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Helicopter BPs - 11/23/2018 12:34:53 PM   
goodwoodrw


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BPs are not flexible enough. on a big map its a bit of guess work where put them. they should be able to be moved. I know they can moved near a HQ but, that ok in a defensive situation, but in attack it pointless moving them near a HQ because you wouldn't normally risk your HQ at the pointy end of the battle. Am I missing something here

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RE: Helicopter BPs - 11/23/2018 12:39:27 PM   
gbem

 

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i think BPs should be movable with a command delay tbh... +1 to this guy...

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RE: Helicopter BPs - 11/23/2018 12:56:20 PM   
kevinkins


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+1

I am finding A10s don't seem to loiter enough around the battlefield. They also seem too rigidly focused on the initial placement of "the smaller circle" and they don't come around in an improvised search and destroy mission when they still have some load out. Maybe they move on to help adjoining formations hypothetically off map i.e. the A10 has a radius of operation larger than my map size. Don't get me wrong, I have gotten CAS to work and a attack helo saved the day last night finding and firing on armor away from its TRP. That was cool.

Kevin

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RE: Helicopter BPs - 11/23/2018 12:58:45 PM   
goodwoodrw


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Fixed wing aircraft are not as great a problem, as helos because you pick a spot on the map or a line after the battle has started


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RE: Helicopter BPs - 11/23/2018 1:46:06 PM   
kevinkins


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I have had more luck with helos. They seem more flexible and disregard the TRP - like I saw last night. Of course we all have limited experience at this point. I may change my mind later today . I do like your idea.

Kevin

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RE: Helicopter BPs - 11/23/2018 8:11:42 PM   
Werezak

 

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At least allow us to pick up and place existing BPs during deployment like you can do for artillery.

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RE: Helicopter BPs - 11/30/2018 11:29:15 AM   
nikolas93TS


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Helicopters operate in a fundamentally different way than fixed-wing close air support. Since the advent of anti-tank helicopters in the early to mid-1970s (as opposed to the gunship helicopters of Vietnam era, or similar Soviet Afghanistan deviations for COIN purposes) the tactics have been more or less the same.

  • 1) Helicopter commander receives orders to plan for deployment on order to the designated battle position. This is a zone with a line of sight to the desired engagement area and some sort of protective terrain to hide behind. These battle positions are usually designated at brigade or higher HQs in coordination with supported units (for example, attack helicopter units in the US Army are never OPCON to an echelon below brigade). In nearly all cases, they are allocated before the battle during the mission planning process. Generally, several mission alternatives are provided, with various trigger points.
  • 2) Helicopter refuel and rearm in a Forward Arming and Refueling Point (FARP). FARP in US doctrine is located approximately 17 to 25 kilometres from the forward edge of the battle area (FEBA) or forward line of own troops (FLOT).
  • 3) Helicopters loiter at a Forward Assembly Area (FAA) while waiting for a mission, usually landed and powered off to save fuel.
  • 4) When activated for a mission, helicopters pause in a Holding Area (HA) just behind the forward battle area while final coordination and recon are conducted.
  • 5) On final go-ahead, helicopter unit advances via covered Attack Route (AR) to their BP.
  • 6) Within the BP, each pilot selects a Firing Position (FP).
  • 7) Pilots execute target engagement drill:
  • a. Spotter identifies the target in BR area. This can be a scout helicopter or some observer from the supported units.
  • b. Target is handed off to an attack helicopter by specifying type and location.
  • c. Attack helicopter pop-up to clear cover sufficiently to acquire the target.
  • d. While hovering, attack helicopter identifies the target and engages.
  • e. Upon resolution of engagement, helo drops back behind cover and proceeds to a new FP to avoid being pinned by enemy fire.
  • f. Total time of exposure should be <20 seconds for max range SACLOS weapon such as TOW, <10 seconds for unguided ordnance like rockets.

    The point is that helicopters do not cruise across the terrain looking for targets and making moving firing passes the way a fixed-wing aircraft would. Helicopters are too valuable and fragile asset to allow manoeuvre commanders to make precipitous and possibly ill-advised on-the-spot redeployment decisions. Either they come in as planned, or they abort completely.

    Still, we have introduced HQ assist command on popular demand (also to allow for a more flexible use of pure gunship helicopters like AH-1G or some Mi-8 variants), and helicopters are now significantly more survivable.

    (in reply to Werezak)
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    RE: Helicopter BPs - 11/30/2018 12:27:19 PM   
    22sec

     

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    The one caveat to what Nik said though is how the Soviet’s at time employed Hinds in an attack. It was not uncommon for a flight of Hinds to attack a position while on the move. The Hind was not built for pop attacks. I point this out because it’s possible, for anyone inclined to do so, to mod a flight of Hinds to be made into “fixed wing” aircraft. Just trust me, if the AI is playing as the Soviets and you’re the one under attack from a flight of Hinds on the move you won’t think it’s soncool.

    < Message edited by 22sec -- 11/30/2018 12:28:33 PM >


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    RE: Helicopter BPs - 11/30/2018 3:15:02 PM   
    gbem

     

    Posts: 187
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    quote:

    Helicopters operate in a fundamentally different way than fixed-wing close air support. Since the advent of anti-tank helicopters in the early to mid-1970s (as opposed to the gunship helicopters of Vietnam era, or similar Soviet Afghanistan deviations for COIN purposes) the tactics have been more or less the same.

    1) Helicopter commander receives orders to plan for deployment on order to the designated battle position. This is a zone with a line of sight to the desired engagement area and some sort of protective terrain to hide behind. These battle positions are usually designated at brigade or higher HQs in coordination with supported units (for example, attack helicopter units in the US Army are never OPCON to an echelon below brigade). In nearly all cases, they are allocated before the battle during the mission planning process. Generally, several mission alternatives are provided, with various trigger points.
    2) Helicopter refuel and rearm in a Forward Arming and Refueling Point (FARP). FARP in US doctrine is located approximately 17 to 25 kilometres from the forward edge of the battle area (FEBA) or forward line of own troops (FLOT).
    3) Helicopters loiter at a Forward Assembly Area (FAA) while waiting for a mission, usually landed and powered off to save fuel.
    4) When activated for a mission, helicopters pause in a Holding Area (HA) just behind the forward battle area while final coordination and recon are conducted.
    5) On final go-ahead, helicopter unit advances via covered Attack Route (AR) to their BP.
    6) Within the BP, each pilot selects a Firing Position (FP).
    7) Pilots execute target engagement drill:
    a. Spotter identifies the target in BR area. This can be a scout helicopter or some observer from the supported units.
    b. Target is handed off to an attack helicopter by specifying type and location.
    c. Attack helicopter pop-up to clear cover sufficiently to acquire the target.
    d. While hovering, attack helicopter identifies the target and engages.
    e. Upon resolution of engagement, helo drops back behind cover and proceeds to a new FP to avoid being pinned by enemy fire.
    f. Total time of exposure should be <20 seconds for max range SACLOS weapon such as TOW, <10 seconds for unguided ordnance like rockets.

    The point is that helicopters do not cruise across the terrain looking for targets and making moving firing passes the way a fixed-wing aircraft would. Helicopters are too valuable and fragile asset to allow manoeuvre commanders to make precipitous and possibly ill-advised on-the-spot redeployment decisions. Either they come in as planned, or they abort completely.

    Still, we have introduced HQ assist command on popular demand (also to allow for a more flexible use of pure gunship helicopters like AH-1G or some Mi-8 variants), and helicopters are now significantly more survivable.

    as 22sec stated the soviet hind wasnt operated in such a method... rather it operated in a aircraft esque situation providing firesupport for the infantry it just dropped off

    also shouldnt BPs at least be movable or reassignable?

    (in reply to 22sec)
    Post #: 9
    RE: Helicopter BPs - 11/30/2018 3:42:52 PM   
    Werezak

     

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    By reassignable do you mean that BPs could be shared between helicopter flights?


    Also, allow us to move BPs during the DEPLOYMENT setup please.

    (in reply to gbem)
    Post #: 10
    RE: Helicopter BPs - 12/8/2018 9:58:06 AM   
    Perturabo


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    Joined: 11/17/2007
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: nikolas93TS

    Still, we have introduced HQ assist command on popular demand (also to allow for a more flexible use of pure gunship helicopters like AH-1G or some Mi-8 variants), and helicopters are now significantly more survivable.

    Why aren't pure gunship helicopters coded as aircraft?

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