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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/2/2019 11:16:45 PM   
mussey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Armored division with old equipment, for the 4th, 6th, 7th, and 10th Divisions. Probably need to add trucks so supply flows well.

Cheers




There are x20 155 SP Gun carriages. Should these be 155mm howitzers?

_____________________________

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The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


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Post #: 61
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 1:10:07 AM   
mussey


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My one source previously photo'd above has additional corps Art Rgts for 1977:

I Corps, 17 RA 155 (?), 19 RA 155 (?)
II Corps, 24 RA 155 (Reutlingen)
III Corps, 8 RA 155 (Commercy), 16 RA 155 (?), 3 RA RAM 155 (Vernon)

What does your source show for these? Let me know what you find.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


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Post #: 62
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 5:20:43 AM   
cathar1244

 

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Hi Mussey,

I'll try to reply to all of your questions. Easy question first. The 155 SP's shown for the "old equipment" armored divisions is the first French 155mm postwar SP gun, called the "F3". See image below (the TOAW silhouette is not an accurate depiction). Information about it can be found the 'net. I'm reasonably sure the armored divisions had SP pieces, not towed pieces.



Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 2/3/2019 5:22:04 AM >

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Post #: 63
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 6:38:59 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

My one source previously photo'd above has additional corps Art Rgts for 1977:

I Corps, 17 RA 155 (?), 19 RA 155 (?)
II Corps, 24 RA 155 (Reutlingen)
III Corps, 8 RA 155 (Commercy), 16 RA 155 (?), 3 RA RAM 155 (Vernon)

What does your source show for these? Let me know what you find.


From my notes above --
19e RA at Draguignan with 14th Infantry Division.
8e RA at Commercy with 4th Armored Division.
16e RA at Chaumont with III Corps, assumed to be an artillery observation battalion, but only an assumption
3e RAMa at Vernon with 12th Infantry Division

Others --
17e RA -- assigned to territorial forces, located at Biscarrosse, but was an air defense regiment from 1970 forward. Equipped with 40mm AA guns, it supported the missile testing facility at Landes.

24e RA -- an antiaircraft group in the immediate postwar era, not reformed as an artillery regiment until mid-1981 and subordinated to 5th Armored Division.

Cheers


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Post #: 64
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 7:07:11 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey


quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Infantry Division.

Cheers




Cathar, this Infantry unit is really slimmed down. The x70 jeeps look suspicious? In game terms the jeep is a recon vehicle that greatly adds to recon %. Can you re-verify that? Was there any other APC's?


60 of those jeeps are in the divisional recon battalion. Overall, the "division" was really weak; three infantry battalions, an artillery battalion, an engineer company, and the recon battalion.

I read the AML armored cars tended to be deployed within France, so I put them in the recon battalions of these infantry divisions. The APCs are something else. From what I read, there were still many truck drawn units among the motorized infantry into the 1980s, although the VABs were being deployed. You could make 100 of the trucks as VABs and the representation would not be too bad.

Cheers

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Post #: 65
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 7:36:46 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

On to two more orbat issues:

1) In the original scenario, the West German Jager Divisions (2nd and 4th) are composed of Panzer and Grenadier brigades and the divisions were designated as such. However, I found that from 1974-1980 they were true Jager's. Does anyone know what the equipment would be? My guess is they might be closer to the Mountaineer Div during this time frame.(x2 Mtn Bdes, x1 PG bde).

2) The West German reserves (Territorial Command) is paramount, yet I've found very little in Orbats for the 1979 time period. One source lists it as more of a security force for behind the lines, and that it did not become a more structured reserve force until 1982. Is this true?

If anyone can point me in the right direction on these issues, I would be much obliged.


I'll dig into this. I can say authoritatively the Jäger's for the 2nd and 4th Divisions were not mountain infantry. German Jäger organization, completely beyond the mountain and airborne infantry, was multi-faceted. There were these guys, plus each division had a Jäger battalion as light infantry dedicated to rear-area combat operations. Beyond even that, there were Jäger units in the reserve that were local defense units. Some were motorized, others had M113 APCs. I'll get back to you with more information. Ditto for the territorial forces.

On territorial forces, from Keegan's "World Armies" (published 1979).

quote:

The Territorial Army's combat units are of three sorts: (a) Home Defence Groups (Heimatschutzkommandos), of which one is in existence or planned for Military Districts II - VI (all have now been formed); (b) light infantry battalions (Jägerbataillone), of which 21 are in existence or planned for the Defence Regions; and (c) Security Companies (Sicherungskompanie), of which 300 are planned for or are in existence in the Defense sub-regions. The Home Defence Groups are effectively very lightly equipped infantry brigades of two motorised infantry battalions, one engineer battalion, one anti-tank company, and one very heavy mortar company, numbers which can be doubled in emergency by the call-up of recruits; in peace, each contains about 2500 men, of whom all but 15% are conscripts undergoing training. The light infantry battalions of the Defence Regions have a permanent cadre but are manned by reservists, who do 14 days annual training; the battalions are motorised but would requisition most of their vehicles from civilian sources. The Security Companies of the Defence Sub-regions are entirely reservist in composition and based in areas where the reservists live.


Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 2/3/2019 7:52:32 AM >

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Post #: 66
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 8:33:42 AM   
cathar1244

 

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More on W German territorial forces.

quote:

Each Heimatschütz Jaeger Battalion had three Jaeger companies described much as you mention – four platoons, with a support platoon that usually contained a pair of FK-20 or FK-20-2 20mm AA guns and a 106mm recoilless rifle or two (as well as 48 tripod-mounted machine guns, one per squad). Each Heimatschütz Regiment (of two battalions) also had a 120mm mortar company and a Kanonejagdpanzer Platoon of six vehicles.



Heimatschützkommando organization.

Cheers

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Post #: 67
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 8:52:14 AM   
cathar1244

 

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W German rear-area combat ops Jäger battalion.

quote:

There's Jaeger and there's Jaeger and there's Jaeger…
There were also 'Heavy' Jaeger Battalions. Each West German division had one and its role was that of mobile infantry reserve and rear-area/convoy escort. A 'Heavy' Jaeger Battalion had three companies organised as above. Each battalion had three Jaeger Companies and a 120mm Panzer-Mortar Company (as for Panzer-Grenadier Battalions).

As mentioned above, 'pure' Panzer-Grenadier Battalions had Jaeger Companies. These were organised as described above: three platoons, each with three sections and mounted in three M113s. CHQ with a single M113. No reserve section or support platoon. Note: 27 tripod mounted MG's per battalion, one per rifle squad.


quote:

M113 PGr Platoon:
Each platoon has 3x M113, 3 nine-man sections, each section has 1 MG3 and 1
Milan-1. In theory each also section also had a Carl Gustav firing
illumination rounds only, but these were generally left in barracks. Each
Pz Gr battalion has 63 disposable LAW (M72A1 or Pzf-44) which would equate
to 2 per section, assuming HQs and the mortar company had some.


And, checking a different source, it looks like the Jaeger battalions of the Jaeger brigades of the 2nd and 4th divisions were issued Marder IFVs to replace their M113s in the early to mid 1970s. So only the divisonal "rear-area combat" Jaeger battalion should have the M113s.

On the Jaeger brigade structure, Keegan notes:

quote:

three [mech] infantry battalions, a tank destroyer battalion [32 Kanonepanzerjaeger and 8 Raketen-Panzerjaeger vehicles], and one artillery battalion (18 155mm SP howitzers)


Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 2/3/2019 9:20:01 AM >

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Post #: 68
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 9:06:42 AM   
mussey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244


quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

My one source previously photo'd above has additional corps Art Rgts for 1977:

I Corps, 17 RA 155 (?), 19 RA 155 (?)
II Corps, 24 RA 155 (Reutlingen)
III Corps, 8 RA 155 (Commercy), 16 RA 155 (?), 3 RA RAM 155 (Vernon)

What does your source show for these? Let me know what you find.


From my notes above --
19e RA at Draguignan with 14th Infantry Division.
8e RA at Commercy with 4th Armored Division.
16e RA at Chaumont with III Corps, assumed to be an artillery observation battalion, but only an assumption
3e RAMa at Vernon with 12th Infantry Division

Others --
17e RA -- assigned to territorial forces, located at Biscarrosse, but was an air defense regiment from 1970 forward. Equipped with 40mm AA guns, it supported the missile testing facility at Landes.

24e RA -- an antiaircraft group in the immediate postwar era, not reformed as an artillery regiment until mid-1981 and subordinated to 5th Armored Division.

Cheers




Thanks for the cross-check. I should be finished with the French Orbat tonight, and will then proceed to WGer Terr Army. Once again, good work. Excellent pic of the F3, the TOAW silhouette threw me off, sorry to doubt you.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


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Post #: 69
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 9:19:00 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

sorry to doubt you.


No,no, always look critically and ask. Remember our old US Army training ... the only dumb question is the one not asked.

Cheers

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Post #: 70
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 9:21:57 AM   
cathar1244

 

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German Wikipedia brings out something interesting about the Jaeger Brigades in the 2nd and 4th Divisions. They had three Jaeger battalions, but one was equipment at a depot and would have to be filled out with reservists.

Cheers

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Post #: 71
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 9:57:13 AM   
mussey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

German Wikipedia brings out something interesting about the Jaeger Brigades in the 2nd and 4th Divisions. They had three Jaeger battalions, but one was equipment at a depot and would have to be filled out with reservists.

Cheers


The TO&E for these units will prove interesting. I'm assuming the Div's should be lighter than the other Panzer and Pzr Gren units, yet with armored/mech elements.

As for the Terr Army, I need to get this right, since with the presumed massive Soviet penetration, it will be these units that will be the second line in WGer. The current game has them attached as reserve bde's to the x3 Corps (iirc x6-8 per corp). I may leave them here, yet some sources suggest they had their own divisional/corp structure.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 72
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 10:28:03 AM   
cathar1244

 

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Location of Heimatschützkommando HQ.

HSK 13 in Eutin (Flensburg-Weiche)
..Jaeger Regiment 38 in Flensburg
..Jaeger Regiment 39 in Putlos
HSK 14 in Lingen (Ems)
..Jaeger Regiment 41 in ?
..Jaeger Regiment 42 in Ochtrup
HSK 15 in Wuppertal
..Jaeger Regiment 44 in Ahlen
..Jaeger Regiment 45 in Unna
HSK 16 in Zweibrücken
..Jaeger Regiment 47 in Oberbexbach
..Jaeger Regiment 48 in ?
HSK 17 in Böblingen (10 kilometers S of Stuttgart)
..Jaeger Regiment 50 in Böblingen
..Jaeger Regiment 51 in Münsingen
HSK 18 in Neuburg an der Donau
..Jaeger Regiment 53 in Munich
..Jaeger Regiment 54 in Neuburg an der Donau

Cheers

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Post #: 73
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 10:54:34 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey


quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

German Wikipedia brings out something interesting about the Jaeger Brigades in the 2nd and 4th Divisions. They had three Jaeger battalions, but one was equipment at a depot and would have to be filled out with reservists.

Cheers


The TO&E for these units will prove interesting. I'm assuming the Div's should be lighter than the other Panzer and Pzr Gren units, yet with armored/mech elements.

As for the Terr Army, I need to get this right, since with the presumed massive Soviet penetration, it will be these units that will be the second line in WGer. The current game has them attached as reserve bde's to the x3 Corps (iirc x6-8 per corp). I may leave them here, yet some sources suggest they had their own divisional/corp structure.


Territorial brigades did not appear until 1981. There are 12 territorial regiments as mentioned in my other comment. Organization in TOAW for a regiment: 96 assault rifle AT+, 96 MMG, 8 ea. 120-mm mortars, 6 PanzerjaegerKanone tank destroyers, 7 20-mm AA guns (towed), and six 106-mm recoilless or six "Cobra" ATGM.

Some of this may be a jumble. A good source claims there were two kinds of territorial Jaeger battalion, one heavy and one light, but this is a good start for the territorial OOB.

Cheers

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 74
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 11:08:40 AM   
mussey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

On to two more orbat issues:

1) In the original scenario, the West German Jager Divisions (2nd and 4th) are composed of Panzer and Grenadier brigades and the divisions were designated as such. However, I found that from 1974-1980 they were true Jager's. Does anyone know what the equipment would be? My guess is they might be closer to the Mountaineer Div during this time frame.(x2 Mtn Bdes, x1 PG bde).

2) The West German reserves (Territorial Command) is paramount, yet I've found very little in Orbats for the 1979 time period. One source lists it as more of a security force for behind the lines, and that it did not become a more structured reserve force until 1982. Is this true?

If anyone can point me in the right direction on these issues, I would be much obliged.


I'll dig into this. I can say authoritatively the Jäger's for the 2nd and 4th Divisions were not mountain infantry. German Jäger organization, completely beyond the mountain and airborne infantry, was multi-faceted. There were these guys, plus each division had a Jäger battalion as light infantry dedicated to rear-area combat operations. Beyond even that, there were Jäger units in the reserve that were local defense units. Some were motorized, others had M113 APCs. I'll get back to you with more information. Ditto for the territorial forces.

On territorial forces, from Keegan's "World Armies" (published 1979).

quote:

The Territorial Army's combat units are of three sorts: (a) Home Defence Groups (Heimatschutzkommandos), of which one is in existence or planned for Military Districts II - VI (all have now been formed); (b) light infantry battalions (Jägerbataillone), of which 21 are in existence or planned for the Defence Regions; and (c) Security Companies (Sicherungskompanie), of which 300 are planned for or are in existence in the Defense sub-regions. The Home Defence Groups are effectively very lightly equipped infantry brigades of two motorised infantry battalions, one engineer battalion, one anti-tank company, and one very heavy mortar company, numbers which can be doubled in emergency by the call-up of recruits; in peace, each contains about 2500 men, of whom all but 15% are conscripts undergoing training. The light infantry battalions of the Defence Regions have a permanent cadre but are manned by reservists, who do 14 days annual training; the battalions are motorised but would requisition most of their vehicles from civilian sources. The Security Companies of the Defence Sub-regions are entirely reservist in composition and based in areas where the reservists live.


Cheers


This is from Fire and Fury. Does this compare w/Keegan? {edit] the other Commands are also listed.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by mussey -- 2/3/2019 11:09:34 AM >


_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


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Post #: 75
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 11:19:12 AM   
cathar1244

 

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On the brigades in the 2nd and 4th Divisions, some translated comments.

quote:

The plan was for the 2nd and 4th Jaeger Divisions to have two Jaeger brigades and a Panzer brigade.

The reorganization actually took place like this:

4th PG Division was retitled as the 4th Jaeger Division with Jaeger Brigades 10 and 11, as well as Panzer Brigade 12.
Brigade 10 (at Weiden) with battalions 101 and 102; 103 was equipment only.
Brigade 11 (at Bogen) with battalions 112 and 113; 111 was equipment only.

2nd PG Division was retitled as the 2nd Jaeger Division with Jaeger Brigade 4, Panzergrenadier Brigade 5, and Panzer Brigade 6. The planned transformation of Panzergrenadier Brigade 5 into a Jaeger brigade did not take place.
Brigade 4 (at Göttingen) with battalions 41 and 42; 43 was equipment only.

Additionally, Panzergrenadier Brigades 16 and 17 of the 6th PG Division were assigned Jaeger Battalions 162 and 172...

Organization:

The Jaeger battalions of the regular army were all of Type JgBtl B3 with the following organization:
1st Headquarters and Headquarters Company
2nd Jaeger Company (four platoons mounted in M113s)
3rd and 4th Jaeger Companies (four platoons mounted in trucks)
5th (heavy) company with infantry fighting vehicles (10 vehicles), armored mortar platoon (6 mortars), and an armored ATGM platoon (with six COBRA)


Note: The COBRAs were probably replaced with MILAN in the early 1970s. Also, per my other source, the units in the actual Jaeger brigades moved to Marder IFVs in the early-mid 1970s, but the divisional (rear area combat) Jaeger battalions probably had the structure noted here.

Cheers

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Post #: 76
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 11:21:34 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

This is from Fire and Fury. Does this compare w/Keegan? {edit] the other Commands are also listed.


That is for the 1980s, note the brigades have come into existence (as of 1981).

Cheers

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Post #: 77
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 12:55:15 PM   
cathar1244

 

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W German territorial forces: Besides the 12 HSK regiments, these Jaeger battalions existed in 1979.

JgBtl 714 Eutin 1971 – 1987
JgBtl 724 Bremerhaven 1974 – 1979, then Bremen until 1981
JgBtl 742 Koblenz 1970 – 1982
JgBtl 752 Oftersheim 1970 – 2006
JgBtl 762 Neubrunn 1971 – 1976
JgBtl 763 Regensburg 1975 – 1981

Structure was 48 assault rifle AT+ squads, 48 medium MG, eight 120mm mortar, seven 20mm AA gun, and six 106mm recoilless per battalion.

Cheers

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Post #: 78
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/3/2019 9:32:47 PM   
mussey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

W German territorial forces: Besides the 12 HSK regiments, these Jaeger battalions existed in 1979.

JgBtl 714 Eutin 1971 – 1987
JgBtl 724 Bremerhaven 1974 – 1979, then Bremen until 1981
JgBtl 742 Koblenz 1970 – 1982
JgBtl 752 Oftersheim 1970 – 2006
JgBtl 762 Neubrunn 1971 – 1976
JgBtl 763 Regensburg 1975 – 1981

Structure was 48 assault rifle AT+ squads, 48 medium MG, eight 120mm mortar, seven 20mm AA gun, and six 106mm recoilless per battalion.

Cheers



Excellent work. This is a reduction from the original game, which had: 6 bdes, 16 rgt's.

I may be able to start on this tonight.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 79
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/4/2019 3:18:59 PM   
mussey


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I'm nearing the finish with the W.Ger Terr Army reserves, but still have a few nagging concerns. For example, a source shows that by 1981-82, WGer had 1200 M-48 Pattons. I wonder if some (or most) of them would show up in these Territory units? Does Keegan account for these?:

German Army Formations [1981-82]
• 6 Tank Divisions (Panzerdivisionen)
• 4 Armored Infantry Divisions (Panzergrenadierdivisionen)
• 1 Mountain Division (Gebirgsdivision)
• 6 Home Defense Tank Brigades (Heimatschutz – Panzerbrigaden)
• 6 Home Defense Armored Infantry Brigades (Heimatschutz – Panzergrenadierbrigaden (not complete)

Number of tanks[1]
MBTs

1,200 M48 A2C/A2GA2
2,737 Leopard 1 A2/A3/A4/A5/A6/1A1A1
1350 Leopard 2
770 Kanonenjagdpanzer
350 Raketenjagdpanzer



_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 80
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/4/2019 3:36:31 PM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

I'm nearing the finish with the W.Ger Terr Army reserves, but still have a few nagging concerns. For example, a source shows that by 1981-82, WGer had 1200 M-48 Pattons. I wonder if some (or most) of them would show up in these Territory units? Does Keegan account for these?:

German Army Formations [1981-82]
• 6 Tank Divisions (Panzerdivisionen)
• 4 Armored Infantry Divisions (Panzergrenadierdivisionen)
• 1 Mountain Division (Gebirgsdivision)
• 6 Home Defense Tank Brigades (Heimatschutz – Panzerbrigaden)
• 6 Home Defense Armored Infantry Brigades (Heimatschutz – Panzergrenadierbrigaden (not complete)

Number of tanks[1]
MBTs

1,200 M48 A2C/A2GA2
2,737 Leopard 1 A2/A3/A4/A5/A6/1A1A1
1350 Leopard 2
770 Kanonenjagdpanzer
350 Raketenjagdpanzer




This bit from the German Wikipedia.
quote:

Ab 1978 wurden 650 M48A2C der Bundeswehr mit der 105-mm-Kanone L7 des Kpz Leopard 1 und mit einer anderen Geschützblende ausgerüstet. Außerdem wurde die Kommandantenkuppel entfernt und durch den Winkelspiegelring des Brückenlegepanzers „Biber“ ersetzt. Zur Flugabwehr und zur Bekämpfung von Kleinzielen diente nunmehr das Maschinengewehr MG3. Ebenfalls umgerüstet wurde das Zielfernrohr zum passiven Nachtziel- und Beobachtungsgerät PZB 200.[8] Mit diesen Fahrzeugen wurden die Panzerbataillone der 2. und 4. Jägerdivision (Kassel bzw. Regensburg) und einige der teilmobilen Panzerbataillone der Heimatschutztruppe ausgestattet. Nach der Umwandlung der Jägerdivisionen in Panzergrenadierdivisionen erhielten diese ebenfalls den Kampfpanzer Leopard 2. Die M48A2GA2 wurden den teilmobilen und nichtaktiven Panzerbataillonen des Territorialheeres zugewiesen, wo sie, auch noch solche vom Typ M48A2C, bis zur Auflösung dieser Verbände (etwa 1993) verwendet wurden.


Important parts are that 650 got upgraded to 105-mm cannon (like the M48A5) and that these served with the 2nd and 4th Jaeger Divisions in the divisional Panzer battalions. These were eventually replaced with Leopard 2's when those two divisions once again were titled "Panzergrenadier". The 105mm M48s were then farmed out to inactive tank battalions in the Territorial Army before being removed in 1993.

I'll let you know if I see other info.

Cheers

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 81
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/4/2019 4:09:41 PM   
cathar1244

 

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I'm seeing the M48 battalions appear in the Territorial Army from the early 1980s forward. Some other bits.

Heimatschützregiment -- the 7 Jagdpanzers and 18 120mm mortars in the HQ Company. Each subordinate battalion has seven of the 20mm AA guns.

If as an option, you wish to show M48 battalions in the Territorial Army, they were organized with 41 M48A2GA2 (the German 105mm version).

There is a lot that could be researched here. I have a complete list of the Territorial Army for 1989 and can look up units in the database of the German Military History Directorate. That is where I found the Panzer battalions appearing in the 1980s. Big project, though. You can see the volume I mention at:

https://www.relikte.com/_basis/docs/bw_2_2-4.pdf

Cheers

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Post #: 82
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/4/2019 4:55:26 PM   
cathar1244

 

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Mussey,

Not sure if you've seen this.

https://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/BundeswehrTankEquipmentByYear.pdf

Very useful for the German OOB.

Cheers

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Post #: 83
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/4/2019 5:23:31 PM   
mussey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

I'm seeing the M48 battalions appear in the Territorial Army from the early 1980s forward. Some other bits.

Heimatschützregiment -- the 7 Jagdpanzers and 18 120mm mortars in the HQ Company. Each subordinate battalion has seven of the 20mm AA guns.

If as an option, you wish to show M48 battalions in the Territorial Army, they were organized with 41 M48A2GA2 (the German 105mm version).

There is a lot that could be researched here. I have a complete list of the Territorial Army for 1989 and can look up units in the database of the German Military History Directorate. That is where I found the Panzer battalions appearing in the 1980s. Big project, though. You can see the volume I mention at:

https://www.relikte.com/_basis/docs/bw_2_2-4.pdf

Cheers


Until more info comes in, I will add the x41 M48's to each HSK bde (I think for now). This equates 6x41=246, then the other M48's for the several divisions listed above gets us to around 900-ish (I'm ballparking). I'm going to play around with the orbat editor to see what these hybrids will look like...

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 84
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/4/2019 5:38:31 PM   
cathar1244

 

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Sounds like a reasonable design decision. One thing to note, though, is how many of the 48's in service in 1979 were A2GA2 version with 105mm. If most of them were 105mm versions, then the available total was 650 converted to that standard. I'm thinking, by 1979, the Germans thought the 90mm cannon versions long in the tooth to confront the Soviet forces.

Cheers

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 85
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/4/2019 6:21:02 PM   
mussey


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From: Cleve-Land
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I converted the several divisions (6,4,1,12) to the M-48 III Impr, and added the bns to the HSK bdes. This totals around 620, about half of the aggregate. The remainder we can assume are in depots awaiting for future loss replenishment.

I visit that site a lot, but missed that chart. Thanks again!

FYI: My Terr Army now looks like this:
- x6 HSK Bdes (x2 Inf rgts/ x1 Tk bde/ x1 engr pion bn)
- x6 Jager Bns

This is a significant reduction from the original game. 1980's orbats of F&F list District Defence Commands (‘VBK’), rgt-sized units, all rifled, that resemble militia (?). I'm still trying to identify these units, if they existed in the 1970's.

2nd FYI: 1980's orbats are listing the regular army divisions with several Jagar Bns. I'm not sure to add them to the 1979 scenario. If so, maybe they were reserves?

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 86
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/4/2019 6:27:39 PM   
mussey


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From: Cleve-Land
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quote:

a reasonable design decision


Exactly. If I were creating just for myself, I would feel fine with this. But since others may eventually play as well, I want to get this as reasonably close as possible without too many justifications.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 87
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 5:37:54 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

This is a significant reduction from the original game. 1980's orbats of F&F list District Defence Commands (‘VBK’), rgt-sized units, all rifled, that resemble militia (?). I'm still trying to identify these units, if they existed in the 1970's.


I think they existed since at least the 1960s. But the F&F representation is misleading.

The VBK was actually a district headquarters. They were subordinated to a WBK, the regional headquarters. And below the VBK was the VKK, a sub-district headquarters. None of these were organized as tactical units. They commanded in wartime a potpourri of small units, most of them related to mobilization or logistics. There were local defense companies, security companies, and infrastructure demolition and repair specialists under the VBKs, but it would be tough to represent that with any accuracy in TOAW.

If one assumes that all the local defense companies were motivated enough to fight and die (with families on the run?), then maybe something like upticking the Soviet force setting for pestilence to represent "other losses" resulting from cleaning out defended villages and the like.

Cheers

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 88
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 12:02:52 PM   
cathar1244

 

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Information on W German corps units
I Corps

	FlgAbt 101	48 UH-1		Fassberg
	FlgAbt 151	32 CH-53	Rheine-Bentlage
	FlgAbt 161	56 Bo-105/ATGM	Celle

	ArtBtl 110	18 ea 105mm howitzer		Dülmen
	ArtBtl 120	18 ea 155mm howitzer M114	Unna
	ArtBtl 130	18 ea 105mm howitzer		Unna
	RakArtBtl 150	13 ea 20mm AA Gun, 6 LANCE missiles	Wesel
	SichBtl 100	Attached light infantry battalion to protect the LANCE missiles

	Pionier Kommando 1 (PiKdo 1)			Münster
			4 Engineer Battalions
			1 Amph Engineer Battalion
			2 Bridging Battalions






< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 2/5/2019 12:13:44 PM >

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 89
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 12:03:52 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 553
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline
II Corps

	FlgAbt 201	48 UH-1		Neuhausen ob Eck
	FlgAbt 251	32 CH-53	Laupheim
	FlgAbt 261	56 Bo-105/ATGM	Roth

	ArtBtl 210	18 ea 155mm howitzer M114	Philippsburg
	ArtBtl 220	18 ea 105mm howitzer		Oftersheim
	ArtBtl 230	18 ea 155mm howitzer M114	Friederichsthal
	RakArtBtl 250	13 ea 20mm AA Gun, 9 LANCE missiles	Engstingen
	SichBtl 200	Attached light infantry battalion to protect the LANCE missiles

	Pionier Kommando 2 (PiKdo 2)			Ulm
			4 Engineer Battalions
			1 Amph Engineer Battalion
			2 Bridging Battalions



(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 90
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