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RE: Protecting Invasion Fleet from Kamikaze attack? House Rules

 
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RE: Protecting Invasion Fleet from Kamikaze attack? Hou... - 1/27/2019 12:43:51 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 13677
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: modrow


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Loka is right. Kamis can get through Death Star to score hits, though losses are usually high.

Players have a real issue with Death Star. Since I'm a Death Star aficionado, I hear a lot of the grumbling.

But DS isn't the problem, it's the solution. By 1944 and 1945, Japan can have a massive air force in state-of-the-art aircraft handled by elite pilots. This air force has plenty of fuel and often may have a network of interlocking, huge bases. The result is a threat about 3,000 times what the Allies actually faced in the war. So it behooves the Allied player to adapt and take appropriate countermeasures.


I always thought the real issue is that the code cannot handle huge A2A battles well, even with adaptions to pass numbers or the like. Or is this a non-issue by now?

Hartwig

At the time the problem came up it was an issue, but the good folks at Matrix looked at it and found that the Air Interception algorithm only allowed for something like 60 combats in a single strike. Not enough when over 1000 aircraft on each side were mixing it up. They upped the limit and there has not been the same issue with attacking bombers getting through massive CAP en masse. A few may straggle through but not large, coherent strikes.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to modrow)
Post #: 31
RE: Protecting Invasion Fleet from Kamikaze attack? Hou... - 3/23/2019 9:32:41 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2095
Joined: 9/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
At the time the problem came up it was an issue, but the good folks at Matrix looked at it and found that the Air Interception algorithm only allowed for something like 60 combats in a single strike. Not enough when over 1000 aircraft on each side were mixing it up. They upped the limit and there has not been the same issue with attacking bombers getting through massive CAP en masse. A few may straggle through but not large, coherent strikes.

I am currently sandboxing kamikazes, looking on strikes against a Hellcat Death Star and using different airframes and altitudes for strike packages. Had some entertaining combat reports with bombers getting through, and can't see the reason why they did. I even tuned it to the optimal setup for the defenders, yet bombers are practically untouched despite overwhelming numerical advantage of the Allies...
(48x3 kamis escorted by 81x2 A6M8 against 36x13 F6F-5 on 90% CAP at same altitude as kamis)

------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Townsville at 92,144

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 30,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 162
D4Y4 Judy x 86

Allied aircraft
F6F-5 Hellcat x 432

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 7 destroyed
D4Y4 Judy: 43 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Bunker Hill
CV Wasp, Kamikaze hits 7, and is sunk
CV Hornet, Kamikaze hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
CV Franklin, Kamikaze hits 8, and is sunk
CV Hancock, Kamikaze hits 7, and is sunk
CV Saratoga
CV Enterprise, Kamikaze hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Essex, Kamikaze hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Intrepid
CV Ticonderoga, Kamikaze hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Randolph, Kamikaze hits 1
CV Yorktown, Kamikaze hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Lexington, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
43 x D4Y4 Judy flying as kamikaze (Hakata Ku R-1 / 1st Air)
Kamikaze: 1 x 800 kg GP Bomb
43 x D4Y4 Judy flying as kamikaze (Hakata Ku R-2 / 1st Air)
Kamikaze: 1 x 800 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-2 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 23000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
15 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-5 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 25000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
18 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-6 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 20000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
18 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-8 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 21000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-71 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 22000 and 30000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-9 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 24000 and 30000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
15 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-18 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 24000 and 32000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-11 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 25000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-12 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 26000 and 33000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-13 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 24000 and 32000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
15 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-7 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 26000 and 32000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-80 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 21000 and 33000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Townsville at 92,144

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 76 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D4Y4 Judy x 43

Allied aircraft
F6F-5 Hellcat x 426

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y4 Judy: 22 destroyed

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Kamikaze hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Randolph, Kamikaze hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Saratoga, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire
CV Hornet, Kamikaze hits 2, and is sunk
CV Intrepid, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire
CV Bunker Hill, Kamikaze hits 2
CV Yorktown, Kamikaze hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
43 x D4Y4 Judy flying as kamikaze (Hakata Ku R-3 / 1st Air)
Kamikaze: 1 x 800 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-2 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
35 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 25000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
VF-5 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
27 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 20000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
VF-6 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
27 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 21000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-8 with F6F-5 Hellcat (5 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
20 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 21000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
VF-71 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 15 on standby, 0 scrambling)
21 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 20000 and 30000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
30 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 24000 and 32020.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
VF-18 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
23 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 24000 and 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
VF-11 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
27 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 26000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
VF-12 with F6F-5 Hellcat (3 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
21 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 26000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
VF-13 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
30 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 18000 and 32000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
VF-7 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
23 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 25000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
VF-80 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
24 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 22060 and 33000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Townsville at 92,144

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 104
D4Y4 Judy x 14

Allied aircraft
F6F-5 Hellcat x 35

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 3 destroyed
D4Y4 Judy: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Bunker Hill
CV Intrepid, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Saratoga, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D4Y4 Judy flying as kamikaze (Hakata Ku R-1 / 1st Air)
Kamikaze: 1 x 800 kg GP Bomb
5 x D4Y4 Judy flying as kamikaze (Hakata Ku R-2 / 1st Air)
Kamikaze: 1 x 800 kg GP Bomb
5 x D4Y4 Judy flying as kamikaze (Hakata Ku R-3 / 1st Air)
Kamikaze: 1 x 800 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-11 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 19000 and 33000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 3/23/2019 9:35:32 PM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 32
RE: Protecting Invasion Fleet from Kamikaze attack? Hou... - 3/23/2019 10:35:23 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 8785
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
The problem for the CAP is that all of the planes are on standby. None are currently airborne.

Why were they on standby? What was the percentage setting?

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 33
RE: Protecting Invasion Fleet from Kamikaze attack? Hou... - 3/23/2019 11:44:38 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2095
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
The problem for the CAP is that all of the planes are on standby. None are currently airborne.

Why were they on standby? What was the percentage setting?

Business as usual. 90% CAP at the same altitude as the incoming strike, 0 range, clear weather 1st turn, no-surprize setting (2nd turn paints the same picture BTW). "0 airborne, X on standby" is often like that for the first clash of the day, does not prevent effective CAP in most cases. "Time to reach interception" is telling.

JFBs, never lose your hoap!

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 34
RE: Protecting Invasion Fleet from Kamikaze attack? Hou... - 3/24/2019 12:55:17 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 13677
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
The problem for the CAP is that all of the planes are on standby. None are currently airborne.

Why were they on standby? What was the percentage setting?

Business as usual. 90% CAP at the same altitude as the incoming strike, 0 range, clear weather 1st turn, no-surprize setting (2nd turn paints the same picture BTW). "0 airborne, X on standby" is often like that for the first clash of the day, does not prevent effective CAP in most cases. "Time to reach interception" is telling.

JFBs, never lose your hoap!

Were all those Allied CVs in a single TF? That is unrealistic and imposes penalties for coordination, possibly severe penalties with that many aircraft in one TF.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 35
RE: Protecting Invasion Fleet from Kamikaze attack? Hou... - 3/24/2019 12:04:46 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 8785
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
The problem for the CAP is that all of the planes are on standby. None are currently airborne.

Why were they on standby? What was the percentage setting?

Business as usual. 90% CAP at the same altitude as the incoming strike, 0 range, clear weather 1st turn, no-surprize setting (2nd turn paints the same picture BTW). "0 airborne, X on standby" is often like that for the first clash of the day, does not prevent effective CAP in most cases. "Time to reach interception" is telling.

JFBs, never lose your hoap!

Were all those Allied CVs in a single TF? That is unrealistic and imposes penalties for coordination, possibly severe penalties with that many aircraft in one TF.


Possible penalties (remember that the penalty on coordination is not guaranteed) don't apply to CAP, though.


That is an odd result for 90% CAP at 0 range. All of them being on standby, rather than airborne, is extremely unexpected.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 36
RE: Protecting Invasion Fleet from Kamikaze attack? Hou... - 3/25/2019 9:23:27 AM   
wegman58

 

Posts: 458
Joined: 12/28/2013
From: Edina, MN (FROM the Bronx)
Status: offline
Also - why none shot down by AA?

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 37
RE: Protecting Invasion Fleet from Kamikaze attack? Hou... - 3/25/2019 10:54:37 AM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2095
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
What I see in the consecutive tests using the same geo setup is the discrepancy in CV CAP performance. Either CAP does the job just fine and almost no hits are registered, or the CAP is grossly inadequate letting most of the bombers through resulting in multiple hits. Even had cases of kamis flying in w/o escorts and getting 40% hit rate.
So far I cannot pinpoint the factors with certainty, but higher-flying kamis tend to get through much more often. E.g. D4Y4s flying their ceiling at 27k were through almost always, even when CAP altitude is set at or higher than 27k

Note: my kami pilots are in the 80 xp range because one cannot set pilot skills in the scenario and hence cannot get respectable levels of LowNav w/o xp buff. So the hit rate would be inflated compared to the real game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wegman58
Also - why none shot down by AA?

That one turns out consistently ineffective against kamis in my tests - low single digits shot down by flak no matter the settings. I used all kinds of DS TFs, from early models (<10k TF AA value) to late upgrades with escorting BBs/DDs (17k+ AA values), setting the game date in 44 as well as 41.

(in reply to wegman58)
Post #: 38
RE: Protecting Invasion Fleet from Kamikaze attack? Hou... - 3/26/2019 12:06:51 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2310
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline
GetAssista - Interesting tests. Scary for us Allied players!

Is this stock or DBB/other mod?

Also, what about layering your CAP from 5k on up?

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 39
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