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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle

 
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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/17/2018 1:14:41 AM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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Golly that is complex and intense. Thank you for making that tutorial.
What do you use to put those arrows and circles on the map? I have Paint Shop Pro but don't know how to make nice neat arrows & circles like that.
Were you a company commander in the army?
You use the HS units like Patton used recon vehicles. Patton ordered recon units "Drive down this road until you blow up!"

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/17/2018 3:53:37 AM   
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You really did advance well and got melees cooking inside the factories.
So you are definitely a master at this game, a kind of Lock n Load Sun Tzu.
I'm wondering about this game in general, whether the shooting, spotting, and support aspects are only bells & whistles on a melee based game? I think I really misunderstood this game until seeing this tutorial and your earlier advice about melee.

< Message edited by GiveWarAchance -- 12/17/2018 3:55:52 AM >

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/17/2018 8:21:26 PM   
asl3d


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

Golly that is complex and intense. Thank you for making that tutorial.
What do you use to put those arrows and circles on the map? I have Paint Shop Pro but don't know how to make nice neat arrows & circles like that.
Were you a company commander in the army?
You use the HS units like Patton used recon vehicles. Patton ordered recon units "Drive down this road until you blow up!"


Arrows and circles on the map:

I use the normal Paint program provided by Windows. You just have to use the form menu at the top of the interface.

Patton:

I did not know that the famous general had said "Drive down this road until you blow up!", But it is precisely that.




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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/17/2018 8:43:06 PM   
asl3d


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

You really did advance well and got melees cooking inside the factories.
So you are definitely a master at this game, a kind of Lock n Load Sun Tzu.
I'm wondering about this game in general, whether the shooting, spotting, and support aspects are only bells & whistles on a melee based game? I think I really misunderstood this game until seeing this tutorial and your earlier advice about melee.


Melee based game:

I am an Advanced Squad Leader (ASL) player, and I learned how to play this wonderful boardgame by reading the games played by many good and experienced players, like Tom Repetti, Bill Conner, Mark Nixon, and many more. I have also learned their old "dirty" tricks. This has helped me to learn to play HoS, because the games are pretty similar, although they are not the same.
Regarding the Close Combat, it is necessary to specify a little. If you are on the attack, both in ASL and here, appeal to Close Combat is a solution, undoubtedly risky, but a solution. But if you're on the defensive, you just have to use the defensive fire "intelligently" to keep the enemy forces from overwhelming you.
If there are few units, the Close Combat does not make sense. You have to maneuver in the field, gain the advantages offered by the terrain, create ambushes, and all the variety of resources offered by combat in the Second World War.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/18/2018 12:15:12 AM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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Thanks for detailed answers.
I did not know Windows had a paint program. I have Windows 7
Those players you mentioned, they used to play this Lock n Load game? Do they still play. I am actually new to this game so I wasn't around in its heyday.

I used to play SSG games like Decisive Battle Normandy and Italy and Kharkov games. They are quite good but sadly forgotten by the masses who moved onto stuff like Hearts of Iron 4 and Panzer Corps and the Gary Grisby games I guess but I also like Panzer Corps and Grisby's game A World Divided which has a deadly strong AI and beefed up campaigns for single player for people like me who are not really into multiplayer but I used to play the SSG games by email cause they had almost no dirty tricks to exploit so the combat was honest.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/18/2018 7:00:23 PM   
asl3d


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

Thanks for detailed answers.
I did not know Windows had a paint program. I have Windows 7
Those players you mentioned, they used to play this Lock n Load game? Do they still play. I am actually new to this game so I wasn't around in its heyday.

I used to play SSG games like Decisive Battle Normandy and Italy and Kharkov games. They are quite good but sadly forgotten by the masses who moved onto stuff like Hearts of Iron 4 and Panzer Corps and the Gary Grisby games I guess but I also like Panzer Corps and Grisby's game A World Divided which has a deadly strong AI and beefed up campaigns for single player for people like me who are not really into multiplayer but I used to play the SSG games by email cause they had almost no dirty tricks to exploit so the combat was honest.


Paint:
I have Windows 8, but surely Windows 7 also has it. Its a classic.

Players:
Tom Repetti, Bill Conner, Mark Nixon, and many more, are part of the "Hall of Fame" of the famous boardgame Advanced Squad Leader, at least for me.
I do not know if they keep playing and I do not even know if they know this game. Many already have a certain age and I do not know if they still live. Some of them founded some of the ASL conventions that are still celebrated all over the world. Also, they are very funny.

I also have some SSG game and I think they are pretty good, although of a very different style and dimension from Heroes of Stalingrad or Advanced Squad Leader. They are another type of games.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/19/2018 2:00:42 AM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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Okay so those gentlemen you mentioned are famous ASL people. I wish I had played that game too. I only played Axis & Allies but played it an awful lot to be honest. I have a newer version of it but don't know anyone now who likes wargames of the board type.

The SSG games are what I'm used to. I like the operational level with battalions and regiments that make up divisions. It is fun preparing complex attacks and then seeing how they cook. I used to play Steel Panthers (I think it is called that) which was squad based too but no where near as strict and difficult as Lock n Load. I really liked the stuff that Wild Bill made especially his eastern campaign I think Korsun Pocket and the famous Long Long Road to Victory

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/19/2018 6:17:31 PM   
asl3d


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

Okay so those gentlemen you mentioned are famous ASL people. I wish I had played that game too. I only played Axis & Allies but played it an awful lot to be honest. I have a newer version of it but don't know anyone now who likes wargames of the board type.

The SSG games are what I'm used to. I like the operational level with battalions and regiments that make up divisions. It is fun preparing complex attacks and then seeing how they cook. I used to play Steel Panthers (I think it is called that) which was squad based too but no where near as strict and difficult as Lock n Load. I really liked the stuff that Wild Bill made especially his eastern campaign I think Korsun Pocket and the famous Long Long Road to Victory


Famous ASL people:

Right.

Games

Boardgames, especially ASL are difficult. They have many rules to respect (even the "famous ASL people" recognize that there are moments that they forget to apply a certain rule), many charts to consult, many modifiers by terrain effect, units, their morale, and much more. Calculate all that makes the game move slowly, sometimes, desperately slowly. But it has its charm.
Naturally, a computer is a very important gameplay aid. I am amazed with HoS, even with TotH (despite its obvious limitations).
I know and I've played Steel Panthers and also Korsun Pocket. Both games are very funny but, with all the respect for those who think differently, ASL and its computer versions (especially HoS), are on another level, both complexity and show.
Thinking of the battalion-level game, Avalon Hill Company published a series of promising boardgames: Panzer Leader, Panzerblitz, and several expansions. They were promising but I think they failed to capture the essence of a game at this level without falling into the classic games of regimental-type tactical units, you know ....

< Message edited by asl3d -- 12/19/2018 6:18:26 PM >


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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/20/2018 3:01:48 AM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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I can image the glacier slowness of calculating all that information at every step. But I guess if you are with good friends, the game is just as fun fast or slow.

By Korsun Pocket, I meant the Wild Bill campaign for Steel Panthers, but I also like the SSG Korsun too but Normandy and Italy are lot better I think cause of complex terrain.

I think the SSG games were even more complex than this Lock n Load style especially Normandy and Italy because before moving any units or doing attacks, I had to allocate units and arty & air support to each attack in advance so I didn't overload on the first or second attack which makes the other attacks too weak. I also had to consider the effect of cratering roads so sometimes had to hold off on using arty, and then the biggest problem of putting units on defensive terrain after attacking to avoid being wiped out in counterattacks. And allocating units was fun cause it is good to have reserves, and a reinforcement division could sneak up to a random part of the line and surprise the enemy with a sudden strong attack at that point. If I made a hole in the enemy line, had to think was it worth it to rush in a fast unit like a recon armored car to destroy arty and supply trucks cause the unit I send will be destroyed by a counterattack which can be a terrible loss to a division. The are only a small number of objectives so it is important to make a long-term plan. In Italy it was fun to set up ambushes on roads that the allied player expects to be undefended and then swoop in suddenly and wipe out enemy units and then move further up the road on defensible terrain to avoid an angry counterattack. The Salerno, Sicily and Overlord battles got quite complex cause of terrain and supply problems on the mountain roads. Germany has lots of nice defensible terrain in Italy but is low on units and is very vulnerable to supply being cut off on those mountain roads but can sure do a lot of damage to the allies if used carefully. Those are the only games I played PBEM games a lot with.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/20/2018 6:25:25 PM   
asl3d


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

I can image the glacier slowness of calculating all that information at every step. But I guess if you are with good friends, the game is just as fun fast or slow.

By Korsun Pocket, I meant the Wild Bill campaign for Steel Panthers, but I also like the SSG Korsun too but Normandy and Italy are lot better I think cause of complex terrain.

I think the SSG games were even more complex than this Lock n Load style especially Normandy and Italy because before moving any units or doing attacks, I had to allocate units and arty & air support to each attack in advance so I didn't overload on the first or second attack which makes the other attacks too weak. I also had to consider the effect of cratering roads so sometimes had to hold off on using arty, and then the biggest problem of putting units on defensive terrain after attacking to avoid being wiped out in counterattacks. And allocating units was fun cause it is good to have reserves, and a reinforcement division could sneak up to a random part of the line and surprise the enemy with a sudden strong attack at that point. If I made a hole in the enemy line, had to think was it worth it to rush in a fast unit like a recon armored car to destroy arty and supply trucks cause the unit I send will be destroyed by a counterattack which can be a terrible loss to a division. The are only a small number of objectives so it is important to make a long-term plan. In Italy it was fun to set up ambushes on roads that the allied player expects to be undefended and then swoop in suddenly and wipe out enemy units and then move further up the road on defensible terrain to avoid an angry counterattack. The Salerno, Sicily and Overlord battles got quite complex cause of terrain and supply problems on the mountain roads. Germany has lots of nice defensible terrain in Italy but is low on units and is very vulnerable to supply being cut off on those mountain roads but can sure do a lot of damage to the allies if used carefully. Those are the only games I played PBEM games a lot with.


SSG games:

The game that I like the most is Normandy, although Italy is also very good.
However, a good game does not mean it is convincing. All those games are good, some very good, but none convinced me.
I think the problem for game designers on this scale is to correctly reproduce the tactical complexity of the units at the battalion level and, at the same time, introduce strategic aspects for the regimental and/or division commanders.

The Longest Day:

The game that I have seen that comes closest to this that I am explaining to you is a boardgame, published years ago by The Avalon Hill Game Company. His name, how could it be otherwise, is The Longest Day. The game does not only cover the landing of Normandy, because on this scale it is difficult to enter into the detail of the landing. However, the organization of each division, with its battalions, its zones of influence, the artillery support of each division or regiment, were very convincing. The problem is that it is a macro boardgame. Very complex to manage, even if you have good friends with you that help you have a good time ......




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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/20/2018 6:28:35 PM   
asl3d


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This is a huge game, even by the standards of the time, with 2603 counters and 7 mounted map boards of the whole D-Day theatre.








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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/20/2018 6:35:58 PM   
asl3d


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Mammoth Game of the Assault, Build-up, and Breakout from Normandy, June - August 1944

The Longest Day is tactical level Monster game depicting the assault, buildup, and breakout of the Normandy Invasion.

The game includes 2603 counters representing Battalion sized units and command units up to Corp level of the American and German armies in northern France. Seven map boards depict the invasion beaches and areas as far east as Cabourg, as far west as Coutances, and as far south as Avranches/Argentan. The counters are in the style of German WW2 military symbols representing armor, infantry, artillery, assault guns, bicycle units, etc. Five separate scenarios are presented using the programmed instruction approach learning only what's needed to play a scenario before moving on to the next scenario.

Once all the rules have been learned then the campaign game is played which can take up to several months to finish.






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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/20/2018 6:42:09 PM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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That is mammoth as the box says. That map makes me feel remember the Decisive Battles Normandy game. I guess it takes a long time to prepare and calculate attacks in that game. It makes Axis & Allies feel ike a childrens' game although I will always like it. One game must take several sessions or more to finish right? I hope there are no cats or children in the house cause they are the bane of boardgames left overnight.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/20/2018 6:45:42 PM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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Golly that second picture would probably be too much even for NATO commanders to handle. Several months to finish is kind of funny. What if the board gets bumped by some pet or person being careless? Just setting up that game must take a full gaming session.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/20/2018 6:46:48 PM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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Oh and where is that map? Is that a zoomed in view of somewhere in Normandy? I thought there were only a few rivers with no lakes there.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/20/2018 6:50:45 PM   
asl3d


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

That is mammoth as the box says. That map makes me feel remember the Decisive Battles Normandy game. I guess it takes a long time to prepare and calculate attacks in that game. It makes Axis & Allies feel ike a childrens' game although I will always like it. One game must take several sessions or more to finish right? I hope there are no cats or children in the house cause they are the bane of boardgames left overnight.


Yes, with cats or with little monsters that want to take the counters, carefully stacked, it is still harder to play.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/20/2018 6:52:10 PM   
asl3d


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

Golly that second picture would probably be too much even for NATO commanders to handle. Several months to finish is kind of funny. What if the board gets bumped by some pet or person being careless? Just setting up that game must take a full gaming session.


If that happens to you, you simply commit suicide.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/20/2018 6:54:12 PM   
asl3d


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

Oh and where is that map? Is that a zoomed in view of somewhere in Normandy? I thought there were only a few rivers with no lakes there.


I have downloaded it from the Internet. I do not know what corresponds to The Longest Day, but I remember (I'm not sure) that an expansion was published !!!!!!!!!!!

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/20/2018 6:56:11 PM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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hehe, but with digital cameras these days you can take pictures of the board each time to help repair it right? You'd need close up pictures of each part of the board to see all the counters. But don't tell the little monsters or cat that solution or they will think, "Oh sweet! Now I am free to toss everything on that board all over the room for my personal pleasure."

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/20/2018 7:19:12 PM   
asl3d


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

hehe, but with digital cameras these days you can take pictures of the board each time to help repair it right? You'd need close up pictures of each part of the board to see all the counters. But don't tell the little monsters or cat that solution or they will think, "Oh sweet! Now I am free to toss everything on that board all over the room for my personal pleasure."


Well, digital cameras are a poor consolation. Can you imagine what it costs to stack all those little counters again?
Better not to think about it.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/21/2018 11:36:46 PM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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I am more comfortable with less complex games. I've seen pictures of some really nice boardgames about WW2. I wish I knew people here who like boardgames.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/21/2018 11:37:46 PM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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asl3d, have you ever tried any Gary Grisby games? They really seem like your style with overwhelming detail and historical accuracy.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/22/2018 6:36:04 PM   
asl3d


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

I am more comfortable with less complex games. I've seen pictures of some really nice boardgames about WW2. I wish I knew people here who like boardgames.


I also.
Games that require the use of a lot of auxiliary peripheral material make the game less fluid. Precisely, the appearance of computers has allowed to wargaming designers to assign machines the dirty work and leave human players the role of strategy. This is the truly fun. The Longest Day is a perfect example of what I am saying.

Those of us who have played boardgames have encountered the difficulties that I mentioned above. Many ASL players, like me, have seen the light just when Heores of Stalingrad and other games have appeared.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/22/2018 6:38:16 PM   
asl3d


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

asl3d, have you ever tried any Gary Grisby games? They really seem like your style with overwhelming detail and historical accuracy.


Gary Grigsby games:

No, I've never tried any.
I prefer to play wargames at level of small units. ASL and HoS are the type of size I prefer.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/22/2018 8:10:02 PM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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Another game on this squad level are the Battlefield Academy games on Slitherine. It is the same like a tank is a tank and a squad is just a half dozen or less soldiers and there are support guns and you can call an airstrike of 1 plane.

Here is a picture of a German truck convoy that ran into a Russian ambush.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/22/2018 8:12:07 PM   
asl3d


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

Another game on this squad level are the Battlefield Academy games on Slitherine. It is the same like a tank is a tank and a squad is just a half dozen or less soldiers and there are support guns and you can call an airstrike of 1 plane.

Here is a picture of a German truck convoy that ran into a Russian ambush.



It looks very interesting.

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RE: Tutorial for Barrikady Factory Battle - 12/22/2018 8:12:42 PM   
asl3d


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Closed for Holidays (only one weeks, don't worry)!




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