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suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets

 
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suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 3:25:44 AM   
gbem

 

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the M1A1 (HA) apparently gets access to the m829a1 APFSDS.... the 3bm46 svinets is its appropriate counterpart which came out at 1991 is however unavailable to the T-80U...
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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 2:00:16 PM   
exsonic01

 

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M829A1 only appears from 1991 in this game, and M1A1s doesn't even have a full stack of M829A1s in this game, it mixed with M829 and M829A1. M829A1 is actually fielded from 1988, but devs used Gulf war ammo supply data, claiming that M829A1s would take some time to be supplied to the field units, and US army didn't push the manufacturing and supply of M829A1 until Gulf war breaks out. Using Gulf war data seems not logical to me, but oh well, I can make my own database.

I think 3BM46 also get the similar criteria. You can make your own datasheet including 3BM46.

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 2:32:19 PM   
gbem

 

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i think its only logical to add the 3bm46 svinets for balance reasons... the svinets after all was made in 1991 and would have been at least readily available by then...

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 3:51:16 PM   
gbem

 

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that reminds me... how do you create a new database? ive tried copy pasting and renaming the default folder but the game doesnt seem to detect it...

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 3:53:15 PM   
22sec

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gbem

that reminds me... how do you create a new database? ive tried copy pasting and renaming the default folder but the game doesnt seem to detect it...


You then need to go in to the era.xml file and change the name and save the file. The game will then recognize.

_____________________________


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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 3:59:10 PM   
nikolas93TS


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The Svinets-1 and Svinets-2 APFSDS ammunition is supposedly in development since the late-1990s or early-2000s. Some sources proclaim that it has been ready for series production since 2002 or 2005. While it has been known for quite a while that both the Soviet Union and Russia have been working on the development of more advanced APFSDS ammunition for the T-72, T-80 and T-90 tanks - a number of different types of prototype ammunition has even been pictured - many recent photographs confirm that most of Russia's tanks are still supplied with old ammunition from the mid-1980s, probably taken from former Soviet stocks. First pictures that had shown them in production date from 2016.

@exsonic01 it will be fixed in next patch: although I won't give M1A1 (HA) full allotment of M829A1, I still tend to follow field reports rather than assumption it would have been pushed into full production earlier than historical. A lot of stocks were deployed and depleted for Desert Storm, it was not considered as minor conflict.

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 4:02:50 PM   
gbem

 

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according to vasily fofanov and wikipedia the svinets-1 designated 3bm59 and svinets-2 designated 3bm60 are different shells to the 3bm46 svinets both of which came much later than the 3bm46 which came out before the fall of the soviet union



"Research topic "Svinets-1". A brand new round with extremely high elongation tungsten alloy penetrator, utilizing a 4-petal finned composite sabot with two areas of contact, and subcaliber stabilizing fins. This round has a total length of 740mm and so does not fit in traditional T-72 autoloaders. The autoloader upgrade is straightforward and is assumed to have been carried out on newly built T-90 tanks that are therefore compatible with this round. The indications 3BM-42M/3BM-44M are unconfirmed: even though this is what is written on the body of the round in the released picture, it is unclear if the round has been fielded and therefore already awarded a GRAU designation; Rosoboronexport sales literature still refers to it simply as "high-performance APFSDS round". "

"Research topic "Svinets" initiated 1985. An advanced high elongation uranium monoblock round, utilizing a finned composite sabot with two areas of contact, and subcaliber stabilizing fins. This is the APFSDS round that takes the most advantage of the total projectile length allowed by the Soviet autoloaders. This is by far the most potent Soviet APFSDS round which corresponds to the performance of contemporary NATO APFSDS rounds, and allows to bridge the gap between 125mm ammo capability and advances in NATO armor of the last decades. "

< Message edited by gbem -- 11/20/2018 4:06:50 PM >

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 4:08:18 PM   
gbem

 

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according to vasily fofanov at least... the svinets is the latest and last soviet round... it makes sense that it remains the last round to be used by the T-80U however in low numbers

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 5:11:54 PM   
gbem

 

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also for balance reasons i see the 3bm46 svinets as the appropriate counterweight to the m829a1 apfsds with its deployment being justified by both balance and historical reasons (its the last deployed soviet round)

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 5:29:10 PM   
exsonic01

 

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Do you have some evidence about whether the svinets were manufactured before 1991 or not? If yes, how many?

Like Nikolas mentioned, it is true that there was a intense research about new DU penetrator from Soviet Union, and they might manufactured a few. But they never manufactured in huge amount, enough to issue to first line tanks around this game's time frame. That was possible from late 1990s ~ early 2000s. Manufacturing, procurement, and supplying is totally different from R&D. "Finished research" never means "they are issued to front line units". Supply takes some time too. Though it was manufactured from 1991, it never means that those shells are all supplied to all units in 1991. Procurement and supply is very slow process in any army around the world.

Me and other beta tester provided some documents regarding total manufacturing / procurement data of M829 and M829A1 from Janes ammunition hand book and US congress. There are good evidence of:
1) M829A1 is produced 177,000 rounds by 1993
2) By 1988, U.S Army had 55,000 M829 rounds of which production started in 1984 its inventory. M829 is produced far less than M829A1.
Based on those, US Army should be able to fill about 2,000 M1A1 HA's ammunition storage fully with M829A1 in 1991. But look at his comment, he is still not convinced.

You better find more documents about manufacturing, procurement, and logistics, which could work as a direct evidence of 1991 Soviet tanks with Svinets. That would only convince devs of this game.



< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 11/20/2018 5:42:49 PM >

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 5:34:18 PM   
exsonic01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nikolas93TS
@exsonic01 it will be fixed in next patch: although I won't give M1A1 (HA) full allotment of M829A1, I still tend to follow field reports rather than assumption it would have been pushed into full production earlier than historical. A lot of stocks were deployed and depleted for Desert Storm, it was not considered as minor conflict.


I'm glad about your comments regarding M829/M829A1 issue. I'm still skeptical about using Gulf War ammunition procurement data to hypothetical European Cold War scenario. But I also respect your opinion.

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 6:01:19 PM   
gbem

 

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evidence of manufacture during 1991 yes as vasily fofanov puts on his website
"Svinets" (3BM-46 projectile; 3BM-48 projectile assembly) (DOI 1991)
Research topic "Svinets" initiated 1985. An advanced high elongation uranium monoblock round, utilizing a finned composite sabot with two areas of contact, and subcaliber stabilizing fins. This is the APFSDS round that takes the most advantage of the total projectile length allowed by the Soviet autoloaders. This is by far the most potent Soviet APFSDS round which corresponds to the performance of contemporary NATO APFSDS rounds, and allows to bridge the gap between 125mm ammo capability and advances in NATO armor of the last decades.

fofanov clearly indicates the 3bm46 as the "This is by far the most potent Soviet APFSDS round" despite the existence of the svinets-1 and svinets-2... which indicates the 3bm46 as at least a pre collapse (1991) era round

fofanov also states its introduction occured at 1991 (DOI)

i unfortunately dont have much data concerning its manufacture and distribution... it was a round in production for a relatively short time before the sudden and abrupt change in government... it would be present but not in great numbers... however if i were to assume a hypothetical european cold war scenario it is only logical to assume the svinets to be manufactured in greater numbers...

lastly it would also balance out the M829A1 apfsds... id assume however the round would not be as common as its predecessor the 3bm32 vant... however for all intents and purposes one can at least add a few rounds in a similar way to the m1a1(HA) mixing up the vant with the svinets...

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 6:03:40 PM   
gbem

 

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ohh i forgot to mention... it is totally unfair to use manufacturing quantity as a metric for adding objects for the soviets as the economic decline makes the soviet economy incapable of supporting mass production... it is safe to assume however that in events leading to war the svinets would be manufactured in greater numbers

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 6:11:06 PM   
exsonic01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gbem
ohh i forgot to mention... it is totally unfair to use manufacturing quantity as a metric for adding objects for the soviets as the economic decline makes the soviet economy incapable of supporting mass production... it is safe to assume however that in events leading to war the svinets would be manufactured in greater numbers

Like someone mentioned, you can make your database for your own world. This is sandbox game. Someday devs will publish a manual for modding. You could follow that to make your own database. You can even try modern mod if you want.

Plus, if we just make everyone rich and make whatever they want, I can bring more dangerous toys for US army. As far as I know this game's default database is very conservative to data selection, tried to free from such "assumptions".

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 11/20/2018 6:14:51 PM >

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 6:24:19 PM   
gbem

 

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well it was introduced at the very least... its not exactly out of place to add it to the game...
also the tanks-encyclopedia mentions the 3bm46 in use by late T-80Us along with the 9m119 refleks (a 1990 atgm)

The commander’s machine gun is a simple pintle-mounted one. The 9M119 Refleks (AT-11 Sniper) guided missile are provided for the main gun, each having a Long-Rod penetrator (HVAPFSDS) 3BM46. For active concealment, outside the smoke projectors, a special camouflage paint distorts the tank’s appearance in the visible and IR wavebands. The 1A46 fire control system includes a laser range finder, ballistics computer, advanced 1G46 gunner’s main sights, and thermal imaging sights.


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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 6:31:20 PM   
gbem

 

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also its not like the game doesnt include newly released tank models to the game...

"The first series tank was delivered on 25 October 1979. By 1982 the first batch of 380 Leopard 2 tanks was completed"

the leopard 2 base model is available by the 1st month of 1980 ingame despite mere months after its release and despite having less than 380 leopard 2s... its odd that stuff like the T-80UM (produced 1990) and the 3bm46 (1991) dont appear... despite the 1991 date limit...

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/20/2018 10:55:33 PM   
nikolas93TS


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Despite pioneering APFSDS shells with the introduction of the smoothbore guns, the Soviet Union never had the technology to mass produce true long rod tungsten or depleted uranium projectiles until the mid 1980s. Even then, the long rod APFSDS rounds fielded by the Red Army had sheathed penetrators when American APFSDS rounds were mostly monobloc.

Exsonic01, I am glad you respect that. Experience while working on database over the years has teached me to always be reserved, double-check anything and have solid evidence when possible. I don't want to pass-off as a smart-ass, and I also respect your opinion and I am always very glad when you dig out some new data or notice something that I oversaw; it is only that I need to keep things quite balanced.

As for Vasiliy Fofanov's Modern Russian Armor Page, it is very outdated. I think it was not updated in more than a decade and should not be used as source. Jane's is open-source intelligence provider, and should be treated as such. They fill up the holes when nothing else is available, but should be taken with grain of salt as definite source. Sometimes they might confuse some technical data, or use less-than-reliable contacts. Tanks-encyclopedia is not even a source, and T-80UM was project from 1990s.



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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/21/2018 4:36:16 AM   
gbem

 

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vasily fofanovs page may be dated but that doesnt necessarily mean the information is incorrect... if i found an old document or review on ww2 equipment id still be willing to trust it XD... i havent found other sources that indicate the 3bm46 wasnt introduced by 1991
anyways ive rummaged thru the internet for some time and found multiple sources quoting its introduction at 1991...
no data concerning quantity manufactured though... safe to assume that it was however

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/21/2018 7:20:49 AM   
gbem

 

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The sources ive mentioned on the vant indicate the 3bm46 was introduced on 1991... and an extra source... kotsch 88 indicates the 3bm46 was introduced at 1990... this means the 3bm46 is undeniably present during 1991... the real question is availability

< Message edited by gbem -- 11/21/2018 7:26:46 AM >

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/22/2018 1:31:36 AM   
Mousehold

 

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I've seen several threads from you asking for tweaks, gbem. You'll probably have better luck making these minor adjustments yourself than waiting for the (sole) developer or community to make them for you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gbem

that reminds me... how do you create a new database? ive tried copy pasting and renaming the default folder but the game doesnt seem to detect it...



To do that, open up your \Armored Brigade\data\database\ folder, make a copy of the \default\ folder, and name it gbem. Then go into the \database\gbem\ folder you just created and open the eras.xml file with Notepad. On that line that reads <string name="databaseID" value="default" />, change value="default" to value="gbem"

Now switch to your personal "gbem" database from the launcher "Change Settings" option, then make the changes you desire using the database editor in the game. (You could also make them with a text editor in the .xml files if you're feeling brave.)

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RE: suggestion: add the 3bm46 svinets - 11/22/2018 9:22:35 PM   
gbem

 

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ive already done so... thanks m8

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