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C&C between allied units

 
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C&C between allied units - 11/10/2018 11:16:24 AM   
Hghx-0

 

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I really like the game, but i got one question that is quite important for me.

Not sure that it wasn't mentioned before, but does the game model C&C between allied units? Playing beta right and now and noticed that once one unit gets the information on enemy then immediately all units that have a LOS start shooting, are they so fast and skilled or the game distributes intelligence data between all allied units?
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RE: C&C between allied units - 11/10/2018 12:21:15 PM   
Hexagon


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I am curious to about how works this because i see a lot of situations where same target trigger more than 1 attack and specially missiles arrive after a MBT kill the target... i think some coordination is needed to made that at least vehicles in same formation (platoon and company) skip attack a target a friendly unit is attacking... reserve shot target after mate do his shot, if fails do it if not a saved shell is a earned one.

(in reply to Hghx-0)
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RE: C&C between allied units - 11/10/2018 2:06:07 PM   
CapnDarwin


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If several units are covering an area and a target pops up, there is really no time for everyone to call out and see who sees it, who is going to shoot, what if they miss, or yell "dibs". You are going to shoot at anything that is a threat in your view. That may mean 3 tanks and a slower ATGM shot on one target. Unless you have the time to really set up your coverage and overlap you shoot. It's a complex issue in real life and the game AI has to deal with that as well.

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RE: C&C between allied units - 11/10/2018 3:55:43 PM   
Hexagon


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Well, at least in smaller formations like sections and platoons units can prevent shot all the same target, is specially when you see 2 bradleys from same section shooting the same target and if as bonus a MBT score the kill earlier... add to this that MBTs are using their best AT ammo VS non MBTs and AFVs with missiles and autoguns love use missiles when the autogun can do the job VS light armor... i enter in stingy mode


"You shoot missile to a BTR and your mate do the same and in the end 2 MBT shoot him and kill the BTR using APSFDS ammo???"


< Message edited by Hexagon -- 11/10/2018 3:58:17 PM >

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RE: C&C between allied units - 11/10/2018 3:56:14 PM   
Hghx-0

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CapnDarwin

If several units are covering an area and a target pops up, there is really no time for everyone to call out and see who sees it, who is going to shoot, what if they miss, or yell "dibs". You are going to shoot at anything that is a threat in your view. That may mean 3 tanks and a slower ATGM shot on one target. Unless you have the time to really set up your coverage and overlap you shoot. It's a complex issue in real life and the game AI has to deal with that as well.


It's not a problem of shooting actually, it's a problem of sharing the intelligence, i am ok with 5 modern US ATGM missiles launched at one BTR-60, it's realistic, they see and engage.
Luckily the game has a function to hold fire, so i'm using it to avoid such situations

But units should have their own 'pool' of other units that they are aware of, like it is now implemented in Combat Mission, and i was asking about this feature..

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RE: C&C between allied units - 11/11/2018 11:14:44 AM   
Hexagon


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Obviously game is going to need improvements, what i see in videos is showing me a solid game but perfection needs time, testing and coffe, a lot of coffe

I think some features and AI refination are needed, a better target-ammo selection for example at least in a modern period in 60s or earlier period i dont see target selection bad as is now.

Game is going to be the release of year in Matrix, expect improvements come to made it better, like in FOGII.

(in reply to Hghx-0)
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RE: C&C between allied units - 11/11/2018 4:52:17 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hghx-0

I really like the game, but i got one question that is quite important for me.

Not sure that it wasn't mentioned before, but does the game model C&C between allied units? Playing beta right and now and noticed that once one unit gets the information on enemy then immediately all units that have a LOS start shooting, are they so fast and skilled or the game distributes intelligence data between all allied units?


There's no 'borg spotting', where all friendly units instantly engage the enemy when it's spotted. However, there is global information about spotted units, but the friendly unit has to look in that direction to see that enemy unit. For example, in real life it's possible to mark targets with tracers, so in my opinion it's not unrealistic to share the information with others.


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RE: C&C between allied units - 11/11/2018 5:02:12 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

I am curious to about how works this because i see a lot of situations where same target trigger more than 1 attack and specially missiles arrive after a MBT kill the target... i think some coordination is needed to made that at least vehicles in same formation (platoon and company) skip attack a target a friendly unit is attacking... reserve shot target after mate do his shot, if fails do it if not a saved shell is a earned one.


It's not simple to calculate who should engage what. There are some mechanisms that prevent all units from engaging the same target, and the units can even switch targets to keep them suppressed.

Think about this: the unit A is using an autocannon to engage a tank. There's just a slight chance to damage it. Then comes the unit B, that has an ATGM or cannon that can kill the same target easily. Should the unit A stop engaging the target? Should they keep going through all their weapons and ammunition, estimate the chances to kill based on the myriads of data (penetration, protection, range, angle of impact etc.) available? That can get complicated. Would they do that in real life?


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RE: C&C between allied units - 11/11/2018 5:28:16 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hghx-0

But units should have their own 'pool' of other units that they are aware of, like it is now implemented in Combat Mission, and i was asking about this feature..


This can lead to new issues too. For example two units next to each other, looking at the same direction but seeing different enemies.


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RE: C&C between allied units - 11/11/2018 5:30:30 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Obviously game is going to need improvements, what i see in videos is showing me a solid game but perfection needs time, testing and coffe, a lot of coffe

I think some features and AI refination are needed, a better target-ammo selection for example at least in a modern period in 60s or earlier period i dont see target selection bad as is now.

Game is going to be the release of year in Matrix, expect improvements come to made it better, like in FOGII.


Sure, if the game sells well I'll spend the following years on improving it.


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RE: C&C between allied units - 11/12/2018 8:51:11 AM   
Hexagon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

Sure, if the game sells well I'll spend the following years on improving it.


And i expect you have a lot of work but with free time of course, but not a lot... at least expect you dont enterin R.R Martin mode

Expect you have a soft launch in 3 days and all works fine, only thing i dislike is i need wait 4 weeks more to buy the game if i want include AB in my holiday megabuy... well, now is less mega because are few things from Matrix/Slitherine i miss and this year was a little... pssss at least until AB arrive

PD: maybe to skip some work you could use modder community, at least the art part, could be great if Matrix/Slitherine manage to made custom content official content, sometimes mods not only add value to a game, they are better than stock game (i think in FOGII and one mod that adds more type of units and improve graphics of units to).

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RE: C&C between allied units - 11/12/2018 4:44:47 PM   
Hghx-0

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hghx-0

But units should have their own 'pool' of other units that they are aware of, like it is now implemented in Combat Mission, and i was asking about this feature..


This can lead to new issues too. For example two units next to each other, looking at the same direction but seeing different enemies.



I mean this pool will be a pool of 'flags'. Considering these flags the game will show ceratain enemy units to each friendly unit, while others will remain FOWed. This list of flags (IDs?) that will be constantly updated, the information will flow among units in hierarchy, it also make sense for a hierachy itself, because now, if i get it right, the player doesn't benefit from having platoon/company kept in formation (except for the foramation).

For example, friendly unit has spotted an enemy AFV, it tries to inform its platoon members about it, the commander of the platoon tries to bring this information up to the company commander, which in his order informs its subordinates and superior commander.
The speed/type is modified by training/morale/distance/radio quality/weather

At least this is how i imagine this process could be designed from my dilettantish perspective.

< Message edited by Hghx-0 -- 11/12/2018 4:47:24 PM >

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Post #: 12
RE: C&C between allied units - 11/13/2018 5:32:50 PM   
A Canadian Cat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

This can lead to new issues too. For example two units next to each other, looking at the same direction but seeing different enemies.



But that's not a problem that's real life. Said second unit might have a view of the same treeline across the field but no see the enemy that the first unit has already spotted. Just because I have an unobstructed view of a tree line does not automatically mean I can see all enemy units located there - especially with my naked eyes.

(in reply to Veitikka)
Post #: 13
RE: C&C between allied units - 11/13/2018 8:40:19 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: A Canadian Cat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

This can lead to new issues too. For example two units next to each other, looking at the same direction but seeing different enemies.



But that's not a problem that's real life. Said second unit might have a view of the same treeline across the field but no see the enemy that the first unit has already spotted. Just because I have an unobstructed view of a tree line does not automatically mean I can see all enemy units located there - especially with my naked eyes.



In real life the units can have the means to communicate the sighting to others, sometimes even if they're not from the same formation and don't have radios. They can use tracers to mark targets, use hand signals etc. This should be simulated to some extent if every unit has its own pool of sightings. The previous poster posted some ideas how this could work. In the game there can be more than 300 units per side, and all sightings must be updated every few seconds. That will increase CPU usage, but it's quite impossible to say how much without trying it. The current system is rather well optimized after all these years, and this dramatically different approach would require us to ditch many parts of it. I'm not saying that we will never have separate spotting information for every individual unit, but the new system must be planned well before implementing the first iteration of it.


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RE: C&C between allied units - 11/14/2018 9:43:35 AM   
Hexagon


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Well, think that units spot a target and use radio to pass info to a HQ that use info to move units... now with modern tech a tank commander can see battlefield as we see it in game, if somebody spots everybody has the info in real time, but in pre 90s the info for a tank commander was "hey, we find X in Y map reference, be carefull".

Other point is attacking... here i think add an order like "hold fire until enemy is attacked" could help, whith this you prevent (specially in missile units) over 2 simultaneous attacks for same target when it flash in your units LOS... in 60s not a great diference but in 80s with bigger % of hit-kill with first attack.

You can have the attack ranges defined as you want but an enemy unit is not going to trigger a fist salvo of missiles-shells, simple who is in normal defensive posture is going to do the first attack, other vehicles are going to wait somebody attacks enemy, if nobody attacks because they are all in hold fire until attack in 2nd or 3rd spot check (6-9s) they can attack enemy free.

Key is have half vehicles ready to attack when spot and half vehicles ready to do it if first attack fails, with this you can as bonus control a little more ammo use because you can rotate the hold fire posture.

But i see this more in the improvements or new features, is not a motive to discard game specially because if game goes fine and we can see earlier periods the chaotic fire its a normal thing.

(in reply to Veitikka)
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RE: C&C between allied units - 11/15/2018 4:30:01 PM   
exsonic01

 

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Interesting, I also suggested similar thing in beta forum, discussing to introduction of friendly fire incident. I think devs were interested, but for now they don't have enough manpower and resource to develop. As you see, it is not a simple feature to put in the code.

Hopefully I wish they consider realistic information-sharing feature and even a small chance to induce friendly fire as a human error factor for this game, in the future.


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Post #: 16
RE: C&C between allied units - 11/15/2018 4:47:17 PM   
Hexagon


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Friendly fire... ummm maybe to have this you need apart HQ conection another value to made if you HQ conection is to low is a chance to made friendly appear as enemy.

Well, game has room to improvements and expect we can see and enjoy them.

(in reply to exsonic01)
Post #: 17
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