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OT - Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strate... - 12/6/2018 3:47:52 PM   
Anachro


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PDF LINK HERE

quote:


The final report of the National Defense Strategy Commission is a compilation of the assessments of the National Defense Strategy and recommendations based on its analysis related not just to defense strategy, but also to the larger geopolitical environment in which that strategy must be executed. They consulted with civilian and military leaders in the Department of Defense, representatives of other U.S. government departments and agencies, allied diplomats and military officials, and independent experts.

This publication is the consensus report of the Commission. The Commission argues that America confronts a grave crisis of national security and national defense, as U.S. military advantages erode and the strategic landscape becomes steadily more threatening. If the United States does not show greater urgency and seriousness in responding to this crisis and does not take decisive steps to rebuild its military advantages now, the damage to American security and influence could be devastating.


Commentary from National Interest: Why the U.S. Military is in serious trouble?

< Message edited by wdolson -- 12/10/2018 2:46:59 AM >
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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/6/2018 4:05:29 PM   
Capt Hornblower


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This thread is Off Topic (OT), and should be labeled as such.

(in reply to Anachro)
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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/6/2018 4:12:39 PM   
danlongman

 

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Interesting article. Off topic? Maybe. I do not care but it
is a political issue which means little rational discussion can
result.
I will note here that unlike certain elements of the electorate
the Armed Forces view climate change issues as a major national
security threat.

_____________________________

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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/6/2018 6:41:42 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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As the US declines economically (relatively to other powers), then it is just by default that the military advantage will start to diminish gradually

Britain ruled the seas when it was the sweatshop of the world, the US took over once its GDP was greater than all other nations combined

The US will remain formidable, and likely to remain as #1 for as long as it remains united, but I think the days of total dominance are soon to be over

(in reply to danlongman)
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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/6/2018 6:47:51 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

As the US declines economically (relatively to other powers), then it is just by default that the military advantage will start to diminish gradually

Britain ruled the seas when it was the sweatshop of the world, the US took over once its GDP was greater than all other nations combined

The US will remain formidable, and likely to remain as #1 for as long as it remains united, but I think the days of total dominance are soon to be over


I disagree completely. There's no nation that even comes a close second in terms of overall capabilities. In sheer manpower, China wins out, but they've not the naval power to really compete on the international stage. Beyond that, nobody even comes close.

The US military can manage a serious reduction in capabilities and still be the predominant military power.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/6/2018 7:29:56 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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I said the US will remain #1...

If China keeps growing economically, then that 2nd place will become closer. Technology gap is getting reduced thanks, surprisingly, to the US economy that keeps transferring production and knowledge to China

Once China reaches economic parity, it is just a matter of time: after a few decades of similar budgets, capabilities will get closer and closer. Of course the realities of China are different, being a land based power, needing a bigger standing army to guard against China and Russia. US in the other hand can pretty much disband its army and keep ruling by navy and air force alone (I am not saying they will do it, just that they can)

Once China gets there, I can see a return to spheres of influence, with some countries totally out of reach for US

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 12/6/2018 7:31:19 PM >

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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/6/2018 9:11:00 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I said the US will remain #1...

If China keeps growing economically, then that 2nd place will become closer. Technology gap is getting reduced thanks, surprisingly, to the US economy that keeps transferring production and knowledge to China

Once China reaches economic parity, it is just a matter of time: after a few decades of similar budgets, capabilities will get closer and closer. Of course the realities of China are different, being a land based power, needing a bigger standing army to guard against China and Russia. US in the other hand can pretty much disband its army and keep ruling by navy and air force alone (I am not saying they will do it, just that they can)

Once China gets there, I can see a return to spheres of influence, with some countries totally out of reach for US


You said that the days of US total dominance are soon to be over. I disagree completely.

The US is the only world power that can project overwhelming force to multiple points on the globe simultaneously, and that's going nowhere soon. Other world powers may be able to project force, but it's extremely limited in comparison to the US.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/6/2018 9:44:17 PM   
Canoerebel


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I don't think the US will be overtaken on the outside, but there are issues inside. We're kinda tearing each other apart. And respect for the rule of law has been under attack, including by respected institutions. If that goes, we're in trouble.

Six years ago, I took a group of 20-year-olds on a long hike. They commented that "times sure were bad for our country." I smiled and told them that things were fine, compared to the harder times of Jim Crow, Lynch Law, Great Depression, Civil Unrest in the '60s, the Vietnam Era, and the Stagflation/Scandal-plagued '70s. By comparison, I assured them, 2012 was just fine. Since then, my opinion has changed considerably. There is a measurable threat that we are tearing ourselves apart.

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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/6/2018 11:01:16 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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I don't see that much of a threat, sure there is polarizing of opinions, but the US Army is unquestionable loyal to the democratically elected officer and I don't see it changing in my lifetime. And of course the US army is a force to be reckoned, that kind of rules over anything.

And this is not like Rome when the loyalty of the army shifted from Senatus Populusque Romanus to the populist army generals and this is not the early 1860s when the US army was tiny small and could not deal with insurrection and was then disbanded into newly volunteer or drafted Northern/ Southern armies

Sure, there is dissent, there is building hate, but at the end of the day the army or national guard would keep democratic order

(in reply to Canoerebel)
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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/7/2018 3:47:05 AM   
FlyByKnight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I don't think the US will be overtaken on the outside, but there are issues inside. We're kinda tearing each other apart. And respect for the rule of law has been under attack, including by respected institutions. If that goes, we're in trouble.



Overreliance and trumpeting of Social Media as some kind of world-changing enterprise has had a pretty devastating impact on discourse. When too many people build E-followings and start thinking they're smarter than they really are, inflated egos make it tough to think critically about different viewpoints.
People need to stop taking internet-based fear mongering hype so seriously, recognize that there is a feedback loop of elevated nerves and tragic events resulting from that.

< Message edited by CharlieVane -- 12/7/2018 3:49:19 AM >

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RE: OT - Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense St... - 12/7/2018 6:16:14 AM   
mogami


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Hi, Does China possess the internal resources to maintain their economy in the event of a war where they do not control the seas? What if India is allied to their opponents?

< Message edited by wdolson -- 12/10/2018 2:47:33 AM >


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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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RE: OT - Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense St... - 12/10/2018 2:49:07 AM   
wdolson

 

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Let's cut back on the political stuff. I changed the title to add OT, but I will lock it if the political stuff continues.

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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/10/2018 8:02:38 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I don't think the US will be overtaken on the outside, but there are issues inside. We're kinda tearing each other apart. And respect for the rule of law has been under attack, including by respected institutions. If that goes, we're in trouble.

Six years ago, I took a group of 20-year-olds on a long hike. They commented that "times sure were bad for our country." I smiled and told them that things were fine, compared to the harder times of Jim Crow, Lynch Law, Great Depression, Civil Unrest in the '60s, the Vietnam Era, and the Stagflation/Scandal-plagued '70s. By comparison, I assured them, 2012 was just fine. Since then, my opinion has changed considerably. There is a measurable threat that we are tearing ourselves apart.



We were tearing each other apart in the 60s, too. And the 30s. And so on.

That's not to say that there aren't serious problems, it's just that I don't see what's so supposedly fundamentally different about them this time around.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/10/2018 8:53:28 AM   
Encircled


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Not an expert on this by any stretch of the imagination, but unless China can work out a way to destroy the US Carrier capacity that can't be stopped (some sort of laser device or whatever) then only one nation will be be capable of serious world power projection away from its bases and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

Not even our carriers challenge that!

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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/10/2018 12:15:08 PM   
MakeeLearn


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America is suffering from Romeitis. SHHHH!

Somethings that can be talked about:

"China's hypersonic weapons could sink US aircraft carriers, Pentagon official says"
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/chinas-hypersonic-weapons-could-sink-us-aircraft-carriers-pentagon-official-says

"The Chinese threat that an aircraft carrier can’t stop"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-chinese-threat-that-an-aircraft-carrier-cant-stop/2018/08/07/0d3426d4-9a58-11e8-b60b-1c897f17e185_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.cac3ed557a61

Shock Trials or No, the Navy's Newest Supercarrier Is Still an Unreliable Debacle
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18318/shock-trials-or-no-the-navys-newest-supercarrier-is-still-an-unreliable-debacle



Naval Warfare Will Change Forever If Submarines Turn into Underwater Aircraft Carriers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31WyHKjTHMs

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 12/10/2018 12:39:24 PM >

(in reply to Encircled)
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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/10/2018 12:25:34 PM   
MakeeLearn


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How Not to Build a Ship: The USS Ford
https://www.pogo.org/investigation/2017/05/how-not-to-build-ship-uss-ford/

The U.S. Military's Greatest Weakness? China 'Builds' a Huge Chunk of It
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-us-militarys-greatest-weakness-china-builds-huge-chunk-25966

How 'Made in China' Could Soon be a Mark of Quality (and Ready for Combat) in Military Equipment
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-made-china-could-soon-be-mark-quality-and-ready-combat-military-equipment-33942

U.S. military comes to grips with over-reliance on Chinese imports
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-military-china/u-s-military-comes-to-grips-with-over-reliance-on-chinese-imports-idUSKCN1MC275

Watch How China Surpasses USA in New Technological Innovation And Advancement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OpyqBnPwVY

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 12/10/2018 1:32:58 PM >

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/10/2018 4:02:46 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

How Not to Build a Ship: The USS Ford
https://www.pogo.org/investigation/2017/05/how-not-to-build-ship-uss-ford/

The U.S. Military's Greatest Weakness? China 'Builds' a Huge Chunk of It
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-us-militarys-greatest-weakness-china-builds-huge-chunk-25966

How 'Made in China' Could Soon be a Mark of Quality (and Ready for Combat) in Military Equipment
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-made-china-could-soon-be-mark-quality-and-ready-combat-military-equipment-33942

U.S. military comes to grips with over-reliance on Chinese imports
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-military-china/u-s-military-comes-to-grips-with-over-reliance-on-chinese-imports-idUSKCN1MC275

Watch How China Surpasses USA in New Technological Innovation And Advancement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OpyqBnPwVY


All this focus on the technology is looking too closely at the trees. The real problem is that there are getting to be too many hot spots in the world for the US to use military forces to solve them. The troops are already being strung out by deployments. Mighty the US military may be, but it cannot be everywhere at once (where have we seen that phrase used before!)

The Roman empire fell when its enemies figured out how to fight them and the Romans did not have enough population to send troops to all the hot spots. I figure we need to get smarter about getting troubled nations to solve their own problems. Key to that is showing their peoples the truth about what their leaders are doing to keep them ignorant and obedient.


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(in reply to MakeeLearn)
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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/10/2018 4:40:30 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy



All this focus on the technology is looking too closely at the trees.




Yes there are MANY other things, but those cannot be discussed here. So I focus on those that can.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/10/2018 5:03:15 PM   
jamesjohns

 

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Just my own view but lets please be careful about current events and political discussion; plenty of other places on the net to have those.

We have a great (and small) community playing an amazing game, political topics will wreck that. Let's stick to friendly disagreements over what was the best fighter of WWII.

< Message edited by jamesjohns -- 12/10/2018 5:04:08 PM >

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/10/2018 6:22:46 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/22884/the-armys-futuristic-punisher-grenade-launcher-is-officially-dead-but-it-could-rise-again

Billions blown on the MIC for this failed weapon system. The reason Western military systems are so ineffectual is they are designed not for the benefit of the troops, but of the profits of the MIC.

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/10/2018 7:20:12 PM   
Lokasenna


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OK

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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/10/2018 7:25:15 PM   
Yaab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/22884/the-armys-futuristic-punisher-grenade-launcher-is-officially-dead-but-it-could-rise-again

Billions blown on the MIC for this failed weapon system. The reason Western military systems are so ineffectual is they are designed not for the benefit of the troops, but of the profits of the MIC.


Maybe they will warm up to a thermobaric one?

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 22
RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/11/2018 12:38:13 AM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Not an expert on this by any stretch of the imagination, but unless China can work out a way to destroy the US Carrier capacity that can't be stopped (some sort of laser device or whatever) then only one nation will be be capable of serious world power projection away from its bases and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

Not even our carriers challenge that!



US Carriers are archaic by today's standards. Thinking what worked in '45 or '73 will work in 2020 is comical.

Captor mines alone will devastate all naval vessels on the surface.

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 23
RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/11/2018 12:38:50 AM   
Rusty1961

 

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you got it.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
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RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/11/2018 12:48:25 AM   
FlyByKnight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/22884/the-armys-futuristic-punisher-grenade-launcher-is-officially-dead-but-it-could-rise-again

Billions blown on the MIC for this failed weapon system. The reason Western military systems are so ineffectual is they are designed not for the benefit of the troops, but of the profits of the MIC.

Don't worry, there are dozens of bloggers standing by to cover each of these military boondoggles as they happen. The future really is now.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 25
RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/11/2018 3:29:15 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Not an expert on this by any stretch of the imagination, but unless China can work out a way to destroy the US Carrier capacity that can't be stopped (some sort of laser device or whatever) then only one nation will be be capable of serious world power projection away from its bases and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

Not even our carriers challenge that!



US Carriers are archaic by today's standards. Thinking what worked in '45 or '73 will work in 2020 is comical.

Captor mines alone will devastate all naval vessels on the surface.


Yes, because our carriers today operate in exactly the same way with exactly the same weapons as in 1945 and 1973.

Get real.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 26
RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/11/2018 5:31:29 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Not an expert on this by any stretch of the imagination, but unless China can work out a way to destroy the US Carrier capacity that can't be stopped (some sort of laser device or whatever) then only one nation will be be capable of serious world power projection away from its bases and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

Not even our carriers challenge that!



US Carriers are archaic by today's standards. Thinking what worked in '45 or '73 will work in 2020 is comical.

Captor mines alone will devastate all naval vessels on the surface.


Yes, because our carriers today operate in exactly the same way with exactly the same weapons as in 1945 and 1973.

Get real.


Ok!

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 27
RE: Providing for Common Defense - Natl Defense Strateg... - 12/11/2018 5:32:14 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CharlieVane

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/22884/the-armys-futuristic-punisher-grenade-launcher-is-officially-dead-but-it-could-rise-again

Billions blown on the MIC for this failed weapon system. The reason Western military systems are so ineffectual is they are designed not for the benefit of the troops, but of the profits of the MIC.

Don't worry, there are dozens of bloggers standing by to cover each of these military boondoggles as they happen. The future really is now.



I know, many are in this thread making up their favorite excuses.

(in reply to FlyByKnight)
Post #: 28
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