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2.9.5 Why out of supply?

 
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2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/14/2019 3:51:50 AM   
Gar-Dog


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Quick question - why can't Guderian trace supply to Rundstedt (who is in supply)?

I imagined it would be From Guderian (Supply Range 2), tracing one to the rail NW of him. Then it follows the rail to Rundstedt, who is in supply through Kabul and another HQ to Russia.

Is it that Germany can't trace through Japanese territory? Or is this a bug?




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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/14/2019 3:55:06 AM   
Gar-Dog


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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/14/2019 5:48:57 AM   
BrianJH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gar-Dog

Quick question - why can't Guderian trace supply to Rundstedt (who is in supply)?

I imagined it would be From Guderian (Supply Range 2), tracing one to the rail NW of him. Then it follows the rail to Rundstedt, who is in supply through Kabul and another HQ to Russia.

Is it that Germany can't trace through Japanese territory? Or is this a bug?




No, Guderian cannot use a Rail Supply path to Rundstedt, a secondary supply source. Once you start tracing supply by rail you have to trace it to a Primary Supply source somewhere. Of course, any supply path (including a rail supply path) can be traced overseas, but only once.

That said, I beleive Guderian should be in supply!

1 hex to the Rail, NW of Guderian. Then by rail via Delhi to Calcutta. Then by Sea via Bay of Bengal, South China Sea, China Sea, Sea of Japan, to Vladivostok (2nd Hex). Continuing by rail from Vladivostok, all the way back to Germany.

The reason, I suspect why it isn't working, is perhaps it's trying to use the same rail path as Rundstedt. (hit F8 and you can check this). It, for some reason, lands it's sea supply leg in Foochow, and then uses its 4 hex limit overland to a rail hex near Nanchang! If the program is trying to use this same supply path for Guderian it will be to far, as Guderian only has a 2 hex supply path limit due to rain. I suspect the code has an internal limit as to how long (or how far) it checks for valid supply paths, for reasons of game speed and performance, and given your particular situation its exceeding this limit.

Brian.



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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/14/2019 5:54:31 AM   
Courtenay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianJH


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gar-Dog

Quick question - why can't Guderian trace supply to Rundstedt (who is in supply)?

I imagined it would be From Guderian (Supply Range 2), tracing one to the rail NW of him. Then it follows the rail to Rundstedt, who is in supply through Kabul and another HQ to Russia.

Is it that Germany can't trace through Japanese territory? Or is this a bug?




No, Guderian cannot use a Rail Supply path to Rundstedt, a secondary supply source. Once you start tracing supply by rail you have to trace it to a Primary Supply source somewhere. Of course, any supply path (including a rail supply path) can be traced overseas, but only once.

That said, I beleive Guderian should be in supply!

1 hex to the Rail, NW of Guderian. Then by rail via Delhi to Calcutta. Then by Sea via Bay of Bengal, South China Sea, China Sea, Sea of Japan, to Vladivostok (2nd Hex). Continuing by rail from Vladivostok, all the way back to Germany.

The reason, I suspect why it isn't working, is perhaps it's trying to use the same rail path as Rundstedt. (hit F8 and you can check this). It, for some reason, lands it's sea supply leg in Foochow, and then uses its 4 hex limit overland to a rail hex near Nanchang! If the program is trying to use this same supply path for Guderian it will be to far, as Guderian only has a 2 hex supply path limit due to rain. I suspect the code has an internal limit as to how long (or how far) it checks for valid supply paths, for reasons of game speed and performance, and given your particular situation its exceeding this limit.

Brian.




I agree that the problem is an internal limit, but I suspect the problem is the Transsiberian railroad. MWiF does not like tracing supply the whole length of it. I have had problems with the US not being able to trace to a French city along the railroad after Germany was conquered.

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/14/2019 6:09:48 AM   
BrianJH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

I agree that the problem is an internal limit, but I suspect the problem is the Transsiberian railroad. MWiF does not like tracing supply the whole length of it. I have had problems with the US not being able to trace to a French city along the railroad after Germany was conquered.


Must be very marginal then, as that's pretty much how Rundstedt is tracing its supply path, albeit, not through Vlad, but via Manchuria, no reason why Guderian couldn't use this same path either, just not through Foochow, the way Rundstedt has. The example I gave, was one of many possibilities.

Brian.


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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/15/2019 2:24:31 AM   
brian brian

 

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Maybe the program has started reading Man in the High Castle

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/15/2019 3:44:33 AM   
Gar-Dog


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quote:

Once you start tracing supply by rail you have to trace it to a Primary Supply source somewhere.


Wow, that makes the Germans lucky they could link up to the Japanese so quickly with only one supply unit... I missed that a tertiary supply line can't use any rails. Luck of fools for the Germans, except the bug!

The million dollar question, why Foochow and not Kwangngai, Canton, Hong Kong, or Vladivostok? That's rhetorical i guess - so this is the bug.

As a check:
Through nefarious methods, I teleported Guderian two hexes Northeast, directly onto the rail line but still in the wet (2 hex basic path limit). At that point, he should be able to trace supply to any Indian port, to China/Manchuria/Vladivostok, and back to German civilization - but he's still out of supply.

-----

BrianBrian, yea, it's getting dicey for survival of the Allies. Poor Allied support of Russia, combined with half the BEF at Dunkirk, a few bad rolls in Egypt, and unlucky early weather in China... The Japanese fleet now for the first time though has to face the full American carrier fleet; they had uncontested supremacy in the Pacific long enough to very nearly put India out as you can see. Japanese and Italian navies have fought together more than once! Last turn the Japanese had exceptionally bad search rolls (4 misses on a 5 or less), or a few more British carriers might have been put to bed on the Indian Ocean seafloor.

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/15/2019 5:05:57 PM   
Centuur


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It's a bug. Guderian should be able to trace to supply using the Japanese convoys and than across China/USSR to Germany...

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/16/2019 2:51:25 AM   
Gar-Dog


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I suppose I'll edit in a Supply Unit too for now....

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/16/2019 3:01:04 AM   
paulderynck


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I think with Germans and Japanese extending hands of greeting across a river in India, most likely the secret "game balancing" code has been activated...

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/17/2019 7:29:22 PM   
Orm


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I think that there is a limit on the number of hexes/sea areas that may be used for a primary (rail) supply link. I seem to recall that the limit was 60 hexes (or sea areas). But that was a long time ago and the number might have changed (or I might remember wrongly).

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/17/2019 9:49:23 PM   
paulderynck


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I recall that as well and that it was 60, as the objective was not to have super-lengthy supply calculation times. That number may have changed as Steve did optimize a lot of the lengthy times out of the code.

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/18/2019 10:31:12 PM   
Gar-Dog


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I think that there is a limit on the number of hexes/sea areas that may be used for a primary (rail) supply link. I seem to recall that the limit was 60 hexes (or sea areas). But that was a long time ago and the number might have changed (or I might remember wrongly).


I don't think this code is live... I had Manstein in Krasnoyarsk (!) and he was in supply.



quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I think with Germans and Japanese extending hands of greeting across a river in India, most likely the secret "game balancing" code has been activated...


I think this is a much more likely reason!

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/19/2019 4:42:06 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gar-Dog

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I think that there is a limit on the number of hexes/sea areas that may be used for a primary (rail) supply link. I seem to recall that the limit was 60 hexes (or sea areas). But that was a long time ago and the number might have changed (or I might remember wrongly).


I don't think this code is live... I had Manstein in Krasnoyarsk (!) and he was in supply.


Could Manstein have traced a sea route to the west first?

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/24/2019 1:08:11 AM   
Gar-Dog


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No, the west is not quite there. Arabian sea is still CW dominated, just barely, and the route through Afghanistan I was counting on apparently doesn't work when you can only use one rail route.

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 6/15/2019 3:16:14 PM   
Gar-Dog


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quote:

Wow, that makes the Germans lucky they could link up to the Japanese so quickly with only one supply unit... I missed that a tertiary supply line can't use any rails. Luck of fools for the Germans, except the bug!

The million dollar question, why Foochow and not Kwangngai, Canton, Hong Kong, or Vladivostok? That's rhetorical i guess - so this is the bug.


Just checked with 3.0.2.1, and the "German logistics command recommended" supply route through Foochow still seems to be in place. Seriously limits the German fun in India.




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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 8/12/2019 3:53:27 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gar-Dog

quote:

Wow, that makes the Germans lucky they could link up to the Japanese so quickly with only one supply unit... I missed that a tertiary supply line can't use any rails. Luck of fools for the Germans, except the bug!

The million dollar question, why Foochow and not Kwangngai, Canton, Hong Kong, or Vladivostok? That's rhetorical i guess - so this is the bug.


Just checked with 3.0.2.1, and the "German logistics command recommended" supply route through Foochow still seems to be in place. Seriously limits the German fun in India.




Since Rundstedt has to use 3 non-rail moves to reach primary supply, it is only because he is in Fine weather that he can trace rail supply. Guderian is in Rain and only has 2 non-rail hexes available for tracing rail supply.

The program is correct and length of path is not an issue in this case.

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 11/11/2019 11:59:53 PM   
Gar-Dog


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quote:

The program is correct and length of path is not an issue in this case.


But why would it route through Foochow instead of, say, Shanghai which puts them in supply?

I've added another zipfile with the current situation (I've only played a turn since then), which should again be routing through Shanghai, or Canton, or Seoul, or Port Arthur, or Tsingtao... not Foochow... Why is the program routing through the worst possible port?

Running version 3.0.4 now.

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< Message edited by Gar-Dog -- 11/12/2019 12:00:30 AM >

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 12/1/2019 8:44:08 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gar-Dog

quote:

The program is correct and length of path is not an issue in this case.


But why would it route through Foochow instead of, say, Shanghai which puts them in supply?

I've added another zipfile with the current situation (I've only played a turn since then), which should again be routing through Shanghai, or Canton, or Seoul, or Port Arthur, or Tsingtao... not Foochow... Why is the program routing through the worst possible port?

Running version 3.0.4 now.

Apparently your attachment with the new saved game was lost in the recent problems Matrix/Slitherine had with their database. When I try to download it I get a message that the file was not found.

If you reload it, I'll take another look.


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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 12/1/2019 9:22:46 PM   
Gar-Dog


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Attached here.

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 12/1/2019 9:23:43 PM   
Gar-Dog


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With a graphic:
- Shows Rundstedt tracing supply through Foochow from Calcutta (note Shanghai is in the same SZ as Foochow, on rail)
- Shows Guderian 1 hex from Hyderabad, which should go directly to Calcutta then by sea to Shanghai
Running 3.0.4, bug is the same as it was in 2.9.5.

Thanks for checking!




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< Message edited by Gar-Dog -- 12/1/2019 9:27:00 PM >

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 12/20/2019 4:09:34 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Notice that Rundstedt use 4 non-rail hexes (Basic Path hexes) to get to supply. Guderian would use 5, since he has to use one to reach a hex containing a rail line. Hence, Guderian is OOS.

The program is correct, since only 4 Basic Path hexes can be in a supply line between units and a supply source, and between linked supply sources.

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 12/20/2019 8:07:21 PM   
gw15


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So the Japs and Germany meet in India! Wow. Really stressing the program.

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/5/2020 6:02:02 PM   
Gar-Dog


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Notice that Rundstedt use 4 non-rail hexes (Basic Path hexes) to get to supply. Guderian would use 5, since he has to use one to reach a hex containing a rail line. Hence, Guderian is OOS.

The program is correct, since only 4 Basic Path hexes can be in a supply line between units and a supply source, and between linked supply sources.


But the million dollar question:
Why not trace to SHANGHAI or CANTON instead of FOOCHOW? Using FOOCHOW is the program error. These other major, rail-connected ports are in the same SZ, and also Axis-controlled; China is conquered. It's the worst possible port to trace supply to! Why not this supply route?






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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/7/2020 8:11:24 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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You would still have to go overseas - which requires a 5th Basic Supply Path Hex.

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 1/8/2020 2:34:59 AM   
Gar-Dog


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
You would still have to go overseas - which requires a 5th Basic Supply Path Hex.


How about this, for two basic hexes (not five):
Guderian: India [89,97] (desert)
1R Hyderabad [88,97] (clear)
Rail India [88,98]
...
Rail Calcutta [92,116]
Sea Bay of Bengal
Sea S. China Sea
2R Canton [92,142] (or one more Sea to China Sea, then Port Arthur, Seoul, or Tsingtao - any except Foochow)
Rail China [91,142]
... All the way to Germany through Chengchow, Peking, Harbin, Chita, Irkutsk, Krasnoyarsk, Moscow...
Rail Konigsberg [46,45]

Uses one sea leg and 2 hexes Basic Supply as far as I can tell. Both China and Russia are conquered in this game.

Am I missing something?

< Message edited by Gar-Dog -- 1/8/2020 2:35:29 AM >

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 3/4/2020 3:46:06 AM   
Gar-Dog


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I'm sorry, but I don't seem to be getting a direct answer.

The program is correctly calculating that supply through Foochow would not work. I have no argument with that. If Guderian traces supply to Hyderabad (1 basic), to Calcutta overseas, into Foochow (+1 basic, +3 to get to rail = 5 total), he's out of supply. No argument.

However, Guderian can trace supply to Hyderabad (1 basic), to Calcutta overseas, into Shanghai or Hong Kong (+1 basic = 2 total) instead, there are only two basic supply hexes used and he is in supply. The question is, why does the supply routing not go through one of these shorter paths?

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 3/22/2020 3:33:21 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gar-Dog

I'm sorry, but I don't seem to be getting a direct answer.

The program is correctly calculating that supply through Foochow would not work. I have no argument with that. If Guderian traces supply to Hyderabad (1 basic), to Calcutta overseas, into Foochow (+1 basic, +3 to get to rail = 5 total), he's out of supply. No argument.

However, Guderian can trace supply to Hyderabad (1 basic), to Calcutta overseas, into Shanghai or Hong Kong (+1 basic = 2 total) instead, there are only two basic supply hexes used and he is in supply. The question is, why does the supply routing not go through one of these shorter paths?

Yes, that should work.

The code does have a limit on how far it will search to find a primary supply source.

I tried moving Guderian onto the rail line and the program still reported him as OOS.

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RE: 2.9.5 Why out of supply? - 4/14/2020 11:36:56 PM   
Gar-Dog


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Thanks for looking into it Shannon.

I understand this is an atypical game! Part of the reason I kept going was to stress-test the program, not stress the people...

With the "default" carrier air fix, maybe the Japanese can facilitate German supply via the Red sea now and bypass that bug... Their carriers kept running into that bug around the Indian Ocean at the same time. Was too much work to edit in a new supply unit every turn plus manually execute & then edit the carrier battles.

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