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Figurative Counters - 12/14/2018 10:09:29 PM   
Cabido

 

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Christophe Sipres was kind enough to allow me to use his work in progress (he stated he wouldn't have the time to finish it) in order to make my own version of figurative counters. Some credits must be given to kosmoface also, since I used some of his ideas too.

I think it is nice to have figurative counters for more tactically driven scenarios and it is, also, a nice tool for beginners to memorize NATO symbols, if used only for the huge view, which I think is the best way to use it, as if troops became visible when zooming in. The fact is that the resolution for other zoom levels is just too low and the figures become unclear. I have provided files for the two highest zoom levels, but really think it should be used only with the highest level of zoom (h prefix).

I didn't try it with the default TOAW counters (I've used the ones from my own mod). Since the frame of the counter is thinner on the bottom part, I don't know how it will look. If someone is kind enough to post a picture after trying it...

http://toawstuff.000webhostapp.com

EDIT: IMPORTANT - There is something I've forgotten to mention in the instructions: the s_CounterUnits.png must be copied from the original TOAW's Graphics folder to the Graphics Override folder. Copy the CounterUnits.png too, if you want to only use the huge view version. For some reason, the Graphics override folder must contain the 3 sizes of counters.




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< Message edited by Cabido -- 12/30/2018 11:16:54 AM >
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RE: Figurative Counters - 12/15/2018 10:45:19 AM   
gliz2

 

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Some of them I find hard to read but generally quite nice.
I wish the devs would allow periodic counters so one could use sets for different periods (like winter/summer and big scenarios per year)

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RE: Figurative Counters - 12/15/2018 12:15:07 PM   
Cabido

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Some of them I find hard to read but generally quite nice.
I wish the devs would allow periodic counters so one could use sets for different periods (like winter/summer and big scenarios per year)


It is mostly a problem with resolution. We have a very limited space on the counter with low resolution and it works like a mask. So, at the end, we have very low res silhouettes. It was programmed to be used with NATO symbols, which it does well.

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RE: Figurative Counters - 12/16/2018 2:11:49 AM   
Silvanski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cabido
I didn't try it with the default TOAW counters (I've used the ones from my own mod). Since the frame of the counter is thinner on the bottom part, I don't know how it will look. If someone is kind enough to post a picture after trying it...


Works for me. I only use them in the huge map view as I am familiar with NATO symbols.






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RE: Figurative Counters - 12/16/2018 11:09:47 AM   
gwgardner

 

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Hi,

I couldn't find any instructions in the download. I'm guessing it goes in the graphics overide folder, but not sure about the zip file TOAW.zip. Please advise.

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RE: Figurative Counters - 12/16/2018 11:26:45 AM   
Cabido

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Hi,

I couldn't find any instructions in the download. I'm guessing it goes in the graphics overide folder, but not sure about the zip file TOAW.zip. Please advise.


You are right; I forgot to include the instruction in the zip. Done already! Forget the TOAW folder, since I must have dragged it in place of the instructions doc.

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RE: Figurative Counters - 12/16/2018 11:32:30 AM   
Cabido

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cabido
I didn't try it with the default TOAW counters (I've used the ones from my own mod). Since the frame of the counter is thinner on the bottom part, I don't know how it will look. If someone is kind enough to post a picture after trying it...


Works for me. I only use them in the huge map view as I am familiar with NATO symbols.








Thanks for the picture. Sadly some colors present a better result than others, but any graphics pack in TOAW is a single solution for all combinations, with the exception of scenario specific graphics.

Using it only for huge view is the best solution, in my opinion, since resolution is too low in other zoom levels. Yet, I've provided the graphics file for the intermediate zoom level for those who think it's alright to use it.

< Message edited by Cabido -- 12/16/2018 11:36:15 AM >

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RE: Figurative Counters - 12/16/2018 12:58:02 PM   
Lobster


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Unfortunately the one size fits all is one of the problems for counter graphics modders in TOAW. It would be nice to be able to have different models for different nations. With terabyte hard drives it's not really necessary to stick to just one counter sheet for every nation in the game. What has been done here is an excellent job despite the limitations.

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RE: Figurative Counters - 12/16/2018 4:05:49 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Yes, a nice job given the limitations introduced with TOAW IV.

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RE: Figurative Counters - 12/17/2018 1:46:27 PM   
SIPRES


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Good job Cabido

I think if develloper could add (by any programming means) a choice between 2 differents files "h_CounterUnits.png".
Then it would allow more flexibility for modders.
For example:
h_CounterUnits1.png could be a "USSR" file
h_CounterUnits2.png could be a "German" file

In such a way you could have T34 vs PzIV silhouettes as armored units during gameplay. (perfect for east front scenarios)

Only 2 Gfx files to be handled as the counters colors as soft coded

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RE: Figurative Counters - 12/17/2018 5:56:27 PM   
sPzAbt653


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I don't think that would solve anything. If you give people two, they will ask for three, give them three they will ask for six, etc. The solution is similar to the Event and Unit limit parameters that were added for IV [10,000 each, now no one will ask for more of either]. The original number of counter sheets needs to be returned in order to restore the icon flexibility of all previous versions.

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RE: Figurative Counters - 12/17/2018 11:07:42 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I don't think that would solve anything. If you give people two, they will ask for three, give them three they will ask for six, etc. The solution is similar to the Event and Unit limit parameters that were added for IV [10,000 each, now no one will ask for more of either]. The original number of counter sheets needs to be returned in order to restore the icon flexibility of all previous versions.


This ^^

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RE: Figurative Counters - 12/18/2018 10:13:04 PM   
Cabido

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SIPRES

Good job Cabido

I think if develloper could add (by any programming means) a choice between 2 differents files "h_CounterUnits.png".
Then it would allow more flexibility for modders.
For example:
h_CounterUnits1.png could be a "USSR" file
h_CounterUnits2.png could be a "German" file

In such a way you could have T34 vs PzIV silhouettes as armored units during gameplay. (perfect for east front scenarios)

Only 2 Gfx files to be handled as the counters colors as soft coded


Thanks Sipres. This was a collaborative work, so you deserve my compliments too.


I have uploaded a new version, with changes to 5 or 6 counters; tank, heavy artillery, armored infantry, special forces, garrison and some other tweaks. I have also added versions with thin frames around the symbols and no frame at all. The thin frame should work better with the original toaw counters graphics.




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RE: Figurative Counters - 12/30/2018 10:42:43 AM   
Franciscus


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Thanks Cabido.

I would like to try your mod, but I do not know why, I am unable to make it work..

Here is what I am doing:
- dowloaded your mod.
- selected h_CounterUnits_thin frame.png and renamed it as h_ConterUnits.png (I wanted to keep TOAW style counters)
- moved the fileh_ConterUnits.png to the folder: \Documents\My Games\The Operational Art of War IV\Graphics Override

When I launch the game (4.1.0.21), the counters at highest magnification are still NATO (several scenarios tested, CFNA, Kasserine, etc)

What am I doing wrong ?


Regards. And happy New Year !

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RE: Figurative Counters - 12/30/2018 11:11:19 AM   
Cabido

 

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There is something I've forgotten to mention in the instructions: you have to copy the s_CounterUnits.png (and the CounterUnits.png, if you want to use only the huge view version) from the original TOAW's Graphics to the Graphics Override folder. For some reason, the Graphics override must contain the 3 sizes of conters.

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Post #: 15
RE: Figurative Counters - 12/30/2018 11:22:59 AM   
Franciscus


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Thank you Cabido.

Now it works perfectly !



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RE: Figurative Counters - 3/7/2019 10:30:45 PM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Unfortunately the one size fits all is one of the problems for counter graphics modders in TOAW. It would be nice to be able to have different models for different nations. With terabyte hard drives it's not really necessary to stick to just one counter sheet for every nation in the game. What has been done here is an excellent job despite the limitations.


Look at the icon list in paragraph 16.1, page 95 of the manual. 43 icon slots have no special attributes, that means the slot can be used for any unit having no special capabilities, i.e. the CCA icon can be edited to be used as an infantry, tank, cavalry unit, et al. Unit capabilities just depends on the equipment assigned. The graphic given to the icon slot is window dressing. Same is true for the 12 slots with ranged weapon attributes (artillery) and 16 aircraft slots. As an example, any icon slot hard coded as a “ranged” attribute can be used for any sort of ranged weapon unit. Use it as a howitzer, missile or thug . . . your choice, depends on the equipment inserted into the unit.

Going beyond figurative icons, its possible to build scenarios using period map symbols from German, Russian, French, Japanese and Italian sources. Available icon slots, symbols and colors can be used to differentiate one nation from another. A number of Russian and German map symbol scenarios were made for TOAW III and may still be available to current designers.

In post #12 (above) Cabido has a beautiful diagram of the TOAW IV icon matrix in figurative. Every icon slot has a figure. But in most scenarios, every slot is not used. This leaves it possible for unused slots to be used for the opposition force. Some icons facing East, some icons facing West. Of course this means that designers will need to do some editing, but then that is what designers like to do.

Regards, RhinoBones


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RE: Figurative Counters - 3/8/2019 3:29:45 AM   
sPzAbt653


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It can be done, a few have taken on the challenge and succeeded. It seems you are making excuses to defend a restriction that has no reason to exist. Allow TOAW IV to use all 108 counter sheets [as has been the case in all previous versions] and no attempt at excuses need be made.

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RE: Figurative Counters - 3/8/2019 3:48:59 AM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

It can be done, a few have taken on the challenge and succeeded. It seems you are making excuses to defend a restriction that has no reason to exist. Allow TOAW IV to use all 108 counter sheets [as has been the case in all previous versions] and no attempt at excuses need be made.


Excuses?

All I was trying to do was offer a solution. Didn’t mean to offend you.

Really kid, get an excuse for yourself.

Regards, RhinoBones


< Message edited by rhinobones -- 3/8/2019 3:51:01 AM >


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RE: Figurative Counters - 3/8/2019 4:20:14 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Solution? We don't need some half-baked kluge solution. We
need everyone to understand what happened here, and the
groundwork for what could be a glimpse into the future.
Below is a shot from III on the left, IV on the right, using
a stock scenario and stock graphics package. The reason we
are having this discussion is the Icons. Not the graphics or
the colors or the numbers or anything else. Look at the ICONS.
These were 'redesigned' for TOAW IV. They look nice, right?
Well worth the time and expense.

But here is what some are misguidedly defending: These Icons
were created for ONE countersheet, and all factions in a scenario
use that countersheet. That was an oversight, and can be corrected
by allowing the original sheets from III to be used [as was done
with the terrain graphics].

We know we can fudge around with the one countersheet that we have,
but why put scenario designers thru the hassle ? Enough designers
have been chased away already, no need to make much less retain such
a mistake. And I say no need to make such a mistake in the first
place because this was a done deal before the Beta Team was even
notified and given a chance to vent such a change. That's why there
is a Beta Team, to help with these things.

I am offended that anyone defends this because I don't expect scenario
designers' work to be disregarded out of hand. No one else should
either. Without scenario designers there is no TOAW.

Today they come for our Icons, tomorrow they come for me !

[Screenshot at 70% resolution]



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< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 3/8/2019 4:23:30 AM >

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RE: Figurative Counters - 3/8/2019 5:17:23 AM   
cathar1244

 

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Cabido,

Beautiful work, your login name should be Da Vinci. My mucking about with counter colors is like someone tossing a bucket of paint on the wall and saying, "See, modern art!" The work here is very fine, thank you.

One idea. I've always found the CCA-CCB-CCC-CCR counters to be redundant. They were all "combat commands"; one thinks a single counter marked "CC" or "Cbt Cmd" would suffice as designers give the unit a name in any case -- I see no advantage in each combat command identified with its counter icon. That would free up three counter designs for some other use. (Not to mention the TF, BG, and KG counters ...)

Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 3/8/2019 5:18:51 AM >

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RE: Figurative Counters - 3/8/2019 6:46:31 AM   
rhinobones

 

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Cabido

You see the point exactly. The counter CCA and others have no value other than the equipment assigned.

Regards, RhinoBones


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Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

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RE: Figurative Counters - 3/8/2019 6:58:05 AM   
rhinobones

 

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Hey buddy, been there.

Regards, Rhino

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Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
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RE: Figurative Counters - 3/8/2019 10:55:15 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

One idea. I've always found the CCA-CCB-CCC-CCR counters to be redundant ...

Again, we don't need 'ideas' on how to circumvent the issue. All that is known and has been known.

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RE: Figurative Counters - 3/8/2019 11:00:33 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

One idea. I've always found the CCA-CCB-CCC-CCR counters to be redundant ...

Again, we don't need 'ideas' on how to circumvent the issue. All that is known and has been known.


Cool, but no fixes among graphics mods posted? I ask because I don't know. As far as ideas go ... well, circumvention may be all we have.

Cheers

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RE: Figurative Counters - 3/31/2019 8:38:30 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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I agree with Steve. Scenario designers don't need their efforts to double for no good reason. One countersheet for all the combatants in the scenario is unacceptable. It's a workaround kind of solution that needs a fix instead. I'd like to see TOAW use 200 countersheets, one for each nation and several for special situations, special terrain, special units, etc. Make the scenario designers efforts easier. Hopefully much easier. Without scenario designers TOAW will die a slow lingering death.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 3/31/2019 8:39:09 AM >


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RE: Figurative Counters - 6/20/2019 5:14:27 PM   
wodin


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Lovely work.

I made a few hundred counters for a game that hardly had the space which was as tough! Just one pixel would make or break look of a unit!

One thing though is I wish like your self I'd done top down plane view instead of side on, would have helped alot!! Also you could have as many counters as units in game, so for instance I created inf units that wore a different helmet depending on nation and even armed service so German mountain troops had different helmet to standard inf, this aswell as weapon type was how you tell difference in sides and unit capabilities. The actual game was released with around 100 counter types I increased it to around 600+ I believe. it was a tactical game though so lots of counters really helped the player, they could see exactly what type of tank a unit had rather than seeing say a generic medium tank and having to choose unit to see exactly what type of tank it was.


Good work though!


< Message edited by wodin -- 6/20/2019 5:32:40 PM >


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RE: Figurative Counters - 11/29/2019 8:24:55 PM   
kosmoface

 

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It has been ages I looked into this part of the forum, but I have to say NICE WORK, CABIDO!!! I am always happy to someone tackle this "mission" of creating figurative counters. And TOAW IV is really something else to master.

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