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[FIXED] Something is VERY wrong with UNREP

 
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[FIXED] Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 12/9/2018 6:19:48 PM   
Ancalagon451

 

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Attached file has Task force 22.1 just after being given UNREP orders from T-AOE Sacramento via right-click => UNREP (if possible) => select tanker manually

The collection of observed aberrant behaviours is almost comical and include:

Units due to refuel running away from tanker

Absolute disregard of manual overrides on course and speed when I tried to move manually the ships to solve the mess

The tanker running away from the TF 22.1 ships when I finally managed to reign in then (uncliking "leader can slow down to regroup" helped with that for some reason)

The tanker ignoring manual commands to such exent that I haven't been able to reign on her

And the better for the last: the LPD Iwo Jima passing fuel to the tanker instead of the other way around , and doing so until running out of fuel herself !!!!!!

I haven't the foggiest idea of what happened here but, as of right now, UNREP seems to be basically unusable.

Ancalagon

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 6/24/2019 10:44:05 AM >
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RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 12/9/2018 6:51:32 PM   
BeirutDude


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quote:

And the better for the last: the LPD Iwo Jima passing fuel to the tanker instead of the other way around , and doing so until running out of fuel herself !!!!!!


AAAAHHHHHHH! This explains something I couldn't figure out. In early playtests, and before I removed the T-AO-E/AOs from the Task Groups, the USS Iwo Jima twice ran out of fuel. I couldn't figure out why but thought she was refueling the little boys (and in fact we DID do that for little boys in real life but not Oilers ).

So one reason I detached the oilers from the TFs was at one time there was a CVBG and the USS Detroit actually took the entire CVBG TOO the Iwo Jima TF to (I assumed) refuel her.

Oh and other times I saw her kinda detach herself from the group and sail to the Iwo Jima but still be part of the CVBG, so basically the CVBG would stretch out way to the south.

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 12/9/2018 6:54:52 PM >


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
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RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 12/9/2018 6:56:31 PM   
ARCNA442

 

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Another issue I ran into with UNREP was the supply ship unloading the chaff and flares for her decoy launchers to the ship being supplied.

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RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 12/9/2018 6:57:11 PM   
Ancalagon451

 

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Well, this mess started when TF 22.1 declared bingo and turned back to Scotland, I cancelled it, put them back to Norway, checked that the Iwo Jima has less thand a third of fuel remaining, and then ordered the UNREP.

The show starts just after that order. Also (OOT) when this mess is sorted will give it a try to the new version of "The Gaunlet".

Ancalagon

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RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 12/9/2018 7:11:04 PM   
BeirutDude


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So yes, I did update the scenario last night (and just corrected a mistake in the zip file about 12:30 p.m. EST this afternoon). I will say, yes I had some unrep issues as indicated above early on but have not seen that extreme behavior recently. Then again I was trying to tweak other things (with the Soviet AI and mission timing) and may not have noticed more recent things.

I will playtest again myself.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

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RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 12/9/2018 10:35:15 PM   
BeirutDude


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May have to use an earlier version to replicate this. I've tried two test runs this evening and in the first the Iwo Jima went to the bottom within 3 hours and in the second the Detroit went to the bottom within 3! I've tweaked it to make the initial Soviet attacks to be more coordinated and intense than in earlier versions. In the second the Iwo Jima is still good with fuel but we're just 5:30 into the scenario.

_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to BeirutDude)
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RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 12/14/2018 4:43:10 PM   
Dimitris


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That's an interesting case alright. We had a look, and here's a summary of what's happening.

The UNREP-Out flag is set (correctly so) in the database on some of the amphibs. So they start sharing fuel among themselves and even pass it back to the tanker if the UNREP order isn't given correctly.

As a result of the orders you have given, USS Detroit (AOE-4) refuels USS Austin (LPD-4), which in turn refuels USS Iwo Jima (LPH-2), which in turn has USS Detroit (AOE-4) in refuel queue... which means you have established an UNREP closed-loop, and Iwo Jima will pass the fuel back to the AOE afterwards.

And as the refuel queues get updated, the list of who-refuels-who changes, and it gets a bit confusing to follow as fuel is passed in all directions.

It gets even worse with weapons; one or two of the ships have fired some SRBOC rounds earlier in the scenario, and so SRBOC rounds are constantly passed around to fill up whichever ship is missing some rounds.

To be frank, this situation was neither envisioned nor encountered during our development tests (timeless adage: Users will find novel and interesting ways to break a system).

There are several remedies we are considering, each with its own baggage. For example:

* Enforce a rule that only bigger ships can provide UNREP to smaller ones, unless the provider is an UNREP-dedicated vessel. This would prevent big capital ships from draining the stores of smaller ships in order to sustain themselves. The catch is you can bet we'll get flooded with requests to lift this rule "because the Iwo Jima once in November 1967 provided fuel to a destroyer that had almost run out completely" and similar edge cases.

* Prohibit ships that are being replenished from servicing other ships at the same time. This is a very sensible rule 99.9% of the time (stationkeeping against the UNREP provider is tricky enough, additionally watching out for the other guy is just asking for trouble) but again it's a safe bet we'll be presented with edge cases where this historically happened.

* Proactively check if the UNREP hookup being ordered is going to create a closed-loop situation and silently refuse to do it (if considered by the AI) or actively inform the player with a message (if it's a manual order). This requires the player's understanding of why this is happening.... and let's just stop there.

Thanks for reporting this. We'll see what we can do for the next update.

In the meantime, try to perform UNREP hookups sequentially and avoid closed-loop situations if possible.

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 12/14/2018 4:46:07 PM >


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RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 12/14/2018 5:28:19 PM   
Ancalagon451

 

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quote:

In the meantime, try to perform UNREP hookups sequentially and avoid closed-loop situations if possible


I have to disagree here, I just gave ONE unrep order to TF 22.1 as a group, and manually selected the Detroit as tanker (name was wrong in the OP sorry). The attached save starts just after that one order. So the loop was make by the IA, not me.

Ancalagon

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Post #: 8
RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 12/14/2018 5:39:20 PM   
Dimitris


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If possible, can you provide a save just prior to the order being given? This would help us investigate the choices made by the AI at this point. Thanks!

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RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 12/14/2018 8:20:40 PM   
Ancalagon451

 

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Im afraid It's not possible.

I didn't have any manual save earlier than that, and the relevant autosaves dissapeared due to playtime days ago.

Ancalagon

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RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 1/24/2019 10:59:22 AM   
Dimitris


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Is anyone able to provide a pre-order save, either on this scenario or another?

This is very difficult to investigate without starting from a situation where the AI has not yet decided the order of UNREP.

Thanks.

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RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 1/27/2019 5:51:52 PM   
Dimitris


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Anyone ?

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RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 1/29/2019 9:53:23 AM   
michaelm75au


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I loaded the save and unassigned all the ships.

Load the save, and click on TF 22.1. And UnREP -> Select tanker automatically
The Iwo Jima has several ships assigned to UNREP. The AOE has one ship (from TF 22.1) assigned to UNREP from it, despite other TF 22.1 ships nearby.

If you unassign TF22.1 and AOE from refueling, and wait a couple of seconds, and try UNREPing TF22.1 again, the Iwo Jima might show up as refueling the AOE

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by michaelm75au -- 1/29/2019 11:45:39 AM >


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Michael

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RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 1/30/2019 7:04:16 AM   
ronmexico111


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If the tanker is attached to the same group it's refueling (I'm not sure if this is the case since I can't play the scenario involved) then wouldn't ordering group TF 22.1 to UNREP in effect be ordering it to UNREP itself? If the tanker was detached from the group then shouldn't ordering TF 22.1 to UNREP from the detached tanker then be the solution? Then TF 22.1 wouldn't be UNREPing from itself, it would be UNREPing from outside the formation.

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RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 1/30/2019 1:39:43 PM   
Grazyn

 

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edit: didn't read

< Message edited by Grazyn -- 1/30/2019 1:42:08 PM >

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RE: Something is VERY wrong with UNREP - 6/24/2019 10:43:51 AM   
Dimitris


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Tweaks for next update release:
* When manually ordering an UNREP rendezvous and the attempt is unsuccessful, get a pop-up mesagebox with the reason
* A unit being replenished or manouvering to get in position for UNREP is not able to service anyone
* Smaller units do not service bigger ones UNLESS they are dedicated tanker/UNREP units (so e.g. a frigate will not provide UNREP to a carrier, but an oiler or UNREP ship will)

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