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RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis)

 
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RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/13/2018 10:59:22 AM   
Taxman66


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Fafnir, it's a TAC and a Maritime Bomber, no fighter; and yes controlling London will prevent the transfer. However, I believe the USA will get a free TAC & Med Bomber when they join the war.

You may be delaying the US Mobilization bonus, but you are also delaying the very large bump up of German MPP, not to mention the plunder. Earlier fall of France also can mean less MPP spent operating planes (you might be able to get some of them there via normal movement) if your next target is Malta.

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RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/13/2018 12:19:13 PM   
bfcj


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I think you are correct about the French fighters, as I don't recall getting them.

I learned another hard lesson, in that units in production queue are lost when UK gov moves. I had an HQ, fighter, and several inf waiting to deploy in Egypt (easier than deploying in UK then transporting) and then they were gone. I suppose it makes sense, just wish I'd have remembered that from reading the manual. I'll never forget it again...

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RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/22/2018 9:21:50 PM   
Dorky8

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bfcj

What's funny about Fafnir not maintaining a strong garrison in the UK is that when he beat me (destroyed, humiliated, ...) he had German troops in the UK before he'd finished dispatching France.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Fafnir

That has multiple reasons.
- Surprise - most players do not expect a UK invasion if the battle for France has not ended.
- It delays the fall of France. Once France has fallen, the US gets a mobilization bonus
- Some players move after Sealion France units to UK. This may be an opportunity to get whole France.
- Not sure about this: If London falls before Paris it will not get the french fighters from the US.

On the downside you have to deal with that nasty France navy.





The fact that the game allows the Axis to amphibiously attack England almost immediately after (before French surrender) the surrender of Holland/Belguim is complete and utter BS. The game loses all concept of historical reality here.

This isn't an attack on your strategy Fafnir, a great player will use all strategies at their disposal.



< Message edited by Dorky8 -- 12/22/2018 9:40:09 PM >

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RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/23/2018 7:21:53 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

The fact that the game allows the Axis to amphibiously attack England almost immediately after (before French surrender) the surrender of Holland/Belguim is complete and utter BS. The game loses all concept of historical reality here.



Maybe if we reduced Germany's at start Amphibious Transport Build Limit from 2 to 1, then if they invest heavily in researching Amphibious Warfare they might be able to put 2 rather than (currently) 3 units into Amphibious Transports by the spring/summer of 1940.

What does everyone think of such a change?

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RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/23/2018 7:43:15 PM   
LLv34Mika


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IF the Germans make a Sealion attempt it usually happens with the Fallschirmjaeger units. They just bomb everything they can and when a port is free the capture it and bring in some troops. So I think that wouldn't make much difference but would take away the pretty unrealistic thing of just placing troops into boats even tough the Royal Navy is still a serious threat (superior threat!!!)

Together with the changes you made with the latest beta patch it is more realistic now. I'm speaking of the U-Boats. That was another part of the sealion tactics. The Germans can spam the channel with U-Boats to prevent the RAF from attacking amphibious ships. Even if the Germans risk placing the U-Boats right in front of the Channel coast it doesn't matter. Due to the high dive chance you can not sink a single sub in one turn even with all destroyers and fighters/bombers (that will be intercepted by the Germans... the better fighting Germans!). And even if you sink one U-Boat you can be sure that the tactical bombers, medium bombers, fighters, the other subs, the rest of the Kriegsmarine and probably one or two maritime bombers will sink 4 - 5 ships every turn for every sub you may sink.

In history those U-Boats would have been on a suicide mission doing that. Not in SC. So if an Axis player really wants to try Sealion there is always this chance. The downside of that plan is that you will need your units and your bombers there instead of North Africa. But you can not prevent it. The British will have ~3 fighters at this point. Maybe a fourth one but not more. The Germans already start with 3 fighters and will have at least 3 bombers... maybe more. If you send all your carriers to stop the incoming invasion that might help but it is still a risky mission because fighters have almost no actions points left after their second attack.

All in all I have to say that I'm not really sure what to think about but my first thought was that it is no big change since every invasion starts with bombing, bombing, bombing and paratroops.

Other thoughts?

(in reply to BillRunacre)
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RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/23/2018 9:02:25 PM   
Dorky8

 

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There should be a very large penalty for the Axis Attacking GB before the fall of France. It is very possible here and in reality it was absolutely out of the question before France surrendered. Sealion isn't realistic with overwhelming strong subs either.


(in reply to LLv34Mika)
Post #: 36
RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/23/2018 9:05:06 PM   
bfcj


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When playing the AI, invading the UK results in a significant increase in US mobilization, but not against another player. Why the difference?

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Post #: 37
RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/24/2018 4:27:29 PM   
Ktonos

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Maybe if we reduced Germany's at start Amphibious Transport Build Limit from 2 to 1, then if they invest heavily in researching Amphibious Warfare they might be able to put 2 rather than (currently) 3 units into Amphibious Transports by the spring/summer of 1940.

What does everyone think of such a change?


Game works just fine as is. My only consideration regarding the German ability to invade via sea is that the Royal Navy has no chance of intercepting the transports enroute; but this is just a nitpick. If this was broken then most of the games would have a Sea Lion. And they don't. A Sea Lion is attempted if the Allied player is complacent with UK defense, or if he entirely focus elsewhere. If this was the case in the real war there is a high chance that the Germans would Sea Lion

By July 1940 British player can have a corps in London with 5 entrenchment, another in Southampton and either an anti-air or Modgomery HQ to support them.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8


The fact that the game allows the Axis to amphibiously attack England almost immediately after (before French surrender) the surrender of Holland/Belguim is complete and utter BS. The game loses all concept of historical reality here.



How? Allied player has sea control. Especially with the French fleet still alive, this ought to be impossible. Only chance is that the German player deploys transports on the two Low Countries ports and surrounds them with German ships or subs. If he uses ships he will lose them, if subs, its one or two attacks before they "submerge" leaving the port with the transport open to attack.
What can happen, as Mika sais, is to use Paras for this, not amphibious transports. The furthest that Paras can reach London, is only from the Belgian/French borders.

Never seen this done to me in all my games. Please don't misinform the devs.

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Post #: 38
RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/24/2018 5:25:56 PM   
Dorky8

 

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Looks like Fafnir knows how to do it, ask him

You check all the ports from Belgium to Denmark every turn? how?

know your facts before you spew BS

so I'll re-post mu original post read it






quote:

ORIGINAL: bfcj

What's funny about Fafnir not maintaining a strong garrison in the UK is that when he beat me (destroyed, humiliated, ...) he had German troops in the UK before he'd finished dispatching France.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Fafnir

That has multiple reasons.
- Surprise - most players do not expect a UK invasion if the battle for France has not ended.
- It delays the fall of France. Once France has fallen, the US gets a mobilization bonus
- Some players move after Sealion France units to UK. This may be an opportunity to get whole France.
- Not sure about this: If London falls before Paris it will not get the french fighters from the US.

On the downside you have to deal with that nasty France navy.





The fact that the game allows the Axis to amphibiously attack England almost immediately after (before French surrender) the surrender of Holland/Belguim is complete and utter BS. The game loses all concept of historical reality here.

This isn't an attack on your strategy Fafnir, a great player will use all strategies at their disposal.



< Message edited by Dorky8 -- 12/24/2018 6:12:47 PM >

(in reply to Ktonos)
Post #: 39
RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/24/2018 7:47:50 PM   
nnason


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Hey I was the recipient of one of those early attacks and I am working on a counter that doesn't devastate the Brits preparation for Egypt.


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(in reply to Dorky8)
Post #: 40
RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/24/2018 9:40:36 PM   
Dorky8

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nnason

Hey I was the recipient of one of those early attacks and I am working on a counter that doesn't devastate the Brits preparation for Egypt.





It looks like its a popular tactic with some folk. My argument is it shouldn't be possible or have larger negative implications. There is no argument that the Germans could have attacked England before France fell.

It forces the Brits to withdraw the BEF early which hurts the French morale.

The game is much better served if intelligently debated than posts by bombastic know it alls like Ktonos who think they win by ridiculing.



< Message edited by Dorky8 -- 12/24/2018 9:42:35 PM >

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Post #: 41
RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/24/2018 11:11:07 PM   
Ktonos

 

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I didn't say it never happen - just that it didn't happen in my games. A strong indicator that this is NOT a popular tactic.

Yes, most of the games I will check the ports in Netherlands and Belgium and have the intention to check the seas east of UK. Any transport embarking from the Danish ports has a slim chance to land in England, and even if it does it won't take a port, merely the town north of London. Will UK crumble with 1 army landing? Can the Germans spare 3-4 or 5 air strikes to the UK when they are still dealing with the French army?

On the other hand should the game deny the German player of attempting this?
"The British don't have a single ship patrolling North Sea. From Edinburg to London there are only 2000 militiamen defending the island"
"Great! Embark 2 divisions and 200 shallow boats in merchant ships and invade the east coast~
"Uh...my fuhrer..we can't...we can't do that"
"Why so?"
"Uh...it saiz 'access denied'"

Lets talk about bullshit...Dorky


< Message edited by Ktonos -- 12/25/2018 8:04:58 AM >

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Post #: 42
RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/24/2018 11:40:03 PM   
Taxman66


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If you defend that area with the RN, you run the risk of getting it crushed by German air power.

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(in reply to Ktonos)
Post #: 43
RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/25/2018 12:54:30 AM   
Ktonos

 

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Yes, after France falls. German cant spare his bombing runs on anything else than French defenders. Not only that, but before France falls how many German air can be based along the coast?

But most importantly: You don't need to defend. You need to scout the area and retreat ships in safe distance. If the Kriegsmarine is out you have to attack it. And if the German player concentrates his air on the ships he will have a slower advance in France.

This scenario will play out in 1 in 100 games. And if the actual war was re-fought 100 times, in 1 we would have UK invaded by Germans before the fall of France.

< Message edited by Ktonos -- 12/25/2018 12:56:16 AM >

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RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/25/2018 2:47:26 AM   
Sugar

 

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The issues are the benefits you'll get from this strategy: when France finally surrenders, Britain is also about to fall completely with Syria in german hands, and the usual downsides from DoWing Tunesia and Algeria to get Spain are not existing.

This way Britain has to fight on 3 theaters: England, Libya and Casablanca, with Egypt pinced from 2 sides. Yugoslavia won't join the Allies, if London is in german hands and gladly join the Axis, freeing troops aginst Russia, and Greece isn't a threat any longer as well, cause the DE depends on the yugoslavian DE.

Probable benefits: France surrenders including Algeria, Tunesia and Syria, Yugoslavia joins the Axis, Spain joins the Axis without the costs of the DE, Greece isn't a threat anymore, and should the Allied player be so stupid to move the brit. capital to Alexandria to improve supply in its main remaining theatre, GB will also surrender after the fall.

Russia doesn't get the persian convoy, and even the northern convoy won't help, especially after the destruction or surrender of the RN.

Next issue is the french NM: it`s probably not even necessary to take Algier, the NM usually gets to 0 earlier, and Algier can't be supported by the already overstretched Brits. The fighting value of the french is even worse than the italian, with their NM totally crippled, so essentially the Brits are on their own for a long period.

My suggestion would be to stiffen France' resistance in case the "Take all of France" decision. The downsides of Seelöwe are strictly enough imho.

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RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/26/2018 4:53:04 PM   
Dorky8

 

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A simple solution is to make port strength 0 when conquered by Axis from Le Havre to Holland, increase 1 pt per turn. To argue that the Axis could have taken Holland or Belgium or Calais and two weeks later, while still at war with France, mount a major amphibious assault on GB is just silly

< Message edited by Dorky8 -- 12/26/2018 5:38:47 PM >

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RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/26/2018 7:30:28 PM   
Fafnir

 

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There is only one spot (Calais to Dover) where Germany can do an amphibious assault without risk of getting attacked.
So UK has to defend Dover and/or may attack the port in Calais so this can't be done anymore.

If the UK does not defend itself and sends out all navy elsewhere it has to take the consequences.
Doing this would be not historical so the results are also not historical.
Futhermore if Axis and Allies have to react historically why does anybody expect a different outcome to the historical one.
I think this is the strenght of this game that you can try out 'what if'.

When playing as Allies I see only about 2 in 10 times Sealion and half of them are a failure.

Not accepting Vichy while doing Sealion may only be an option if the Allies make mistakes e.g. remove all Units from UK, Tunesia, Algeria.




< Message edited by Fafnir -- 12/27/2018 6:38:22 AM >

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RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/26/2018 8:22:50 PM   
Ktonos

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fafnir

There is only one spot (Calais to Dover) where Germany can do an amphibious assault without risk of getting attacked.
So UK has to defend Dover and/or may attack the port in Calais so this can't be done anymore.

If the UK does not defend itself and sends out all navy elsewhere it has to take the consequences.
Doing this would be not historical so the results are also not historical.
Futhermore if Axis and Allies have to react historically why does anybody expect a different outcome to the historical one.
I think this is the strenght of this game that you can try out 'what if'.

When playing as Allies I see only about 2 in 10 times Sealion and half of them are a failure.



Couldn't agree more. Thats exactly what I am saying. UK has to defend itself or potentially face the consequences. If Dorky wants to move every single allied ship to mediterranean to destroy the Italian fleet he can't whine if he can't stop a random invasion on England before France falls.

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Post #: 48
RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/26/2018 8:44:06 PM   
Dorky8

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

A simple solution is to make port strength 0 when conquered by Axis from Le Havre to Holland, increase 1 pt per turn. To argue that the Axis could have taken Holland or Belgium or Calais and two weeks later, while still at war with France, mount a major amphibious assault on GB is just silly



This isn't a "what if" its ridiculous

The only (Fafnir) argument is its part of my game strategy so its ok


Ktonos is there a reason you always have to be a condescending jackass









< Message edited by Dorky8 -- 12/26/2018 8:58:01 PM >

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RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/28/2018 2:23:18 PM   
Ktonos

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

This isn't a "what if" its ridiculous


Yes it is. Every strategy game on historical wars is in essence a "what if"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

Ktonos is there a reason you always have to be a condescending jackass



Only with you Dorky. You have been disrespectful towards many people here, and every other post of yours is condescending. A bit hypocritical to demand others to behave themselves with you, yes?

(in reply to Dorky8)
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RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/28/2018 7:20:08 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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I am very interested in the subject under discussion, but find the bickering rather distracting. Please cut it out so we can concentrate on considering how to make the game better.

As this discussion affects both our recent games and is being discussed in the forums for both games, can I also ask that all discussion of it is continued in this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4573694&mpage=1�

It'll make it easier to track everyone's thoughts and hopefully get us a wide enough viewpoint on whether or not we should change anything here.

Thanks

Bill

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RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 12/28/2018 7:29:44 PM   
nnason


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Hey everyone,
Gaming is fun and sometimes even relaxing. Some of us are way way to serious.

I am sure the developers appreciate all constructive comments. Sarcasm is not needed to place emphasis on our issues.

I for one can find many things to be improved in SC3 but I also find many more things I love about the game. I play for the love and put up with the needed improvements. As for improvements the developers must be lauded for their very diligent listening to us and then implementing changes. "1.16 Beta" is a good example of listening to the fans.

Some of us need to dial down their emotions and just say what you don't like and constructively how to fix it. And maybe your improvements will be incorporated into a mod (like the ongoing Beta Navy mod) or into another incremental SC3 improvement.



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(in reply to Ktonos)
Post #: 52
RE: Tourney game: Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 5/22/2019 1:24:48 PM   
Hartmann301

 

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I didn't get a chance to read everything here, but how did Estonia not get annexed by the Soviets?

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Post #: 53
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