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Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/13/2018 3:38:20 PM   
exsonic01

 

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I was also thinking that using bog or stream terrain might be a good alternative for rice paddy. However, recent reading gave me different opinion. I think rice paddy deserve its own new tile due to unique characteristic.

http://www.benning.army.mil/Armor/Historian/content/PDF/Armor%20in%20Battle.pdf
"Armor in battle" published by US army armor school introduce about armored battle during Korean war. Here, they introduced about Korean terrain in page 180:

quote:


a. The terrain in Korea is mountainous with numerous valleys, a situation which does not lend itself to
armored warfare as known in Africa and Europe. Armored operations are further channelized at this time of
year by rice paddies. These rice paddies utilize every piece of ground which can be leveled and flooded with
water. While they do offer a hazard to vehicles, they generally have a fairly firm bottom. The soft bottom ride
paddies when found are generally along the river banks. Armored personnel advised that light tanks M-24 and
personnel carriers could negotiate rice paddies about 80% of the time when the rice paddies are wet and
believed that when they are drained, which will start in September, it will permit freedom of maneuver of full
track vehicles.
In negotiating the wet rice paddies with full track vehicles, turning must be minimized and drop
off should be downhill from one rice paddy to the other rather than attempting to climb from one rice paddy to
the other.
Foot troops do operate through the rice paddies, but it is not done when commanding ground is
nearby.

b. The Soviet type tank T-34, while generally reported operating on the roads, did go into wet rice paddies
at times, operate along railroads, in stream beds and on the brows of hills.
While Armor appears to be
channelized it can operate and have some maneuver. Valleys in some cases offered one road, one railroad, one
stream bed (wet or dry) and two hill brows, one on each side, plus the risky rice paddies. The northern part of
Korea becomes cold in the winter time with the possibility of freezing of the ground and water ways which will
facilitate the operation of Armor.

c. There are a few non-fordable rivers in Korea that will require bridging, but most of the other rivers can
be forded with caution.

d. Roads are practically all dirt or macadam (black top usually found close to the cities); the width will
vary from a trail 10 feet wide to a 22-24 foot width for the best dirt roads. Engineers state that the roads, while
rough have a fairly good crushed rock base. The roads are built on fills in the flat country and it is generally
eight to 15 feet from the road surface to the flat land. In many places small trees (four to six inches diameter)
line the road on both sides, preventing entire freedom of gun move for tanks. The bridges across the gullies will
hold about 10 to 15 tons. The Koreans in the south have built tank bypasses. In many cases the bypasses cut
from the road are too narrow and will have to be reworked; also many of the dips on the bypasses will have to
be filled with solid material in order to give a firm footing if many track vehicles use the bypass. Dispersal
areas for Armored equipment will require utilizing villages and rice paddies. Tank dozers can be utilized very
profitably and were listed as a “must” by all commanders. It was further agreed that matting should be carried
in some quantities to help in field expedients.

e. Buildings and walls in villages were of flimsy combination of mud and small rock construction, except
roofs, which were thatch with rice straw. Buildings and walls in better sections of cities were of light wood
construction except roofs which were tile construction. There were few permanent type structures as we know
them. Practically all walls and buildings can be breached by gun fire. A tank can easily go through the
buildings with no caution about cellars or basements but with some caution as to fire hazards. Villages and
generally the cities can be set on fire easily.


Though this descriptions are based on experience from 1950 Korean war, characteristics of rice paddy are still the same. I highlighted the important part here. Unlike my initial expectation, report mentioned that rice paddies have mostly firm bottom ground, only paddies near river bank might have soft bottom. US and USSR tanks have no problem to maneuver on the wet paddy, even light tanks were able to maneuver on wet paddy field without any problem for 80% of attempt. But frequent turn, and going uphill from wet paddy to go out can be an issue so.

Currently, this game's bog / stream tile has 20 vehicle maneuverability, while fields have 80, roads have 90+, and long grass, brush, vineyard has 70. I think 20 is too harsh, but 70 is too generous for paddy. For paddy it should have following option IMO:

1) Should have 40~50 vehicle maneuverability during wet season (May ~ August), and 70~80 vehicle maneuverability during dry season (September ~ April) Is this can be achieved via map's default.xml? May I ask now can I do this?

2) Should have a bit more chance to immobilize tracked vehicles when they attempt turn, or when they go uphill on the paddy tile. (Is this possible?)

This way, uniqueness of rice paddy can be fully described in this game.

Or, do you have any better alternatives for paddy?

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 12/13/2018 3:52:33 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/13/2018 4:36:50 PM   
CCIP-subsim


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With that, can I actually make a secondary request?

It'd be really neat if the building sprites for "jungle" environment could be split off from "desert" - right now if you select a jungle map, it loads all the desert buildings. It'd be neat if it defaulted to the standard summer buildings for now, with a future possibility of creating an "Asia" set for everything from Vietnam to perhaps even Korea (although that's not quite jungle!) In fact with a few exceptions, the square stone buildings from the desert set aren't an especially great representation of jungle environments for most of the world, anyway! (you'd mostly expect lighter, wooden buildings and straw roofs, everywhere from Africa to South America to the tropics in Asia).

< Message edited by CCIP-subsim -- 12/13/2018 4:39:35 PM >

(in reply to exsonic01)
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RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/14/2018 5:01:05 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

1) Should have 40~50 vehicle maneuverability during wet season (May ~ August), and 70~80 vehicle maneuverability during dry season (September ~ April) Is this can be achieved via map's default.xml? May I ask now can I do this?


We had a discussion about this here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4565508

I think somehow the paddy field type should depend on the selected map environment. Does the area in question have anything that could be like 'autumn', 'winter' or 'spring' we have in the game?


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RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/14/2018 6:42:26 PM   
exsonic01

 

Posts: 1041
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From: Somewhere deep in appalachian valley in PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka
We had a discussion about this here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4565508

I think somehow the paddy field type should depend on the selected map environment. Does the area in question have anything that could be like 'autumn', 'winter' or 'spring' we have in the game?

Yes, Korea has 4 seasons, as well as Japan and northern part of China. Not sure about Vietnam though, as far as I know Vietnam have rainy season and dry season.

Also, any chance to implement defense structure tiles (bunker / trench)?

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 12/14/2018 9:06:08 PM >

(in reply to Veitikka)
Post #: 4
RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/14/2018 7:14:43 PM   
CCIP-subsim


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Worth mentioning of course that both Korea and Vietnam have a number of different climates and terrains, especially in terms of difference between highlands and lowlands.

By the way - does weather affect passability of terrain, other than higher chance of bogging down vehicles?

One neat feature to think about for future versions might be tile changes based on weather - e.g. during poor weather and rain, soft ground and dirt roads turning to mud, fordable streams becoming impassable, etc. By no means required but could be neat to see down the road!

(in reply to exsonic01)
Post #: 5
RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/14/2018 9:09:18 PM   
exsonic01

 

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From: Somewhere deep in appalachian valley in PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CCIP-subsim

Worth mentioning of course that both Korea and Vietnam have a number of different climates and terrains, especially in terms of difference between highlands and lowlands.

By the way - does weather affect passability of terrain, other than higher chance of bogging down vehicles?

One neat feature to think about for future versions might be tile changes based on weather - e.g. during poor weather and rain, soft ground and dirt roads turning to mud, fordable streams becoming impassable, etc. By no means required but could be neat to see down the road!

I'm also curious how weather/season/month effect of default.xml influence on the immobilization chance or maneuverability of tile. When I checked the tile info, inf and veh maneuverability were the same whether winter or summer.
Plus, we can set ground condition from menu, but I couldn't find the difference of tile information. Or am I mistaken?

Maybe it is influencing, but not shown to players via tile information.

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 12/14/2018 9:48:22 PM >

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RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/16/2018 8:06:43 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1260
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka
We had a discussion about this here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4565508

I think somehow the paddy field type should depend on the selected map environment. Does the area in question have anything that could be like 'autumn', 'winter' or 'spring' we have in the game?

Yes, Korea has 4 seasons, as well as Japan and northern part of China. Not sure about Vietnam though, as far as I know Vietnam have rainy season and dry season.


So then I think 'summer' should have soft paddy fields and 'autumn' and 'spring' should have hard paddy fields?

quote:



Also, any chance to implement defense structure tiles (bunker / trench)?


They can be possible in the future, but I think the AI opponent should made use of them somehow?


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Know thyself!

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Post #: 7
RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/16/2018 8:10:53 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1260
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CCIP-subsim

By the way - does weather affect passability of terrain, other than higher chance of bogging down vehicles?

One neat feature to think about for future versions might be tile changes based on weather - e.g. during poor weather and rain, soft ground and dirt roads turning to mud, fordable streams becoming impassable, etc. By no means required but could be neat to see down the road!


It's the 'ground condition' parameter that makes terrain harder to travel.


_____________________________

Know thyself!

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Post #: 8
RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/16/2018 9:21:20 PM   
exsonic01

 

Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/26/2016
From: Somewhere deep in appalachian valley in PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka
So then I think 'summer' should have soft paddy fields and 'autumn' and 'spring' should have hard paddy fields?

That would be fair I think. I think proper value of vehicle maneuverability for wet paddy (summer) would be 40~50 based on the "Armor in battle", which mentioned better traction of paddy than muddy road during muddy season. But I will respect your decision, you can give more or little. For other seasons, (fall, winter, and spring) paddy become dry, and IMO it would be fair to have 70 vehicle maneuverability. Frozen field would be more better but this would be the weather effect.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka
They can be possible in the future, but I think the AI opponent should made use of them somehow?

Isn't current AI properly use the tiles with higher cover / concealment / relief value in game? From my experience during gameplay, it seems that AI knows which tiles have more cover bonus and proper to use, especially during defense. But I think you would answer this better.

For a concrete bunker, I think a building tile with new tile graphic and better cover/concealment bonus would be proper. Or you can use the same property & graphic with pillbox.

For a trench, we could think of something similar to "dry stream". Similar property with stream tlie, but no water and slightly more concealment and cover value. But trench would not be a good terrain for vehicle to overcome.

For a machine gun / mortar nest, we could use a same graphic & property of defensive structure, which are generated on the map when units of this game start from dug-in position. This MG/mortar nest should be synced well with trench tile graphic IMO.

If you or any other players have a better idea, that would be great too. Countries like DPRK or Israel heavily fortified almost all terrains near important places, so those tiles would be helpful in the future.

If this game implements destructible map objects / buildings in the future, that would be even better for the description of battlefield.

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 12/16/2018 9:25:53 PM >

(in reply to Veitikka)
Post #: 9
RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/18/2018 1:41:48 AM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1260
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka
So then I think 'summer' should have soft paddy fields and 'autumn' and 'spring' should have hard paddy fields?

That would be fair I think. I think proper value of vehicle maneuverability for wet paddy (summer) would be 40~50 based on the "Armor in battle", which mentioned better traction of paddy than muddy road during muddy season. But I will respect your decision, you can give more or little. For other seasons, (fall, winter, and spring) paddy become dry, and IMO it would be fair to have 70 vehicle maneuverability. Frozen field would be more better but this would be the weather effect.


I'll think about this when we're closer to adding the paddy fields.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka
They can be possible in the future, but I think the AI opponent should made use of them somehow?

Isn't current AI properly use the tiles with higher cover / concealment / relief value in game? From my experience during gameplay, it seems that AI knows which tiles have more cover bonus and proper to use, especially during defense. But I think you would answer this better.



What I mean is that perhaps the AI opponent should treat trenches as special terrain, and concentrate its defences close to them. The trenches would not be hard to add, if they don't require extra consideration such as this.

quote:



For a trench, we could think of something similar to "dry stream". Similar property with stream tlie, but no water and slightly more concealment and cover value. But trench would not be a good terrain for vehicle to overcome.


Yes, I think trench terrain would be pretty much like the streams. Probably with the maximum 'cover' value.

quote:



If you or any other players have a better idea, that would be great too. Countries like DPRK or Israel heavily fortified almost all terrains near important places, so those tiles would be helpful in the future.


The paddy field is a nice and easy addition, but I think these defensive structures, especially something like a 'mortar nest', would need special treatment from the AI, and are therefore more controversial additions.


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RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/18/2018 5:02:18 AM   
exsonic01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka
The paddy field is a nice and easy addition, but I think these defensive structures, especially something like a 'mortar nest', would need special treatment from the AI, and are therefore more controversial additions.

OK, for time being, we could use hard building or factory instead of such structure. Maybe in the future if you guys have some good idea about bunker tile and 'nest' tile, that would be great. Trench tile and paddy tile would be great improvement as well.

(in reply to Veitikka)
Post #: 11
RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/8/2019 4:06:11 AM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2556
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka
They can be possible in the future, but I think the AI opponent should made use of them somehow?

Isn't current AI properly use the tiles with higher cover / concealment / relief value in game? From my experience during gameplay, it seems that AI knows which tiles have more cover bonus and proper to use, especially during defense. But I think you would answer this better.


What I mean is that perhaps the AI opponent should treat trenches as special terrain, and concentrate its defences close to them. The trenches would not be hard to add, if they don't require extra consideration such as this.

I think that just adding the terrain would be a good start. Besides AI preferring covered terrain (I remember that in the old version I'd make "trench-lines" out of the rubble terrain and the AI almost always manned them) I think that scenario designers could simply place objectives on trenches?

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They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to Veitikka)
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RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/8/2019 4:38:12 AM   
exsonic01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka
They can be possible in the future, but I think the AI opponent should made use of them somehow?

Isn't current AI properly use the tiles with higher cover / concealment / relief value in game? From my experience during gameplay, it seems that AI knows which tiles have more cover bonus and proper to use, especially during defense. But I think you would answer this better.


What I mean is that perhaps the AI opponent should treat trenches as special terrain, and concentrate its defences close to them. The trenches would not be hard to add, if they don't require extra consideration such as this.

I think that just adding the terrain would be a good start. Besides AI preferring covered terrain (I remember that in the old version I'd make "trench-lines" out of the rubble terrain and the AI almost always manned them) I think that scenario designers could simply place objectives on trenches?

Good idea, but introducing trench tiles from map modding wouldn't be helpful for scenario designers, as they need to fix the map and upload the map together with scenario if they wish to put bunker in their scenario. But consideration for scenario design is a very good point. I can think of 3 options.

1) Introduce trench / bunker / foxhole map tiles.
2) Introduce trench / bunker / foxhole as immovable map objects on the map, just like obstacles or Pillbox.
3) Do 1) and 2) both, but trench / bunker / foxhole from option 1) and 2) should have the same properties.

For the description of fortified terrains like DPRK or Israel, I guess 1) might make sense. For scenario design purpose, 2) would be great too. I wish to have both options available, from map modding or from scenario design.




< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 12/8/2019 4:45:25 AM >

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 13
RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/30/2019 1:02:35 AM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2556
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka
They can be possible in the future, but I think the AI opponent should made use of them somehow?

Isn't current AI properly use the tiles with higher cover / concealment / relief value in game? From my experience during gameplay, it seems that AI knows which tiles have more cover bonus and proper to use, especially during defense. But I think you would answer this better.


What I mean is that perhaps the AI opponent should treat trenches as special terrain, and concentrate its defences close to them. The trenches would not be hard to add, if they don't require extra consideration such as this.

I think that just adding the terrain would be a good start. Besides AI preferring covered terrain (I remember that in the old version I'd make "trench-lines" out of the rubble terrain and the AI almost always manned them) I think that scenario designers could simply place objectives on trenches?

Good idea, but introducing trench tiles from map modding wouldn't be helpful for scenario designers, as they need to fix the map and upload the map together with scenario if they wish to put bunker in their scenario. But consideration for scenario design is a very good point. I can think of 3 options.

1) Introduce trench / bunker / foxhole map tiles.
2) Introduce trench / bunker / foxhole as immovable map objects on the map, just like obstacles or Pillbox.
3) Do 1) and 2) both, but trench / bunker / foxhole from option 1) and 2) should have the same properties.

For the description of fortified terrains like DPRK or Israel, I guess 1) might make sense. For scenario design purpose, 2) would be great too. I wish to have both options available, from map modding or from scenario design.

I guess they'd need to be painted on in scenario editor like destruction zones.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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Post #: 14
RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/30/2019 6:32:11 PM   
exsonic01

 

Posts: 1041
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
I guess they'd need to be painted on in scenario editor like destruction zones.

That is a good idea as well! But it wouldn't be easy in current system. Try 15km x 15km then check VP-setting screen, it is really hard to paint individual 30m x 30m tile. Using destruction zone tile, I tried to depict some sort of carpet bombing craters, diameter of 60m, from 15km x 15km but it is too small to check or paint individual tiles from such large scale.

To draw bunker, trench, and fox hole from VP-setting screen, there should be a new system to enlarge the map in detail, part by part, or some other methods...

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 12/30/2019 6:33:11 PM >

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 15
RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 12/31/2019 1:19:23 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2556
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
I guess they'd need to be painted on in scenario editor like destruction zones.

That is a good idea as well! But it wouldn't be easy in current system. Try 15km x 15km then check VP-setting screen, it is really hard to paint individual 30m x 30m tile. Using destruction zone tile, I tried to depict some sort of carpet bombing craters, diameter of 60m, from 15km x 15km but it is too small to check or paint individual tiles from such large scale.

To draw bunker, trench, and fox hole from VP-setting screen, there should be a new system to enlarge the map in detail, part by part, or some other methods...

I mean in mission editor when editing deployment. You can edit destruction and no-go zones and objectives there.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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Post #: 16
RE: Request for new terrain tile: rice paddy - 1/1/2020 9:25:22 AM   
Veitikka


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From: Finland
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Not related to the rice paddy terrain type, but I've now implemented the defending AI side formation, obstacle, and pillbox pre-placement and locking in the Mission Editor. This means that you can build AI fortification lines. I'm considering if the advancing AI side formations should be allowed to be placed and locked similarly, even if they would operate pretty much independent of the AI main force. For example, this would allow having AI 'reinforcements' that start in a remote location.


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