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Age of Exploration - 10/31/2018 4:56:31 AM   
sPzAbt653


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The Age of Exploration, 1495-1700
Mr. Sipres has provided an excellent map of the Americas [mini-map seen below] and I have started working on forming geographic areas from the time period [Aztec Empire, Mayan Empire, The Amazon, etc.], creating new Resource Icons, Unit Icons and Map Graphics [some of which can be seen below at right]. Some of this stuff and some of the rules are being taken from the 1976 SPI game 'Conquistador', but this won't be a clone of that due to differences in the game engines.
Hopefully at some point in the future we will end up with a scenario that will be a fun change of pace, something to take a break every now and then from tanks and planes [as the original game was to me]. I'm not an expert on the subject matter so I'm doing a lot of Wiki-ing as I go, and I am also no expert at SC, having only been around for the past two years. So all contributions and suggestions will be welcome.




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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/1/2018 6:02:48 PM   
PHalen


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Indeed an interesting change of pace & scenery!
Great initiative!
The SC scale should work well for this era.
Looking forward to see what eventually may come out.

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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/6/2018 3:09:41 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Yes, we'll see what might come out of this

One thing interesting so far is the lack of details concerning where all the Gold and Loot that the Spanish took came from. I've been reading many sites on Wiki that have to do with Spain conquering and looting, but except for Tenochtitlan in the Aztec Empire I haven't come across any specific sites. I guess the stuff was everywhere!

I tried using double depression hexes to represent the double impassable hexsides from the Conquistador map [at inset] but the result was kinda ugly, so I changed it to one partial depression hex along side a full depression hex.
What I like about these old school style graphics is that you know what they represent at a glance, although the 'clear' or 'open' terrain in this one looks a bit to me like 'snow' or 'frozen'.




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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/8/2018 4:35:33 AM   
Mike Dubost

 

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As for resource sites, I am surprised no one has mentioned Potosi/Cerro Rico. It was one of the richest silver strikes in the world. Depending on the scenario start date, you may want to use an event to make the resource start producing later since it was only discovered in 1545.


I would also like to suggest the use of convoys to simulate the great treasure fleets and allow the raiding mechanic to simulate the English Sea Dogs.


Please keep working on the mod. I would love to try it out!

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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/9/2018 12:41:32 AM   
sPzAbt653


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I have come across an article on the great Potosi Silver Mines, so that one is already on the map as seen below in the gold circle [zoomed out and scrunched down to decrease jpg size]. At upper left can also be seen the famous Treasure City of Cuzco.
I don't think I'd set dates for resources based on historical conquests because the idea for this campaign is to let the player create their own history. Of course, if all of the gold and silver is marked on the map, then there is no historical searching, so I am a little perplexed over that. Maybe if they aren't marked on the map then a representative counter could be placed upon discovery, but there is no stacking so that really wouldn't work [and I'm not arguing for stacking here!].

I have considered the convoy idea, and I haven't decided what to try first, but I have a nightmare about multitudes of convoy lines criss-crossing all over the oceans

I will keep working, it is a slow plod across the map re-designating each hex to a country, terrain type and weather zone [I'm trying a rookie idea of using weather zone graphics because they look much nicer than the existing jungle/forest/mountain, and there is no weather so maybe it will work]. It will be fun once we can start pushing counters around to see what will be needed to design.




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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/9/2018 1:27:08 PM   
TheBattlefield


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I have considered the convoy idea, and I haven't decided what to try first, but I have a nightmare about multitudes of convoy lines criss-crossing all over the oceans


In addition to some classic convoy routes, you could add additional script-based "raiding points" (dummy decision) to certain key positions. That would keep the map clear and offer an additional strategic dimension. I was planning something similar for the "Rise and Fall..." mod.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/photo_view.asp?file=0;4222908

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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/9/2018 1:30:51 PM   
Mike Dubost

 

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I’m an Engineer. We believe in simplifying assumptions. Back in the day in my college mass transfer class, they introduced us to the Navier-Stokes equation for mass transfer. It is a complicated partial differential equation. If you have enough time on a super-computer and a complete enough knowledge of starting conditions, you can figure out exactly how any given piece of air or liquid will move over time. Alternatively, you can figure out that in most cases a few terms are so significant that you can drop the others completely. By focusing on the vital few terms for open channel gravity flow or pumped flow in a circular cross-section pipe, you can do a good enough job to design an irrigation ditch to get water from the river to your crops or a pipeline to get oil from your tanker to your storage tank.

In that spirit, I think we don’t need a complex web of convoys to do a good enough job to simulate the treasure fleets. The Spanish only ran a few fleets per year, and had some common starting points and way points. So, by having a minor capitol on the west map edge for Manilla, and a port there, we can run one convoy line from Peru to Manilla for the Pacific fleets. One convoy line from Veracruz to your Spain ports can simulate the Atlantic fleets. OK, not perfect, but it will add this important element of the 16th Century English-Spanish conflicts.

As for the resource timing. I do see the point on fixed dates. Given that some mines were not in production in 1492, though it does not make historical sense to me to have them operational on day 1. So, for another idea, how about an event with a % chance of firing each turn and a “safety date” some time after the historical opening date of the mines? This will make it worth while to go for the mines quickly, and also make each game slightly different.


< Message edited by Mike Dubost -- 11/9/2018 1:36:43 PM >

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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/9/2018 4:19:54 PM   
Taxman66


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You could have a bunch of mines on the map set at a value of 0(zero).

Option 1 (if possible): At set up, the game randomly determines which mine sites are real and which aren't. Then have a whatever you want trigger the true mine sites to have a value greater than 0.

Option 2: A trigger (say a survey unit or ENG unit of some sort ends its turn on a potential mine site) randomly determines if the site is good/active or false. If good the value is increased.
The random determination has fail safes to guarantee a certain number of sites will be active and another fail safe to ensure that not too many sites are good.

-----
With either option when a false site is determined perhaps you could either visually remove the mine graphic or add a supplemental graphic indicating it was false.


< Message edited by Taxman66 -- 11/9/2018 4:23:38 PM >


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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/9/2018 6:13:17 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Nice Raiding Point graphic you have there Konstantin ! I do like the static points for raiding as opposed to convoy lines [as in 653N !].

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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/9/2018 6:31:20 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

The Spanish only ran a few fleets per year

I had come across mention of this and am expecting to come across more details as research progresses, or experts come forward! Something like you outlined for the East and West trade routes.

quote:

how about an event with a % chance of firing each turn

Yes, all of the Treasure locations should have a percent chance of discovery, followed by a percent chance of depletion. The chance of Potosi being discovered will start when it is occupied, it doesn't make good sense that it wouldn't be able to be discovered until it historically began operating, unless there were some physical reason why there was no silver there until a certain date, lol.

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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/9/2018 6:43:16 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Taxman - 'a bunch of mines on the map ... the game randomly determines which mine sites are real'. I believe this is doable with the Resource script, and I like the idea because I had been pondering the fact that the Spanish had no idea where the gold was and used the Gestapo treatment on the natives to try and find out. Sometimes the natives would give false locations to send the Spaniards on false explorations. So having the locations not completely known initially is a good idea.

Having different units detect hexes or be detected in hexes is something that we can't do. This has been aggravating me, because I like the Conquistador game mechanic of requiring Colonists for settlements and ports. In SC3, we could have soldiers mining the mines.

As far as guaranteeing a certain number of resources being active [not too many, not too few] that might be a question to ask Bill if he can tell us how it might be done, but initially I would go with a percentage and then monitor it during play testing to see how it goes.

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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/9/2018 7:09:41 PM   
Taxman66


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Addressing the 2nd point first:
1. After x number of mines are good then change the chance for finding another good mine to 1% or 0%.
2. If the number of good mines + unchecked mines <= desired number of mines then change discovery chance to 99% or 100%.

Idea to make discovery chance only available to a particular unit type:
Use air combat values. Give the 'survey' unit an air attack of 5 or 10. Put a 1 strength 'unit' with 0 movement and air defense of 1 on the mine hex. When the unit is 'destroyed' you trigger the check to see if the mine is good or false.


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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/9/2018 7:16:22 PM   
Taxman66


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Another option for the system:

The mine sites are fixed.
The mine sites are only accessable by air movement.
The miners are 'air' units with a very short range.
The miners only appear with certain DEs or on certain dates with some variability.
When a unit (only miners will be able) resides on the mine it produce mpp.

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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/23/2018 10:15:15 AM   
sPzAbt653


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I've taken Mr. Sipres' advice and created different looks for Jungle and Forest [lighter green] terrain. The terrain and area hex assignments are roughed out so now some units are being pushed around while the mechanics are being considered.




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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/23/2018 10:43:18 AM   
sPzAbt653


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The game situation should be that European countries are competing for discovering and conquering areas and resources in the New World. So this means multiple sides, but we can only have two. Now we have a pickle for the game engine. How do we do it? We have to account for Spain, England, France, Portugal, Denmark, and Holland [which should all be Majors] plus all the areas in the New World [23 of them], and a minimum of one from each side must be belligerent at start.

Currently, roughed in: Spain is Player One. A 'Non-Player' controls everybody else and is Player Two. New World areas are 100% Non-Player and can therefore be attacked/invaded and conquered by Spain. England, France, Portugal, Denmark and Holland are inactive majors and it would be nice if they could swing to either side, but I'm pretty sure they can't [Russia can't go Axis in the standard campaign, right?].
I don't really like it all, because each area has to have a Capital, and if that Capital falls so does the rest of that area, when really the attacker should have to conquer every resource and hold it.
Also, if England, France, Portugal, Denmark or Holland joins the Non-Player, any Resources they capture benefit the Non-Player instead of the country doing the capturing.

I'll keep working on it but thought I would throw this all out there in case anyone has some ideas or thoughts.




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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/23/2018 3:55:26 PM   
SIPRES


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The game situation should be that European countries are competing for discovering and conquering areas and resources in the New World. So this means multiple sides, but we can only have two. Now we have a pickle for the game engine. How do we do it? We have to account for Spain, England, France, Portugal, Denmark, and Holland [which should all be Majors] plus all the areas in the New World [23 of them], and a minimum of one from each side must be belligerent at start.

Currently, roughed in: Spain is Player One. A 'Non-Player' controls everybody else and is Player Two. New World areas are 100% Non-Player and can therefore be attacked/invaded and conquered by Spain. England, France, Portugal, Denmark and Holland are inactive majors and it would be nice if they could swing to either side, but I'm pretty sure they can't [Russia can't go Axis in the standard campaign, right?].
You can make a major surrender to itself "surrender_2" script.
example for spain:
#COUNTRY_ID= 99
#RECIPIENT_ID= 99
then a "mobilization_3" script to switch side (Axis or Allied)
I got this advice from Bill, I did try it and it works well.

I don't really like it all, because each area has to have a Capital, and if that Capital falls so does the rest of that area, when really the attacker should have to conquer every resource and hold it.
Also, if England, France, Portugal, Denmark or Holland joins the Non-Player, any Resources they capture benefit the Non-Player instead of the country doing the capturing.

I'll keep working on it but thought I would throw this all out there in case anyone has some ideas or thoughts.

Maybe 2 "sides" as follow:

South America/central America theater:
Spain side A vs Portugal side B
North America theater:
England side A vs France + Holland + Denmark side B





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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/24/2018 7:43:16 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

You can make a major surrender to itself then a script to switch side

*trumpets*

quote:

Maybe 2 "sides" as follow:

Thanks very much for the suggestion. It's definitely no good the way it is now. Its such a complex thing that all I can think of doing is coming up with an idea, making the change, then playing a few turns to see how it works out.

Currently considering making all of the New World part of the 'Non-Player' Player 2 [P2], and all of the Majors on the same side as a Player 1 [P1], then have the player let the computer play everybody but the Spanish. This will allow all the majors to gain from capturing resources, and eliminate the surrendering of all the minor countries. Plus the added benefit that if the game gets boring, the player can switch to another country to play.

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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/24/2018 4:42:30 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

Currently considering making all of the New World part of the 'Non-Player' Player 2 [P2], and all of the Majors on the same side as a Player 1 [P1], then have the player let the computer play everybody but the Spanish.

Thinking it thru further, this doesn't make much sense either. *sigh*

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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/24/2018 5:32:24 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Any suggestions on what graphic to use for Transports, AV's and AVL's ? The stock ones look out of place in this 1500-1700 scheme, and when I tried using Ancient Nato's it seemed too easy to lose track of what was what when scanning the map.




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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/24/2018 6:46:29 PM   
sPzAbt653


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I whipped up these little fellers, good enough or too ugly ?




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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/24/2018 8:49:58 PM   
SIPRES


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I whipped up these little fellers, good enough or too ugly ?





Maybe this one for AVL?





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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/25/2018 6:13:59 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Although the front sail didn't make it thru the size reduction process too well.




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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/26/2018 3:37:26 PM   
TheBattlefield


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Although the front sail didn't make it thru the size reduction process too well.





Why so tiny? The hexfield, even the default counters are so big!

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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/29/2018 3:35:59 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

I don't really like it all, because each area has to have a Capital, and if that Capital falls so does the rest of that area, when really the attacker should have to conquer every resource and hold it.

2.4.1. Campaign > Edit Campaign Data
Select the Victory Basis to be Capitals or
Objectives. The Capitals option means countries
surrender or are liberated when their Capital
and all Alternate Capitals have been captured.
The Objectives option means that the standard
surrender and liberation rules are disabled
.


This is very interesting, and I am excited to try this and see how it works out for this scenario.

Another item we need to be creative about is how to reward the player for making Discoveries. I don't see where we have any type of 'Victory Points' as in other games. Below is what might be seen on the map as part of a list of things to do/discover, and they could add to the players National Morale.




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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/29/2018 10:31:43 AM   
Taxman66


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Provide a MPP bonus for the discoveries as a reward based on prestige.

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RE: Age of Exploration - 11/29/2018 11:14:45 AM   
sPzAbt653


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That might be better than raising NM, thanks!

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RE: Age of Exploration - 12/19/2018 4:33:40 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

Northern Ireland is part of the UK homeland. Could you make a 1 hex city/port part of the major power so as to have a higher value?

I did that on the mainland but haven't filled the map in enough to see what happens. [Non-Player Major Capital is in northern Canada]

quote:

Or provide HQs to the minor/colony so as to push a higher supply value

Not concerned with Side 2 at this point, trying to help Side 1 [Spain]. I could post it as it is so if you had interest you could poke around with it. We can conquer Hispaniola and that's about it as everything else is still being worked on.

quote:

You could also turn the colonies into weak major powers. The new version is allowing 10 majors now.

That would interfere with MPP collection too much, I think. Plus even ten isn't enough. Currently there are Majors of Non-Player, Denmark, France, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and England.

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RE: Age of Exploration - 12/20/2018 4:38:19 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

You could also turn the colonies into weak major powers. The new version is allowing 10 majors now.


quote:

That would interfere with MPP collection too much, I think. Plus even ten isn't enough. Currently there are Majors of Non-Player, Denmark, France, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and England.


It could, but if it helps there is some wriggle room here as not every Major has to have the same MPP value per resource.

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RE: Age of Exploration - 12/21/2018 5:54:25 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Since we've had several folks involved in discussions on this matter over the past couple days, I dedicated today to resolving the issue so that we can move past this for now. I certainly greatly appreciate everyone's thoughts on the subject.
The main point is that full supply is possible only 'If the resource is in direct connection via rail to a friendly Major’s Capital, Industrial Center or Primary Supply Center' [7.13.2]. My previous experience with attempting to get SC to bypass this rule for Antwerp and Marseilles in NW Europe WWII proved folly. So be it.
For design reasons, for this scenario I am against putting any Major Capital in the New World, and I am definitely not putting rails in. However, if this ever becomes an issue again, I suppose there could be Major Capitals in the New World along with Rails [which could be made graphically invisible].

But for now I think we can go with 'Supply in the New World is never going to be better than 5'. If we want better we can fudge it by shipping our units back to Europe for a couple turns to recoup. Like I said earlier, this isn't a killer, it's just a little different from my previous experience with SC where I spend time making sure my units are at Supply Levels of 10-12

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RE: Age of Exploration - 12/21/2018 1:14:29 PM   
Taxman66


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Why can't HQs solve the problem? Give each minor/colony a free HQ.

What about changing the rule that only allows reinforcement to 8 if supply = 5, is that hard coded?

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