz2 -- 2/19/2019 6:53:50 AM >


_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 33
RE: FITE 2 operational studies - 2/20/2019 1:00:58 PM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
Shortcomings of FITE2 kas observed during game):
+++Without the additional house rules of mine (and with expierienced Soviet opponent) it is quite ahistorical performances you will get in crucial T1-T8. This is because human player usually go on blowing bridges rampart, they withstand and dug in rather then being active (in reality Soviets had no clue about enemy forces unless if in contact and then this knowledge was rather local due to almost non-existing communication).
+++Still strong Soviet bias, although less than in previous iterrations.
+++Fixed weather (you know exactly what is coming when it was the unexpected that compromised the German efforts, as they were well prepared for normal Soviet winters).
This can be fixed but needs a scenario restarting.
+++Lack of communications for Soviets is still not well implemented. True they are negative modifiers but in reality any form of joined attacks (e.g. 2 divs from the same Corp) resulted in very uncoordinate efforts.
+++Commanders effects (more of a TAOW gripe). The units and their doings are generic. No commander effect is present in the game. There are some mechanic and/or modifiers but it has little impact and fell short of many other games.
+++Can players built airfields and bridges? I think unfortunately not. Which at this scale is quite absurd limitation.
+++Rail engineers: in reality there were quite effective converting over 15,000 km of tracks and repairing over 25,000km till mid Nov'41. In FITE2 there is no separation between those two I think hence it's a mixed bags in terms of simulating that efforts (and logistic relating to it).


< Message edited by gliz2 -- 2/21/2019 12:26:05 PM >


_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 34
RE: FITE 2 operational studies - 2/21/2019 12:28:29 PM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
T7 and I just exploited the Soviet feck-up I made in the Velkiye Luki region. I left it wide open (decided to push some units towards the frontline). This is example of poor command and I should order to execute myself to be patch up and executed again. Hope that the Germans will need to stop next turn for a breather.




On the 2nd thought this exemplifies what was happening in the first weeks of war. Complete chaos and Soviets rushing towards the enemy.
I've playtested the case whit Soviets setting the "blocking" units and the Germans would still got throught (but would not take Velkiye Luki). So in the end I have decided to continue with the big error scenario.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by gliz2 -- 2/22/2019 6:26:55 AM >


_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 35
RE: FITE 2 operational studies - 2/25/2019 8:02:32 PM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
T8 turned to be rather mixed bag plus most of the spearhead units are close to exhaustion and must stop next turn or the following turn the latest.

The OKH is generally happy with the tempo of the advance towards Moskov (half way through!) and remains optimistic of finishing the Soviets within next 3-4 months. On the other hand the fact that Minsk, which is an important transport hub and crucial for providing required level of supplies for advancing troops, was not tried yet was disputed by the OKH and the HQ demanded that the city must be taken in coming week.

Thanks to the spearhead of the AG Nord the railhead in the North is quite close to the front. There was 9 units of Railway engineers assigned to the railway line to Vielkiye Luki and they were able to repair almost 80km of railways in a week.

However the troops report increasing casualties and stiffening enemy resistance. The AG Sud is already struggling with the Soviet defenses around Stalin's Line.



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by gliz2 -- 2/25/2019 8:14:30 PM >


_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 36
RE: FITE 2 operational studies - 3/4/2019 6:21:49 AM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
My mistakes as Soviet commander (T1-T9):
1. First and foremost it was tunnel vision. I got too much focused on some of the areas like the Stalin's line or Minsk that I was blind in many others leaving them quite open.
2. Rushing towards enemy. Well this may sound like somethimg against the House rules but what I mean is that I have pushed too many troops forward without securing key objectives e.g. Vielkiye Luki. This has costed me dearly and might result in the ultimate collapse of the Mother Russia.
3. Too much focus paid to Southern Front. While it is now (T10) really tough nut to crack those units would do better being put in the Center.

_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 37
RE: FITE 2 operational studies - 3/9/2019 9:29:21 AM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
So I have restarted the game AGAIN The reason being that I have achieved what I aimed at: got within 100 km of Moscov by mid August and the fun went away.

Seeing all the nice FITE2 games going on I have decided to restart and to put a proper AAR. So here we start with the strategic objectives and the operational ones.

The black lines represent separation between Army Groups
The color ants-lines represent the strategic advance



HG "Nord" led by Feldmarschall von Leeb was tasked with taking the Baltics and flanking Moskov from the North, and afterwards with assaulting Leningrad. HG "Nord" had been assigned with extra Panzer and Motorized Division form the HG "Mitte" for the flanking of Moskov.

HG "Mitte" led by Feldmarschall von Bock was tasked with taking the Belarus and advancing at full speed on Moskov (which is the main strategic objective). It was made clear to Feldm. von Bock that the speed is the key and any pockets of resistance should be left for MPs and Reserve Inf Divs.

HG "Sud" led by Feldmarschall von Rundsted was tasked with taking control of Ukraine. It will be supported by the Auxilliary Romanian Armees which will have mostly mopping up tasks. Feldm. von Rundsted was instructed to push directly for Kiev, hoever should the task prove to be more difficult than expected he was given freedom to switch the axis of advance to Crimea.


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by gliz2 -- 3/9/2019 9:40:37 AM >


_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 38
RE: FITE 2 operational studies - 3/13/2019 8:42:36 AM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
So what happened to Operational Studies on FITE2?
TWO things:
1. I've came to within 50-70 km from Moscov in August.
2. I've made stupid mistakes for Soviets.

The point of this thread was to verify whether German player can achieve a "success" in 1941 and the answer is yes. But. And now comes the important part.

TAOW is a hex, turn-based game with all it's ups and downs. For FITE2 this actually creates issues that are impossible to overcome.
1. As the game is turn-based only one side can move at a time. This results in inability to simulate the shock of German attack. I think that the first 2 turns of the scenario are kind of mixed bag. The Soviet player does not have to counterattack and can move units to create a MLR on rivers without doing reconnaissance or protecting the Motherland.
As the Germans move first the Soviets gets an edge of knowing where the German axis of advance is and can react accordingly. Whereas in reality the Soviets had no clue what Germans were doing.
2.Encirclement of enemy en masse actually works against the attacker. The dug in defenders seems to not to suffer from the fact of being encircled because the chits are not in contact with the enemy. Only thing is supply but I have failed to notice any short term deterioration of units beaing encircled.
Historically the battles of Brest or Smolensk show how devastating to the Soviets the fact was. The surrender rates were more than 60%.

The problems with the engine results in problem with being able to simulate the historical possibilities.

The weather is hard-coded, the timelines are hard-coded, the events are hard-coded.

As silly as it might seem one as a German player should follow lthe best openings from the AAR section. And the strict extra house rules for Soviets should be applied.

I have tweaked the bias for Germans and with 50% extra shock and extra movement for first 2 turns I think I've hit the sweet spot where the outcome of the initial shock is well simulated. The above increase results in Soviets not being able to properly resist the initial German attack no matter what the Soviet player does. The outcome is Germans should easily achieve the maximum advance results.

_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 39
RE: FITE 2 operational studies - 5/6/2019 8:14:13 AM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
Some test runs and pondering later and I have finalized the best and yet simple (additional) house rules for FITE2.
To represent historical shock and confusion of unexpected attack (compare to the prepared Soviet defences during Zitadelle) the rule for Turn 1 for Soviet player is to skip his turn. This will result in Germans moving deep into Soviet lines and making it much harder for the Soviets to set up MLR in first weeks (thus effectively stalling Germans in first weeks if July which is absurd as the Soviets were totally unprepared for the attack).

I will start losting again. So stay tuned folks :)

_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 40
RE: FITE 2 operational studies - 5/6/2019 10:46:24 AM   
StuccoFresco

 

Posts: 397
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline
One question: i've seen you "banned" blowing bridges by Soviet Cavalry units. Why?

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 41
RE: FITE 2 operational studies - 5/7/2019 2:28:21 PM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
Historical accuracy.
1. No army ever was on a blowing up bridges spree. Just because you are defending does not mean the bridges will get automatically blown up. Normally it was only done at the sight of enemy.
2. Many times the wired bridges were not blown up because of the aggressiveness of the attacker or default of the wiring (or both).
3. TAOW allows player to blow up any bridge, any time with no probability check.

To restrict players from gowing on the blowing up bridges spree I have decided to limit the capacity to do so.
4. In TAOW you can blow up bridge which is alteady in enemy hands.

Hence I've introduced the house rule allowing only dug-in infantry (be it motorized or foot one) and HQ units to blow up bridges.
Cavalry, tanks and recon units are not allowed to do so.
As they anyhow can used splitted Engineering units from Division or Corps it is not a major problem when defending. But it limits the capability of doing so meaning the defender needs more thinkering.

PS. Actually I'm currently testing the idea of only Engineers/Pontoon/Rail engineers being allowed to blow up bridges. See the other thread of mine: FITE2 (Fall Barbarossa) .

As this thread is closed I will movevit to the FITEC2 (Fall Barbarossa) thread.

< Message edited by gliz2 -- 5/7/2019 2:31:52 PM >


_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to StuccoFresco)
Post #: 42
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> After Action Reports >> RE: FITE 2 operational studies Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.133