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How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? How about bases to HQs ?

 
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How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? How ab... - 12/2/2018 12:28:12 PM   
GamesaurusRex


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How do you decide ? I have been using the support "Need/Available" numbers shown on the airbase units to judge it.
However I am not certain I am reading the support levels correctly.

The support levels are shown as "X number of support available/needed (needed air)".

I have assumed that the support "needed" relates to the airbase itself and the "(needed air)" relates to the aircraft at the base.
My assumption has been that you add the two to arrive at the total support "needed".

So for example >>> if a base shows "230/100 (150 air)", then that base would be 20 points over support capacity.

Is this correct ? Is this how others judge this ? The rules manual isn't clear about this. It merely states that no more than nine air units may be attached to each airbase, but this doesn't address what happens if the air unit support needs exceed that available. I assume there is some penalty to fatigue, attrition, and/or combat value, if exceeded.

What do you all think about this ?

What about the question of how many Air Bases may be attached to an HQ ? Opinions ?
Post #: 1
RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/2/2018 2:17:35 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
So for example >>> if a base shows "230/100 (150 air)", then that base would be 20 points over support capacity.


My understanding is the 100 is total need at the START of your turn (not at whatever point in the game you are are at. The 150 is the need of the aircraft CURRENTLY on the airbase. As such if you transfer aircraft between airbases, send some to national reserve or call some out of reserve, the 100 number then becomes irrelevant.

I try to keep the number in brackets (150 in this case) under the support available (230 here, usually 250 for a base with no problems) plus a healthy margin or say 20 points or more.

If support or supply is exceeded during logisitcs, typically planes that are damaged or unready will not be ready by the next turn. Some that are ready indeed may no longer be next turn.

For Axis there is no reason usually not to assign the maximum number of airbases to one HQ (8 for fliegerkorps, 16 for luftflotte). Only for sometimes for luftflottw HQs will range affect ratings. For the Soviet side there are the complications of HQs only prodiving air support to ground units in the same front.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
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RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/3/2018 8:05:27 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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More or less what Tel said.

A few updates ago a new ground element was introduced called 'air support' and is used solely by airbasse for supporting air groups. This is taken from new manual Sections 5.4.17 on airbases.

'Support/Need: This is almost identical to that of other combat units with two exceptions. Airbases do not receive any HQ help to resupply their needs and, their use of 'Air Support Squads' (7.2.1.2) to support aircraft assigned to them. Support/Need does not currently differentiate between the two but it does list air support need as (AV#). For Example; Support/Need 240/120 (AV 116) where (AV 116) mean it requires 116 Air Support for aircraft (as opposed 4 for ground elements). Unlike standard the Support/Need numbers, which are only updated during the logistics screen, the AV number will continually update during a player's turn. This is intended to allow players the ability to better track the aviation support needed as they transfer aircraft to and from airbases (8.2)'

Details on the Air Support Squad can be found in section 7.2.1.2.

As to how many airbases you need per front, that is a different kettle of fish. Depends on where you are in the game and you preferences. You know all airbases but VVS act the same, (some say PVO IAD as well), names being cosmetic but I use them as it helps me keep track of what I've got in them. e.g. IAD have fighter.


What follows is purely my thoughts.

Initially you only need 3 (first month), 2 x IAD, 1 x VVS.
Up until the Soviet first winter offensive you only need 4, the same plus BAD or DBAD if you don't have enough BAD.
From early Dec 41 it goes up to 6, same as above plus 1 x NBAD and 1 x ShAD.

I also use the Long range/Baltic/Black Sea HQ with 2 x DBAD each right from the off, attached to STAVKA. Note the Corps-level Air HQs attached to the Long Range HQ disband hence the use of the Baltic and Black Sea HQs which don't and can't be.

I beleive you never need any more than this, in any case if you have the full 13 Fronts active and you fill up the airbases you will exceed the Soviet 600 air group max anyway.

6-9 in each IAD. You have oodles of F/FB so use them to interdict and escort.
5-6 short-medium range bombers in BAD.
4-5 LR bombers in the DBAD set to night. Ideally long range but you don't have enough so I also use medium range set to either day of night. I also put some LR Fighters in the DBAD airbases for LR Escort (N or D) and CAP, mainly lend lease.
6-9 TacB in the ShAD. These are totally ineffective until Jan 42 so only turn on ground attack at this time.
1-3 TR/LB in the VVS for partisan supply set to night, 1 Rec in VVS and 1 of the longer ranged F/FB for CAP.
1 NF and U-2VS in the NBAD all set to night. You don't have any of these groups initially so you need to build them. Some say the U-2VS is useless, I don't, you have them, you build them so use them.




(in reply to Telemecus)
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RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/3/2018 1:09:41 PM   
GamesaurusRex


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Thanks for the input. So the "need" plus the "air need" is the potential total need for the turn and should be allowed for. Does anybody know the penalty curve details on maintenance of aircraft or attrition or whatever. How much can you exceed the limits before penalties turn prohibitive ?

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 4
RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/3/2018 1:23:39 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

Thanks for the input. So the "need" plus the "air need" is the potential total need for the turn and should be allowed for. Does anybody know the penalty curve details on maintenance of aircraft or attrition or whatever. How much can you exceed the limits before penalties turn prohibitive ?

Although remember in this case the "need" to be added is not listed - it should be about 20 or so usually.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 5
RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/3/2018 1:49:28 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

More or less what Tel said.

A few updates ago a new ground element was introduced called 'air support' and is used solely by airbasse for supporting air groups. This is taken from new manual Sections 5.4.17 on airbases.

'Support/Need: This is almost identical to that of other combat units with two exceptions. Airbases do not receive any HQ help to resupply their needs and, their use of 'Air Support Squads' (7.2.1.2) to support aircraft assigned to them. Support/Need does not currently differentiate between the two but it does list air support need as (AV#). For Example; Support/Need 240/120 (AV 116) where (AV 116) mean it requires 116 Air Support for aircraft (as opposed 4 for ground elements). Unlike standard the Support/Need numbers, which are only updated during the logistics screen, the AV number will continually update during a player's turn. This is intended to allow players the ability to better track the aviation support needed as they transfer aircraft to and from airbases (8.2)'

Details on the Air Support Squad can be found in section 7.2.1.2.

As to how many airbases you need per front, that is a different kettle of fish. Depends on where you are in the game and you preferences. You know all airbases but VVS act the same, (some say PVO IAD as well), names being cosmetic but I use them as it helps me keep track of what I've got in them. e.g. IAD have fighter.


What follows is purely my thoughts.

Initially you only need 3 (first month), 2 x IAD, 1 x VVS.
Up until the Soviet first winter offensive you only need 4, the same plus BAD or DBAD if you don't have enough BAD.
From early Dec 41 it goes up to 6, same as above plus 1 x NBAD and 1 x ShAD.

I also use the Long range/Baltic/Black Sea HQ with 2 x DBAD each right from the off, attached to STAVKA. Note the Corps-level Air HQs attached to the Long Range HQ disband hence the use of the Baltic and Black Sea HQs which don't and can't be.

I beleive you never need any more than this, in any case if you have the full 13 Fronts active and you fill up the airbases you will exceed the Soviet 600 air group max anyway.

6-9 in each IAD. You have oodles of F/FB so use them to interdict and escort.
5-6 short-medium range bombers in BAD.
4-5 LR bombers in the DBAD set to night. Ideally long range but you don't have enough so I also use medium range set to either day of night. I also put some LR Fighters in the DBAD airbases for LR Escort (N or D) and CAP, mainly lend lease.
6-9 TacB in the ShAD. These are totally ineffective until Jan 42 so only turn on ground attack at this time.
1-3 TR/LB in the VVS for partisan supply set to night, 1 Rec in VVS and 1 of the longer ranged F/FB for CAP.
1 NF and U-2VS in the NBAD all set to night. You don't have any of these groups initially so you need to build them. Some say the U-2VS is useless, I don't, you have them, you build them so use them.



Good information for people :)

I use different postures on my airbases but if you go with the rule of thumb of 6 fighters on a base or 4 bombers as a defacto then you won't go wrong with the support and supplies. Granted in 41 early months you will have a deficiency at times. Depending on my stance of either offensive air or defensive air I change up how many bases has what type of aircraft. I will not get into this to keep it simple.

The name of the base really has nothing to do with what is put on it besides the VVS and ONSAC. These two bases will support the partisan supply drops at night. Other than that you can put fighters on bomber bases and bombers on fighter bases. It is just an airbase & I have seen no other special effects pertaining to the airbase other than having a name. Please note that certain bases WILL NOT get guard status (IAB, TBAB, and other off name bases). Last caveat is the SAD bases will be disbanded in 42, plan accordingly.

This statement:

TacB in the ShAD. These are totally ineffective until Jan 42 so only turn on ground attack at this time.

This statement is 100% not true if you are talking about TacB aircraft in general for the Soviets in 41. Even TacB on Shad bases are VERY effective in 41. If you want to know how to do it just PM or email me.

This statement:

1 NF and U-2VS in the NBAD all set to night. You don't have any of these groups initially so you need to build them. Some say the U-2VS is useless, I don't, you have them, you build them so use them.

Since I changed my stance on this aircraft and actually like it now. I put 9 U-2VS on a base and have no problem at all racking up 5-30 killed units per bombing run. Sometimes more sometimes less.

This statement:

1-3 TR/LB in the VVS for partisan supply set to night, 1 Rec in VVS and 1 of the longer ranged F/FB for CAP.

Why use TR's for partisan supply? Personally TR's are better to supply drop on your ground units. Topping off ground units low on supply in my opinion >> than partisan supply. Plus by 42 the Germans pretty much has a good rail network making partisans nothing more than a nuisance. I personally would use the Heavy level bombers to cause German Inf casualties but that is just me.

But yes, the Air has to be played to the fullest for the Soviets to inflict as many casualties as can be done on the Germans. The quicker the Soviets rule the sky the better. I have always advocated this.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 6
RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/3/2018 10:35:29 PM   
GamesaurusRex


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From HardLuckYetAgain: "TacB in the ShAD. These are totally ineffective until Jan 42 so only turn on ground attack at this time.

This statement is 100% not true if you are talking about TacB aircraft in general for the Soviets in 41. Even TacB on Shad bases are VERY effective in 41."
**************

HLYA is on target with this one. The Su-2s are killers and should be kept operational as long as possible by selectively keeping the experienced units on "manual" upgrade and letting the inexperienced auto switch to IL-2s. As they switch to IL-2s, their Su-2s will be released to the pool to replace losses of the experienced units. You should also make sure these planes are assigned to your best air commanders to maximize their kills.

(In my current GC, it is Turn 51 June 1942 and I still have 3 Su-2 units operational, fully equipped with 20 planes each and 85 replacements remaining in the pool.



(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 7
RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/4/2018 12:48:29 AM   
thedoctorking


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Yes, I like the Su-2 a lot. I've had them guard convert before the IL-2 squadrons though I have never done the thing favoring them that Gamesaurus recommends.

In general, you need to be flying every turn up to 50-70% of your miles. Even if you aren't inflicting many casualties, you are building exp and morale for your squadrons.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
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RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/4/2018 1:24:21 AM   
thedoctorking


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About bases: I try to have about five or six bases per air army. Four to hold the air units (stacked two high to limit the effectiveness of airbase bombing attacks, stacked with the air HQ that has six or so AA units), and then one or two others as staging bases. The staging bases can also have short-range U2 or German recon planes based on them (that you don't mind losing to airbase bombing). The staging bases need to be within five hexes or so of all front=line hexes in the Front they are attached to. The main bases can be farther back if you are concerned about enemy airbase bombing missions.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
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RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/4/2018 6:52:57 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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I'd love to know how. I'm currently in Feb 42 and up until Jan few, 1 or 2, ever took part in any ground attack mission. They would fly ground support though. Maybe were are talking cross purposes here. It's not the aircraft but the mission that doesn't work.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
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RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/4/2018 11:46:02 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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I don't know if anyone has ever analysised airbase support need but I've carried out a little test using 5 airbase all attached to the same HQ with none of them being in combat.

First these are the airbases and what's in them.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 12/4/2018 12:56:01 PM >

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RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/4/2018 12:42:14 PM   
Chris21wen

 

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Next the status of the details of the airbases. All airbase have almost identical ground elements with 4 x 76/85 AA, 12 x 1.62 AAMG, 8 x 12.7 AAMG, 12 x 37 AA and most importantly 220 x Air support and 20 x support squads.

The support need for the empty airbase is shown as 20 (AV 0). Overall support is the sum of air support + support (220 + 20 = 240) It actual figure is 228 as it's light for some reason on AV support. All the others follow a similar pattern except the AV rating changes dependent upon the type of aircraft and that appears to be based on number of engines and reliability, maybe?

Mig-3 1e rel 13 AV 136
IL-4 2e rel 8 AV 170
SB-2 2e rel 15 AV 207

One thing I have noticed is, even with the max of nine air groups none of the aibases are suffering from lack of AV support with only 20 a/c per group. I don't have an earlier version installed so cannot test to see if it ever was ever a problem.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 12/4/2018 12:55:28 PM >

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RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/4/2018 1:05:58 PM   
MarauderPL

 

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Misunderstood - post deleted

< Message edited by MarauderPL -- 12/4/2018 1:07:41 PM >

(in reply to Chris21wen)
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RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/4/2018 1:08:19 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

Next the status of the details of the airbases. All airbase have almost identical ground elements with 4 x 76/85 AA, 12 x 1.62 AAMG, 8 x 12.7 AAMG, 12 x 37 AA and most importantly 220 x Air support and 20 x support squads.

The support need for the empty airbase is shown as 20 (AV 0). Overall support is the sum of air support + support (220 + 20 = 240) It actual figure is 228 as it's light for some reason on AV support. All the others follow a similar pattern except the AV rating changes dependent upon the type of aircraft and that appears to be based on number of engines and reliability, maybe?

Mig-3 1e rel 13 AV 136
IL-4 2e rel 8 AV 170
SB-2 2e rel 15 AV 207

One thing I have noticed is, even with the max of nine air groups none of the aibases are suffering from lack of AV support with only 20 a/c per group. I don't have an earlier version installed so cannot test to see if it ever was ever a problem.


My own experience is that the Soviets and minor Axis almost never have problems with too many aircraft. Almost always it is the Luftwaffe bases when you have airgroups of 40 or more. There is something about their aircraft and larger airgroup sizes that seems to lead to large numbers of damaged or unready aircraft in the logistics turn. Something you hardly ever notice with the minor allies.

All of your pictures show airbases with support well within what is available and also, importantly, fully supplied. If you had the support for AV at 300+ and supply need well over what is available, you would soon see plenty of damaged aircraft next turn.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 12/4/2018 1:10:42 PM >

(in reply to Chris21wen)
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RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/4/2018 4:29:36 PM   
thedoctorking


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You have to shift-click to launch ground attack missions with decent numbers of aircraft. At least for the Soviets. If you just click you get about ten planes attacking. Don't know why. I've messed with the air options window but never gotten anything like decent results.

If you are using ground attack missions to draw out and exhaust or shoot down Axis fighters, this is a necessity so that you can assign respectable numbers of fighters to your ground attack missions.

(in reply to Telemecus)
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RE: How many air units do you attach to Air Bases ? Ho... - 12/5/2018 6:15:32 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
...

All of your pictures show airbases with support well within what is available and also, importantly, fully supplied. If you had the support for AV at 300+ and supply need well over what is available, you would soon see plenty of damaged aircraft next turn.


Never bothered to check out airbase capacities before, just wanted to see what you could put in them without detriment. Increase a/c, less supply then it does.

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 16
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